| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza 08:17 - Oct 22 with 7764 views | DJR |
It seems to me that, following the controversy over responsibility for the hospital attack, media focus in this country (and seemingly also on this board) has moved away from the plight of civilians in Gaza.
It also appears to be the case that allowing 20 lorries into Gaza is somehow thought to ease the conscience of Western nations.
And what about the situation of foreign nationals in Gaza who are no longer talked about?
And, leaving aside the question of collective punishment (itself a war crime), I am not sure I have heard any claims in this country that attacks on civilians are themselves war crimes.
President Zelensky has just called an attack by Russia on a civilian building a war crime but when it came to, say, the attack on a church in Gaza a couple of days ago, sheltering Muslims and Christians and killing 16 people, there was very little media coverage, and to my knowledge no claims that it was a war crime.
Sadly, these days it is only bodies like the UN and aid organisations that are raising concerns.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2023 12:35]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 06:24 - Oct 23 with 2641 views | Darth_Koont |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 by matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |
Actually, it’s odd that there hasn’t been a lot more focus on the decades-long oppression of civilians living on the Eastern Mediterranean coast.
But each to their own. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 08:56 - Oct 23 with 2586 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 by matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |
As the OP, I am not sure I like the innuendo in the second sentence in your post.
On TWTD, I have condemned the Hamas attacks, described them as pogroms, supported Israel's right of self-defence, and shown my solidarity with Jewish people in this country when faced with increased antisemitism.
But this doesn't mean, in my view, that Israel can do what it wants or should not be held to account.
On your first sentence, I think the location of the area so close to Europe plays the largest part in the media focus, as does the presence of journalists and aid organisations and the like in Gaza, which means we are seeing the consequences on the ground.
As I also mentioned on TWTD, I don't think Israel actions are necessarily any worse than those of the Western nations involved in, say, the Iraq war where there were 650,000 excess deaths in three years. But we never saw the impact of things on the ground in that war because it was so far away.
And more generally, I have condemned on TWTD the fact that the media in this country ignores what Orwell called "inconvenient facts" in other parts of the world. Two which spring to mind and which I have mentioned on TWTD are the Western-supported Saudi bombings in Yemen, and the recent ethnic cleansing of 100,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.
In Israel's case, I think it is impossible to ignore "inconvenient facts", not least because of the possibility of the conflict destabilising the whole region. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 8:57]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:15 - Oct 23 with 2523 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 23:04 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
Easier but the off handedness of the response would not have emerged so clearly, one of the more thorough interviewers, Victoria Derbyshire. And there was worse to follow:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/news/israel-palestine-bbc-naftali-bennett-b2433
'Mr Bennett accused the corporation of “taking the side” of Gaza.
“From the very beginning of this interview, you are asking me about them. It seems that you care little about our side,” he said, as Ms Derbyshire denied the claim.
“You care only about one side, but that is the BBC way. Let me tell you something, we are here protecting you, we don’t need your protection.
“The BBC is lacking moral clarity... shame on you.”' |
It is not clear to me that the BBC coverage is any different to, say, Sky's.
Maybe in the case of the Israeli government it is that the BBC has a global reach, with things like the World Service and BBC World. But in this country, the right wing media are using the current conflict as yet another excuse to bash the BBC. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 10:17]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:27 - Oct 23 with 2482 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:15 - Oct 23 by DJR |
It is not clear to me that the BBC coverage is any different to, say, Sky's.
Maybe in the case of the Israeli government it is that the BBC has a global reach, with things like the World Service and BBC World. But in this country, the right wing media are using the current conflict as yet another excuse to bash the BBC. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 10:17]
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For context, the "Shame on you" comment referred to The BBC reporting the hospital explosion as an IDF bomb. That suggestion was completely untrue, The BBC reported both the Israeli explanation, and the claims of Hamas.
It did rather feel that the BBC was being accused of being impartial in its reporting. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 11:39]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:32 - Oct 23 with 2477 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 08:56 - Oct 23 by DJR |
As the OP, I am not sure I like the innuendo in the second sentence in your post.
On TWTD, I have condemned the Hamas attacks, described them as pogroms, supported Israel's right of self-defence, and shown my solidarity with Jewish people in this country when faced with increased antisemitism.
But this doesn't mean, in my view, that Israel can do what it wants or should not be held to account.
On your first sentence, I think the location of the area so close to Europe plays the largest part in the media focus, as does the presence of journalists and aid organisations and the like in Gaza, which means we are seeing the consequences on the ground.
As I also mentioned on TWTD, I don't think Israel actions are necessarily any worse than those of the Western nations involved in, say, the Iraq war where there were 650,000 excess deaths in three years. But we never saw the impact of things on the ground in that war because it was so far away.
And more generally, I have condemned on TWTD the fact that the media in this country ignores what Orwell called "inconvenient facts" in other parts of the world. Two which spring to mind and which I have mentioned on TWTD are the Western-supported Saudi bombings in Yemen, and the recent ethnic cleansing of 100,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh.
In Israel's case, I think it is impossible to ignore "inconvenient facts", not least because of the possibility of the conflict destabilising the whole region. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 8:57]
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This from the Associated Press.
The U.N. humanitarian agency said Saturday’s convoy carried about 4% of an average day’s imports before the war and “a fraction of what is needed after 13 days of complete siege.”
EDIT: this was meant to be a general comment following on from my OP, not one following on from the post of mine to which it is attached. [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 10:35]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:49 - Oct 23 with 2443 views | Ryorry |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 by matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |
Ever stopped to consider why the news is called the news? |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:41 - Oct 23 with 2387 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 by matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |
Well b*gger me dead. That's provocative.
Come on then, enlighten us, you clearly have an differing opinion as to why. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:53 - Oct 23 with 2359 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 00:58 - Oct 23 by matteoblue |
It's odd why there's such a big focus on Gaza, when there are so many countries with much suffering. I do wonder why that is. |
OK. Please do inform us why. If this is pointing out that there are dire situations in Africa, Asia and South America that never got the coverage they deserve, I take the point. But if it is saying this is getting any different coverage from the terror attacks in Israel, France, and Norway, and wars in Ukraine, Afghanistan, or any other conflict that is as close to or within Europe, please do elaborate. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:54 - Oct 23 with 2358 views | leitrimblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:41 - Oct 23 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Well b*gger me dead. That's provocative.
Come on then, enlighten us, you clearly have an differing opinion as to why. |
He believes the oppression of Gaza is a lie/narrative connected to antisemitism.... You couldn't make it up |  | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 12:05 - Oct 23 with 2326 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:54 - Oct 23 by leitrimblue |
He believes the oppression of Gaza is a lie/narrative connected to antisemitism.... You couldn't make it up |
Is that actually so? It would take the same amount of mental gymnastics as denying the Hamas attack to come to that conclusion. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 12:10 - Oct 23 with 2316 views | leitrimblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 12:05 - Oct 23 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is that actually so? It would take the same amount of mental gymnastics as denying the Hamas attack to come to that conclusion. |
Yer, he said it on the why is America so pro Israel thread last week | | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:38 - Oct 23 with 2264 views | noggin |
The UN are saying that half of all homes in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed. Where will all these people live when this 'self defence' is over? |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:47 - Oct 23 with 2229 views | Blueschev |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:38 - Oct 23 by noggin |
The UN are saying that half of all homes in Gaza have been damaged or destroyed. Where will all these people live when this 'self defence' is over? |
I can't help but think that population transfer is the end goal. |  | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:52 - Oct 23 with 2202 views | giant_stow |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:47 - Oct 23 by Blueschev |
I can't help but think that population transfer is the end goal. |
So many people getting killed in Gaza - beeb saying 436 in 24 hours. This can't continue unopposed by the west - for self-interested reasons if not moral ones -how long before the whole thing blows? The Israeli govt truly is playing with fire. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:56 - Oct 23 with 2177 views | lowhouseblue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:52 - Oct 23 by giant_stow |
So many people getting killed in Gaza - beeb saying 436 in 24 hours. This can't continue unopposed by the west - for self-interested reasons if not moral ones -how long before the whole thing blows? The Israeli govt truly is playing with fire. |
to be fair, the beeb says "hamas run ministry says ..." i don't think the precise numbers are otherwise verified. (not to question the death and suffering). |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:59 - Oct 23 with 2158 views | giant_stow |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:56 - Oct 23 by lowhouseblue |
to be fair, the beeb says "hamas run ministry says ..." i don't think the precise numbers are otherwise verified. (not to question the death and suffering). |
Fair point, but even if its an unreliable figure, the Israelis have said they're upping the bombing, so the point hangs together in rough terms. Plus I spose that right or wrong, this is the figure that other people in the middle east will accept an believ.e. | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:59 - Oct 23 with 2153 views | Blueschev |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:52 - Oct 23 by giant_stow |
So many people getting killed in Gaza - beeb saying 436 in 24 hours. This can't continue unopposed by the west - for self-interested reasons if not moral ones -how long before the whole thing blows? The Israeli govt truly is playing with fire. |
The problem is, despite the platitudes from neighbouring states, nobody cares about the plight of the Palestinians. Israel is a useful bogeyman for the dictatorships in the region as it diverts popular anger away from domestic issues. | | | |
| [Redacted] on 14:13 - Oct 23 with 2095 views | victorywilhappen |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 10:32 - Oct 22 by WeWereZombies |
Neither you nor I can expect to see into the collective minds of Hamas and their backers, who might have a collection of different aims - some elements in Hamas no doubt saw the massacre earlier this month as revenge, others might have seen it as a tactic to draw Israel into war in the, hopefully mistaken belief that Arab nations would join on their side, the militant regime in charge of Iran may have wanted to unsettle Saudi Arabia, young Hamas commanders may just have wanted to keep the supply of Palestinians being born with a reason to hate Israel stoked...there are no good reasons obviously.
But before you can ask what the outcome is I think you have to ask,, at which point in time ? Because, as the article makes clear, an Israeli military victory will not be the end of things. Even an externally imposed two state solution would have disputes that rumbled on for decades. |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 14:19 - Oct 23 with 2075 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 13:56 - Oct 23 by lowhouseblue |
to be fair, the beeb says "hamas run ministry says ..." i don't think the precise numbers are otherwise verified. (not to question the death and suffering). |
Actually, the latest World Health Organisation report, dated 21 October, reports 4385 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza.
That is roughly on a par with what the Hamas run ministry was saying then: and they are today reporting at least 5,087 which also seems in line with the WHO figures, the "at least" presumably covering some of the 1,400 whom the WHO says in its report are trapped under collapsed buildings.
Here is a link to the report.
https://www.emro.who.int/images/stories/palestine/WHO_oPt_Sitrep_6s.pdf?ua=1 [Post edited 23 Oct 2023 14:48]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 15:14 - Oct 23 with 1999 views | WeWereZombies |
Thank you, that is an interesting, if very depressing, article. The only viable solutions that seem to come out of it are for the United Nations to impose a peacekeeping force irrespective of Israel or Hamas' wishes and there would be insurmountable difficulties in implementing that; or the current Israeli strategy of declaring war on Hamas (Palestinian Jihad if Hamas are weakened beyond credible survival) every few years and claiming outright victory whatever the result.
For students of guerrilla warfare the next few weeks will be fascinating, for the rest of us horrifying and abominable in their effect on civilians. |  |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 18:57 - Oct 23 with 1935 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 11:54 - Oct 23 by leitrimblue |
He believes the oppression of Gaza is a lie/narrative connected to antisemitism.... You couldn't make it up |
Christ on a bike..... | |
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 17:55 - Oct 24 with 1826 views | DJR |
I mentioned in the OP the position of foreign nationals in Gaza.
This is what Humza Yousaf has said today, but I doubt it will get much coverage.
"Every night, Nadia and I go to bed, barely sleeping as we count down the hours until the morning, waiting anxiously for a message from my mother-in-law to tell us they have survived the night.
Throughout the day, the 100 people in the family home, must ration their food. The adults barely eat, my mother-in-law only ate cashew nuts yesterday, they ration so the children in the house don’t end up malnourished, but time is running out.
I spoke to my mother-in-law this morning. She feels helpless and has lost hope. She told me she feels as if the UK government has forgotten about her.
Please don’t interpret my point as a political one, it is not. She is a UK citizen, yet the only communication she receives from the Foreign Office is a text message telling her what she already knows - that the Rafah crossing is closed.
What she needs is the UK government, the prime minister, the foreign secretary, to spend every minute of every day demanding that their allies in Egypt and Israel open the Rafah crossing and open it now, to allow those UK citizens – all of them who are trapped in Gaza – safe passage and for them to return home to their families.
I made this very point to the prime minister this afternoon when we spoke on the phone. And reiterated the Scottish government’s call for a ceasefire, for more aid, including fuel, to be allowed in to Gaza and of course reiterated that the PM had our support in doing everything he can to bring British hostages back home." [Post edited 24 Oct 2023 18:05]
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| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 18:00 - Oct 24 with 1813 views | DJR |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 17:55 - Oct 24 by DJR |
I mentioned in the OP the position of foreign nationals in Gaza.
This is what Humza Yousaf has said today, but I doubt it will get much coverage.
"Every night, Nadia and I go to bed, barely sleeping as we count down the hours until the morning, waiting anxiously for a message from my mother-in-law to tell us they have survived the night.
Throughout the day, the 100 people in the family home, must ration their food. The adults barely eat, my mother-in-law only ate cashew nuts yesterday, they ration so the children in the house don’t end up malnourished, but time is running out.
I spoke to my mother-in-law this morning. She feels helpless and has lost hope. She told me she feels as if the UK government has forgotten about her.
Please don’t interpret my point as a political one, it is not. She is a UK citizen, yet the only communication she receives from the Foreign Office is a text message telling her what she already knows - that the Rafah crossing is closed.
What she needs is the UK government, the prime minister, the foreign secretary, to spend every minute of every day demanding that their allies in Egypt and Israel open the Rafah crossing and open it now, to allow those UK citizens – all of them who are trapped in Gaza – safe passage and for them to return home to their families.
I made this very point to the prime minister this afternoon when we spoke on the phone. And reiterated the Scottish government’s call for a ceasefire, for more aid, including fuel, to be allowed in to Gaza and of course reiterated that the PM had our support in doing everything he can to bring British hostages back home." [Post edited 24 Oct 2023 18:05]
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And when it comes to the plight of civilians in both Israel and Gaza, I thought this was a nice story.
"Humza Yousaf also spoke about meeting the mother of Bernard Cowan, a Scot who died in the Hamas attacks on Israel earlier this month.
He met Irene Cowan when he attended a service of solidarity at Giffnock Newton Mearns Synagogue in East Renfrewshire on 12 October.
Scotland’s first minister said:
"We held each other, we cried and shared in each other’s grief.
She is an incredible woman who despite her own heartache told me that she was praying for my in-laws and for all the innocent men, women and children trapped in Gaza.
So let us agree, that too many mothers and fathers have lost their children, too many children have become orphaned, and that is why an immediate ceasefire must be agreed to." | | | |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 19:18 - Oct 24 with 1768 views | WeWereZombies |
| Israel to increase attacks on Gaza on 18:00 - Oct 24 by DJR |
And when it comes to the plight of civilians in both Israel and Gaza, I thought this was a nice story.
"Humza Yousaf also spoke about meeting the mother of Bernard Cowan, a Scot who died in the Hamas attacks on Israel earlier this month.
He met Irene Cowan when he attended a service of solidarity at Giffnock Newton Mearns Synagogue in East Renfrewshire on 12 October.
Scotland’s first minister said:
"We held each other, we cried and shared in each other’s grief.
She is an incredible woman who despite her own heartache told me that she was praying for my in-laws and for all the innocent men, women and children trapped in Gaza.
So let us agree, that too many mothers and fathers have lost their children, too many children have become orphaned, and that is why an immediate ceasefire must be agreed to." |
I remember the story of the murder of Bernard Cowan from the BBC website a few days ago. Nothing can bring people back but we can all do our utmost to heal what has happened and go forward together. | |
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