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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257390 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Nov 10 with 3609 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:19 - Nov 10 by eireblue

This feels like it is getting a bit personal and emotive, and I don’t want to react in kind, as someone once said, be the change you want to see, so I am going to boycott this part of the discussion.


It really isn't. How bizarre that you wish to infer this from text!

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 10 with 3571 viewsClapham_Junction

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:30 - Nov 10 by BanksterDebtSlave

It really isn't. How bizarre that you wish to infer this from text!


In recent posts to eireblue, you've said:

"Thanks for clearing up that in all circumstances you support state military backed violence to win through"

"You must have been very disappointed about the outcomes in Cuba, Vietnam and for the Russians in Afghanistan"

"You seem to believe that with might being right that brutal suppression by the state and associated collateral damage/death is a cost worth paying"

"Oh and your beach holiday reference in light of what has and is happening in Sri Lanka was vile. "

If this isn't personal, I'm not sure what is?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 10 with 3443 viewsDJR

Interesting passages below from the following link (which indicate a row-back from what Biden said a a couple of weeks ago), and we even have Blinken saying today that too many Palestinians have died. The problem, though, is that the proposed humanitarian pauses won't make any difference at all to the continued suffering.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-dea

The U.S. intelligence community has growing confidence that reports on the death toll from health authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza are roughly accurate, U.S. officials said.

On Wednesday, Barbara Leaf, assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs, testified on Capitol Hill that the total death toll in Gaza could be higher. “We think they are very high, frankly, and it could be that they are even higher than are being cited,” she said.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2023 21:11]
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Comment peut-on arrêter la fin prématurée des vies Israéliens et Palestiniens? on 21:12 - Nov 10 with 3412 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 10 by DJR

Interesting passages below from the following link (which indicate a row-back from what Biden said a a couple of weeks ago), and we even have Blinken saying today that too many Palestinians have died. The problem, though, is that the proposed humanitarian pauses won't make any difference at all to the continued suffering.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-dea

The U.S. intelligence community has growing confidence that reports on the death toll from health authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza are roughly accurate, U.S. officials said.

On Wednesday, Barbara Leaf, assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern Affairs, testified on Capitol Hill that the total death toll in Gaza could be higher. “We think they are very high, frankly, and it could be that they are even higher than are being cited,” she said.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2023 21:11]


And it looks like France is taking a lead on pressurising Israel:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67356581

'Israel must stop killing babies and women in Gaza, French President Emmanuel Macron has told the BBC.

In an exclusive interview at the Élysée Palace, he said there was "no justification" for the bombing, saying a ceasefire would benefit Israel.

While recognising Israel's right to protect itself, "we do urge them to stop this bombing" in Gaza.

But he also stressed that France "clearly condemns" the "terrorist" actions of Hamas.'

Edit: New thread title
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:06]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:15 - Nov 10 with 3416 viewsDJR

Comment peut-on arrêter la fin prématurée des vies Israéliens et Palestiniens? on 21:12 - Nov 10 by WeWereZombies

And it looks like France is taking a lead on pressurising Israel:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67356581

'Israel must stop killing babies and women in Gaza, French President Emmanuel Macron has told the BBC.

In an exclusive interview at the Élysée Palace, he said there was "no justification" for the bombing, saying a ceasefire would benefit Israel.

While recognising Israel's right to protect itself, "we do urge them to stop this bombing" in Gaza.

But he also stressed that France "clearly condemns" the "terrorist" actions of Hamas.'

Edit: New thread title
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:06]


That's good to hear. But in this country there will be silence from the major parties unless the US changes its stance.

Of course, such calls may not have any effect on Netanyahu, but in my view they are the right thing to do, if like me, you don't have any skin in the game. And it mirrors what many international organisations and charities are calling for.
[Post edited 10 Nov 2023 21:20]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:52 - Nov 10 with 3384 viewsSwansea_Blue

Comment peut-on arrêter la fin prématurée des vies Israéliens et Palestiniens? on 21:12 - Nov 10 by WeWereZombies

And it looks like France is taking a lead on pressurising Israel:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67356581

'Israel must stop killing babies and women in Gaza, French President Emmanuel Macron has told the BBC.

In an exclusive interview at the Élysée Palace, he said there was "no justification" for the bombing, saying a ceasefire would benefit Israel.

While recognising Israel's right to protect itself, "we do urge them to stop this bombing" in Gaza.

But he also stressed that France "clearly condemns" the "terrorist" actions of Hamas.'

Edit: New thread title
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:06]


It's not hard is it? I'm not sure why it's taken so long to come out and say 'killing civilians indiscriminately is bad'.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:08 - Nov 11 with 3300 viewsDJR

How can this be justified?

The al-Shifa hospital director, Muhammad Abu Salmiya, has warned “we are minutes away from imminent death” with patients dying “by the minute”.

Speaking from inside the besieged facility in Gaza City to Al Jazeera, he said:

All I can say is that we’ve started to lose lives. Patients are dying by the minute, victims and wounded are also dying – even babies in the incubators.

We lost a baby in the incubator, we also lost a young man in the intensive care unit.

The hospital compound is cordoned off and the buildings of the hospital are targeted. Any moving person within the compound is targeted. The Israeli occupation forces are outside, preventing any person to move…

We are totally cut off from the whole world, we are minutes away from imminent death.

He added that the hospital has been left without power, internet and water and medical supplies.
[Post edited 11 Nov 2023 9:11]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:12 - Nov 11 with 3251 viewsleitrimblue

Think you may have yer answer
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/10/florida-republican-michelle-salz
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 11 with 3208 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:52 - Nov 10 by Swansea_Blue

It's not hard is it? I'm not sure why it's taken so long to come out and say 'killing civilians indiscriminately is bad'.


The Palestinian solidarity and peace demonstrations have been an object lesson in why it’s hard to protest against this — and no doubt will be again today.

They’ve been ridiculously characterised as hate marches or that Free Palestine means “wipe Israel off the map!” All of which has long been the state propaganda line towards those who see Palestinian human rights as real but consistently ignored and criminally breached with the result of thousands of innocent lives tossed aside and millions turned into refugees.

There will be hundreds of thousands out today. And I have no doubt any and all incidents will be used to turn the march into being about supporting Hamas and representing an existential threat to British Jews by those who have been pushing similar for years towards pro-Palestinians. But as we’ve seen so far from the demonstrations, the vast majority are there to support peace and there will be many Jewish people taking part too.

But if you indicate support for Palestinians on their own terms or like Macron you challenge Israel’s “right to self-defence” through indiscriminate mass killing then you’ll quickly find yourself on the wrong side and you’ll have anything and everything thrown at you.

The difference with Macron taking the stance is that it elevates it to the state and international level where Netanyahu and the far-right supporters will have to accuse Macron or the French state of being Hamas supporters or antisemites. That will look very silly very quickly.

So it seems a very significant step in helping bring the West to its senses and standing up for both sets of civilians. And actually aligning with the people in the West who are predominantly in favour of a ceasefire and simply haven’t been buying the hardline Israeli/US/UK reasoning.

Free Palestine! Ceasefire now!

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:56 - Nov 11 with 3162 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:12 - Nov 11 by leitrimblue

Think you may have yer answer
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/10/florida-republican-michelle-salz


There should have been a ceasefire and universal pressure towards it as soon as the genocide talk became normalised by the Israeli government and its supporters.

Especially with the clear evidence of genocidal intent in the criminal bombardment and illegal collective punishment meted out.

People wonder how this stuff still happens around the world despite the clear lessons from the past. It’s because people lie to themselves and to others in their own self-interest and will justify any horror as a result, whether you are barbaric Hamas terrorists and supporters or the Israeli far-right state terrorists and supporters.

But these extremist have nothing to say and are in no way helping towards peace in the region. We need to start calling them out for what they are — ethno-religious fundamentalists and supremacists who see their own beliefs and ideologies as more important than real lives.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:39 - Nov 11 with 3103 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:56 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont

There should have been a ceasefire and universal pressure towards it as soon as the genocide talk became normalised by the Israeli government and its supporters.

Especially with the clear evidence of genocidal intent in the criminal bombardment and illegal collective punishment meted out.

People wonder how this stuff still happens around the world despite the clear lessons from the past. It’s because people lie to themselves and to others in their own self-interest and will justify any horror as a result, whether you are barbaric Hamas terrorists and supporters or the Israeli far-right state terrorists and supporters.

But these extremist have nothing to say and are in no way helping towards peace in the region. We need to start calling them out for what they are — ethno-religious fundamentalists and supremacists who see their own beliefs and ideologies as more important than real lives.


Got a feeling there's gonna be a lot of people questioning how they found themselves on such the wrong side of history in the coming weeks and years
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:01 - Nov 11 with 3070 viewsDJR



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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:27 - Nov 11 with 2982 viewsDJR

It's getting desperate. This was posted earlier today by Physicians for Human Rights Israel.

"The red line has been crossed. Following a month of aerial bombardment of civilian and medical infrastructure, a severe siege, and a ban on the entry of critical equipment for the continued operation of hospitals – all hope seems lost. The destruction and killing have reached an unfathomable scale. We demand an immediate ceasefire and an end to the assault in a last effort to prevent the further killing of thousands of civilians.

Over the last few hours, we’ve received horrifying reports from Shifa Hospital. There’s no electricity, no water, no oxygen. Some of the medical staff have escaped due to the real threat to their lives, leaving behind hundreds of sick and wounded patients with no treatment or means of escape. Many hundreds of patients and medical personnel are currently in the Hospital, in addition to some 15 thousand internally displaced people.

Military bombardments have damaged the intensive care unit as well as the only generator that remained operational until now. As a result of the lack of electricity, we can report that the neonatal intensive care unit has stopped working. Two premature infants have died, and there is a real risk to the lives of 37 other premature infants. The Hospital is besieged, with no option to bring in the corpses and injured people sprawled outside. There is no movement in or out of the Hospital. The picture we are now seeing at Shifa is no longer of a humanitarian catastrophe – it is a collective death sentence.

We urgently call on all those with a conscience worldwide and on the international and medical communities: raise your voice now to protect all civilians in danger. It will be too late to do so tomorrow. We are morally obligated to push for an immediate ceasefire and the release of all hostages."
[Post edited 11 Nov 2023 17:28]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:02 - Nov 12 with 2885 viewsbrazil1982

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont

The Palestinian solidarity and peace demonstrations have been an object lesson in why it’s hard to protest against this — and no doubt will be again today.

They’ve been ridiculously characterised as hate marches or that Free Palestine means “wipe Israel off the map!” All of which has long been the state propaganda line towards those who see Palestinian human rights as real but consistently ignored and criminally breached with the result of thousands of innocent lives tossed aside and millions turned into refugees.

There will be hundreds of thousands out today. And I have no doubt any and all incidents will be used to turn the march into being about supporting Hamas and representing an existential threat to British Jews by those who have been pushing similar for years towards pro-Palestinians. But as we’ve seen so far from the demonstrations, the vast majority are there to support peace and there will be many Jewish people taking part too.

But if you indicate support for Palestinians on their own terms or like Macron you challenge Israel’s “right to self-defence” through indiscriminate mass killing then you’ll quickly find yourself on the wrong side and you’ll have anything and everything thrown at you.

The difference with Macron taking the stance is that it elevates it to the state and international level where Netanyahu and the far-right supporters will have to accuse Macron or the French state of being Hamas supporters or antisemites. That will look very silly very quickly.

So it seems a very significant step in helping bring the West to its senses and standing up for both sets of civilians. And actually aligning with the people in the West who are predominantly in favour of a ceasefire and simply haven’t been buying the hardline Israeli/US/UK reasoning.

Free Palestine! Ceasefire now!


How many people are shouting for Hamas to get out of Gaza? Why have we not seen protests about the "government " of Hamas before?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:07 - Nov 12 with 2870 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:02 - Nov 12 by brazil1982

How many people are shouting for Hamas to get out of Gaza? Why have we not seen protests about the "government " of Hamas before?


Shhhhhiiiiiiiiiitttttttttee
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:11 - Nov 12 with 2854 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:02 - Nov 12 by brazil1982

How many people are shouting for Hamas to get out of Gaza? Why have we not seen protests about the "government " of Hamas before?


There have been in Gaza, but of course Hamas stamp them out.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:15 - Nov 12 with 2812 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:11 - Nov 12 by eireblue

There have been in Gaza, but of course Hamas stamp them out.


[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 12:08]

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:16 - Nov 12 with 2824 viewsbrazil1982

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:11 - Nov 12 by eireblue

There have been in Gaza, but of course Hamas stamp them out.


Yes, there has. A terror organisation has taken over Gaza, has little respect for the population yet outside of Gaza itself we hear not a peep of protest against it; you would expect people who have concern for Palestinian lives would be demanding the removal of Hamas, surely? Won't happen.
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Does this help to explain the descent into madness ? on 11:20 - Nov 12 with 2801 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:02 - Nov 12 by brazil1982

How many people are shouting for Hamas to get out of Gaza? Why have we not seen protests about the "government " of Hamas before?


Because the Palestinian Authority have backtracked on the the settler incursions and are seen as weak by some Palestinians ?

So Hamas have a surprising level of support in Gaza...and anyone who opposes them might be dealt with in a summary manner. But mainly because it was a far away conflict before the atrocities of seventh of October with isolated, although horrendous on an individual level, incidents. But now we have seen the horror of Hamas and the disproportionate Israeli response it has alerted many to how screwed up the region is and how the knock on effects are ruining many lives (not counting the ones already lost) and threatening fragile peace further afield.

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 13 Nov 2023 13:14]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:31 - Nov 12 with 2788 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:15 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue

[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 12:08]


'Israel is doing them a favour'. Supreme! The ethnic cleansing, murder of 1000s of innocent children and indiscriminate bombing of hospitals etc. All doing them a favour apparently. The arrogance is incredible
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:34 - Nov 12 with 2766 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:16 - Nov 12 by brazil1982

Yes, there has. A terror organisation has taken over Gaza, has little respect for the population yet outside of Gaza itself we hear not a peep of protest against it; you would expect people who have concern for Palestinian lives would be demanding the removal of Hamas, surely? Won't happen.


Who should we make this demand to?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:48 - Nov 12 with 2726 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:31 - Nov 12 by leitrimblue

'Israel is doing them a favour'. Supreme! The ethnic cleansing, murder of 1000s of innocent children and indiscriminate bombing of hospitals etc. All doing them a favour apparently. The arrogance is incredible


Indeed. Hamas can’t be destroyed, not militarily anyway. The ones that haven’t legged it will be replaced by thousands more volunteers. At the end of this we’ll just be left with an uninhabitable wasteland and thousands of dead civilians.

A long term peace plan is the only way.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:56 - Nov 12 with 2699 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:34 - Nov 12 by noggin

Who should we make this demand to?


This is what is horrible about this situation.

Who should ask Hamas to go away.

If you take the principle that Hamas have to be stopped, you have to work out how you bring an army of 30,000 or so to the point that they want to surrender and give up violence.

Or leave Hamas in power, controlling the lives of 2 Million people, and every so often killing people.
By the way, Hamas, continually get better at what they do, so leaving Hamas in power, is accepting that they will get better at killing people, and could also get a bigger base of support in the West Bank.

I’ll repeat, I don’t like how Israel is doing this, it is horrendous and brutal and inhumane.

Anything you could think of that involves first option, will involve Hamas fighting, people will be killed.
On the second option, are people comfortable leaving Hamas in that position, e.g. the same position as they were in Oct 6th.

An easy solution. Hamas give up now, walk out of Gaza, leave all their weapons behind.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:07 - Nov 12 with 2655 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:31 - Nov 12 by leitrimblue

'Israel is doing them a favour'. Supreme! The ethnic cleansing, murder of 1000s of innocent children and indiscriminate bombing of hospitals etc. All doing them a favour apparently. The arrogance is incredible


I couldn’t link the video without the tweet. I don’t agree with the words used in the tweet.

I’ve linked the same video from a different tweet.


The video is the important part and was relevant to EB’s post.

[Post edited 12 Nov 2023 12:10]

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:33 - Nov 12 with 2615 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:56 - Nov 12 by eireblue

This is what is horrible about this situation.

Who should ask Hamas to go away.

If you take the principle that Hamas have to be stopped, you have to work out how you bring an army of 30,000 or so to the point that they want to surrender and give up violence.

Or leave Hamas in power, controlling the lives of 2 Million people, and every so often killing people.
By the way, Hamas, continually get better at what they do, so leaving Hamas in power, is accepting that they will get better at killing people, and could also get a bigger base of support in the West Bank.

I’ll repeat, I don’t like how Israel is doing this, it is horrendous and brutal and inhumane.

Anything you could think of that involves first option, will involve Hamas fighting, people will be killed.
On the second option, are people comfortable leaving Hamas in that position, e.g. the same position as they were in Oct 6th.

An easy solution. Hamas give up now, walk out of Gaza, leave all their weapons behind.


Hamas is the lung cancer, Israeli oppression is the 40 a day habit.

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1
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