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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 246655 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Jan 9 with 2565 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:00 - Jan 9 by DJR

UK double standards? Shurely shome mishtake!

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/jan/07/uk-accused-of-hypocrisy-in-not-backi

UK accused of hypocrisy in not backing claim of genocide in Gaza before ICJ

Experts say submission to international court of justice on Myanmar six weeks ago makes stance ‘wholly disingenuous’

The UK is facing accusations of double standards after formally submitting detailed legal arguments to the international court of justice in The Hague six weeks ago to support claims that Myanmar committed genocide against the Rohingya ethnic group through its mass mistreatment of children and systematically depriving people of their homes and food.

The UK made its 21-page “declaration of intervention” jointly with five other countries, but it is not supporting South Africa as it prepares to try to convince the ICJ on Thursday that Israel is at risk of committing genocide against the Palestinian people.

The UK submission on Myanmar argues there is a lower threshold for determining genocide if the damage has been inflicted on children as opposed to adults. The submission said other actions that could be defined as genocidal, if systematic, include forced displacement from homes, deprivation of medical services and the imposition of subsistence diets.


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:10 - Jan 9 with 2553 viewsDJR

Link to a report about the environmental impact of the war in Gaza, something I was wondering about the other day given all the smoke and fire.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4684768

This from the abstract.

The projected emissions from the first 60 days of the Israel-Gaza war were greater than the annual emissions of 20 individual countries and territories.

If we include war infrastructure built by both Israel and Hamas, including the Hamas’ tunnel network and Israel’s protective fence or ‘Iron Wall,’ the total emissions increase to more than over 33 individual countries and territories.

The carbon costs of reconstructing Gaza are enormous. Rebuilding Gaza will entail total annual emissions figure higher then over 130 countries, putting on them par with that of New Zealand.
[Post edited 9 Jan 21:11]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:38 - Jan 9 with 2526 viewsDJR

This from the Guardian

"The international criminal court (ICC) has confirmed it is investigating potential crimes against journalists since the outbreak of war between Israel and Hamas, according to Reporters Without Borders (RSF).

At least 79 journalists and media workers, the vast majority of them Palestinian, have been killed since the war began three months ago, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists."

Interestingly, an Israeli spokesman, when interviewed about the killing of two journalists a couple of days ago on the World Service, stated that he did not regard those operating in Gaza as journalists because he said they were biased, which seemed to me to explain why so many journalists had been targeted whether deliberately or recklessly. He did say that he regarded the BBC as not biased but it was then put to him, why didn't Israel allow BBC journalist to report from Gaza? His answer was that a BBC journalist had been allowed to accompany an Israeli platoon into Gaza, which is clearly the only type of journalism in Gaza Israel approves of.
[Post edited 10 Jan 10:39]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:48 - Jan 9 with 2498 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:38 - Jan 9 by DJR

This from the Guardian

"The international criminal court (ICC) has confirmed it is investigating potential crimes against journalists since the outbreak of war between Israel and Hamas, according to Reporters Without Borders (RSF).

At least 79 journalists and media workers, the vast majority of them Palestinian, have been killed since the war began three months ago, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists."

Interestingly, an Israeli spokesman, when interviewed about the killing of two journalists a couple of days ago on the World Service, stated that he did not regard those operating in Gaza as journalists because he said they were biased, which seemed to me to explain why so many journalists had been targeted whether deliberately or recklessly. He did say that he regarded the BBC as not biased but it was then put to him, why didn't Israel allow BBC journalist to report from Gaza? His answer was that a BBC journalist had been allowed to accompany an Israeli platoon into Gaza, which is clearly the only type of journalism in Gaza Israel approves of.
[Post edited 10 Jan 10:39]


The 2 deaths in a car a couple of days ago was clearly deliberately targeting. The fact that the journalist's father(bureau chief of Al Jazeera), mother and a daughter have also been injured in 2 separate incidents illustrates the scale at which innocents have been targeted.
Ceasefire now as a former forum member used to say.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:55 - Jan 11 with 2336 viewsDJR

Daily death toll in Gaza higher than any other major 21st century conflict, says Oxfam

Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day, the highest daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam has said.

In a statement today, Oxfam said it calculated that number of average deaths per day for Gaza is significantly higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East director, said:

"The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.

It is unimaginable that the international community is watching the deadliest rate of conflict of the 21st century unfold, while continuously blocking calls for a ceasefire."

EDIT: by reference to population, the death rate will be even higher compared to the other conflicts mentioned.
[Post edited 11 Jan 18:59]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:13 - Jan 11 with 2317 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:55 - Jan 11 by DJR

Daily death toll in Gaza higher than any other major 21st century conflict, says Oxfam

Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day, the highest daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam has said.

In a statement today, Oxfam said it calculated that number of average deaths per day for Gaza is significantly higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East director, said:

"The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.

It is unimaginable that the international community is watching the deadliest rate of conflict of the 21st century unfold, while continuously blocking calls for a ceasefire."

EDIT: by reference to population, the death rate will be even higher compared to the other conflicts mentioned.
[Post edited 11 Jan 18:59]



"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:09 - Jan 12 with 2208 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231215-israel-social-security-data-revea

'The data gives a clear picture of the scale of the atrocities at the Supernova music festival in Reim where 364 people were killed.
But it also invalidates some statements by Israeli authorities in the days following the attack.
In particular, a claim made on October 10 on the government's official X (formerly Twitter) account spoke of "40 babies murdered" at Kfar Aza kibbutz, based on a report by i24NEWS channel.
Questioned by AFP the following day, Israel's foreign ministry, which runs the X account, said it could not "confirm any number at this stage".
According to Bituah Leumi, 46 civilians were killed in Kfar Aza, the youngest 14 years old.
Another testimony called into question was that on October 27 by Colonel Golan Vach, head of the army's search and rescue unit, who told a group of journalists, including one from AFP, that he "personally" transported "a decapitated baby" found in the arms of his mother in the Beeri kibbutz.
According to Bituah Leumi, only one baby was killed in Beeri: the 10-month-old Mila Cohen, whose mother survived.
Army spokespersons did not respond to queries by AFP.'

Edit...I am still trying to fact check that most horrendous claim of all that GB linked regarding the pregnant woman and foetus. So far all I can find is that the incident occurred in Mexico but I am still looking for something definitive and verifiable.
[Post edited 12 Jan 9:28]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:13 - Jan 12 with 2111 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:13 - Jan 11 by BanksterDebtSlave



I'm sure they don't mean that and are doing their best to minimise innocent civilian casualties...
You probably seen this previously, but I thought it was an interesting enough read https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/10/only-outside-pressure-can-
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:23 - Jan 12 with 2090 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:13 - Jan 12 by leitrimblue

I'm sure they don't mean that and are doing their best to minimise innocent civilian casualties...
You probably seen this previously, but I thought it was an interesting enough read https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/10/only-outside-pressure-can-


Hadn't seen it....thanks.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:51 - Jan 12 with 2052 viewsphillymark

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:17 - Dec 22 by leitrimblue

This weaponising of antisemitism and these false and fake accusations of antisemitism really do need to be called out as strongly as possible.
Clearly in this case antisemitism is being used to close down criticism of Isreals appalling behaviour in Gaza.
This blurring of the lines between genuine racism/antisemitism and made up accusations to stifle debate is so dangerous to any of us belonging to minority groups and beyond and needs to be called out and properly addressed


Do you accuse black people of “weaponizing” racism or gay people of “weaponizing” homophobia? Is it just Jews that do this sort of thing?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:53 - Jan 12 with 2051 viewsphillymark

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:59 - Dec 5 by noggin

Israel is quite capable of preventing it happening again. They took their eye off the ball in a somewhat schoolboy error. Believe me, they won't let it happen again.


Why the hell would I “believe you”?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:56 - Jan 12 with 2041 viewsphillymark

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:19 - Dec 17 by DJR

That's a fair point, but it certainly could be argued that it proves my point that a split state of that sort of nature doesn't really work. And I assume Israel wouldn't want to end up with a three state solution.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 16:30]


To an extent that true, but there are lots of countries which are separated by another country. Russia, America, Spain - but these are smaller splits and not 1/2, 1/2
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:57 - Jan 12 with 2039 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:51 - Jan 12 by phillymark

Do you accuse black people of “weaponizing” racism or gay people of “weaponizing” homophobia? Is it just Jews that do this sort of thing?


Depends on whether they are doing it I would suggest.

Another cry of anti semitism in defence of people pointing out that crying anti semitism is not a valid response to justified allegations of war crimes and genocidal behaviour.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:04 - Jan 12 with 2019 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:51 - Jan 12 by phillymark

Do you accuse black people of “weaponizing” racism or gay people of “weaponizing” homophobia? Is it just Jews that do this sort of thing?


Are you suggesting that the examples given by DJR that I was replying to are not examples of the weaponising of antisemitism?
Would you like to give some examples of state weaponizing of homophobia or racism towards black people?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:38 - Jan 12 with 1954 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:56 - Jan 12 by phillymark

To an extent that true, but there are lots of countries which are separated by another country. Russia, America, Spain - but these are smaller splits and not 1/2, 1/2


I am not sure if you saw what I posted later (see below) which appeared in the only article I could find which discussed the workability of a non-contiguous state, and thus the two-state solution. As it is, it shared my misgivings.

"A two-state solution, of the type specified in the Oslo Accords, is unworkable because Gaza and the West Bank won’t form part of a single state. First of all, and most importantly, they’re non-contiguous. Non-contiguous states have a very poor historical track record, as evidenced by the fate of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Alaska is an exception of course, but Alaska is mostly empty wilderness; I suspect that if Alaska became more populous, it would try to secede. Gaza and the West Bank, in contrast, have roughly comparable populations — about 2 million to 3 million.

Consider transportation. Unlike Alaska or Kaliningrad or even Bangladesh, the West Bank is landlocked. For Gazans and West Bank Palestinians to visit each other’s territories, they would thus have to travel across Israel along a land corridor that Israel could choose to close at any time; this would totally compromise Palestinian sovereignty. The Palestinian state would be at the mercy of Israel because Israel could always threaten to sever it in two.

Even more important is the fact that political control is built locally, through in-person relationships, social services, infrastructure building, etc. This means that Gaza and the West Bank will naturally tend toward being controlled by two different political leaderships. And in fact this is exactly what has happened. Hamas and Fatah, two Palestinian political parties with armed militias, fought each other in 2007; the former prevailed in Gaza and the latter prevailed in the West Bank.

This means that Gaza and the West Bank are part of a single “nation” only in the sense that they both think of themselves as Palestinian, they both dream of a united Palestinian state, and the international community thinks of them as part of one people. But geographically, economically, politically, and militarily, they are already separate entities. And since Israel is unlikely to be wiped off the map, they will remain separate entities in any foreseeable “solution”.

Thus, a two-state solution is really off the table, and always has been — not because of Israel’s actions or Palestinian irredentism, but simply because it’s not practically possible for Gaza and the West Bank to stay united."
[Post edited 12 Jan 14:49]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:53 - Jan 12 with 1920 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:51 - Jan 12 by phillymark

Do you accuse black people of “weaponizing” racism or gay people of “weaponizing” homophobia? Is it just Jews that do this sort of thing?


Mugabe's regime often claimed that Western sanctions against Zimbabwe were motivated by racism. Should we have believed them just because they said so?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:03 - Jan 12 with 1859 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:57 - Jan 12 by redrickstuhaart

Depends on whether they are doing it I would suggest.

Another cry of anti semitism in defence of people pointing out that crying anti semitism is not a valid response to justified allegations of war crimes and genocidal behaviour.


Mark is another 1 of those not shy at crying antisemitic wolf in a desperate attempt to shut down criticism of the far right, apartheid state of Isreal.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:13 - Jan 12 with 1836 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:03 - Jan 12 by leitrimblue

Mark is another 1 of those not shy at crying antisemitic wolf in a desperate attempt to shut down criticism of the far right, apartheid state of Isreal.


Wow. You are actually accusing a Jewish person of "crying antisemitic wolf". Somebody who has experience of and understands antisemitism in a way that you will never appreciate.

Keep swimming in that sewer leitrim.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:41 - Jan 12 with 1812 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:13 - Jan 12 by GlasgowBlue

Wow. You are actually accusing a Jewish person of "crying antisemitic wolf". Somebody who has experience of and understands antisemitism in a way that you will never appreciate.

Keep swimming in that sewer leitrim.


I'm accusing someone who is crying antisemitic wolf of crying antisemitic wolf.
Of course the rest of us could never understand racism to the extent you or Phil could

'Keep swimming in that sewer' says the man happy to turn a blind eye to his teams daily slaughter of innocent women and children and proto genocide. Not a good look
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:42 - Jan 12 with 1803 viewsleitrimblue

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230103-jewish-supremacy-is-state-policy-says

Another interesting article
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:47 - Jan 12 with 1773 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:41 - Jan 12 by leitrimblue

I'm accusing someone who is crying antisemitic wolf of crying antisemitic wolf.
Of course the rest of us could never understand racism to the extent you or Phil could

'Keep swimming in that sewer' says the man happy to turn a blind eye to his teams daily slaughter of innocent women and children and proto genocide. Not a good look


My team?

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:06 - Jan 12 with 1688 viewsDJR

Things must be getting desperate if the FCO are tweeting about it. But there is clearly a lack of joined up government because we don't support a ceasefire, or even a pause, which is the only real solution. On the other hand, the tweet may well be only the sort of window dressing that one might expect of Cameron.

[Post edited 12 Jan 19:17]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:24 - Jan 12 with 1641 viewsEireannach_gorm

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:38 - Jan 12 by DJR

I am not sure if you saw what I posted later (see below) which appeared in the only article I could find which discussed the workability of a non-contiguous state, and thus the two-state solution. As it is, it shared my misgivings.

"A two-state solution, of the type specified in the Oslo Accords, is unworkable because Gaza and the West Bank won’t form part of a single state. First of all, and most importantly, they’re non-contiguous. Non-contiguous states have a very poor historical track record, as evidenced by the fate of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Alaska is an exception of course, but Alaska is mostly empty wilderness; I suspect that if Alaska became more populous, it would try to secede. Gaza and the West Bank, in contrast, have roughly comparable populations — about 2 million to 3 million.

Consider transportation. Unlike Alaska or Kaliningrad or even Bangladesh, the West Bank is landlocked. For Gazans and West Bank Palestinians to visit each other’s territories, they would thus have to travel across Israel along a land corridor that Israel could choose to close at any time; this would totally compromise Palestinian sovereignty. The Palestinian state would be at the mercy of Israel because Israel could always threaten to sever it in two.

Even more important is the fact that political control is built locally, through in-person relationships, social services, infrastructure building, etc. This means that Gaza and the West Bank will naturally tend toward being controlled by two different political leaderships. And in fact this is exactly what has happened. Hamas and Fatah, two Palestinian political parties with armed militias, fought each other in 2007; the former prevailed in Gaza and the latter prevailed in the West Bank.

This means that Gaza and the West Bank are part of a single “nation” only in the sense that they both think of themselves as Palestinian, they both dream of a united Palestinian state, and the international community thinks of them as part of one people. But geographically, economically, politically, and militarily, they are already separate entities. And since Israel is unlikely to be wiped off the map, they will remain separate entities in any foreseeable “solution”.

Thus, a two-state solution is really off the table, and always has been — not because of Israel’s actions or Palestinian irredentism, but simply because it’s not practically possible for Gaza and the West Bank to stay united."
[Post edited 12 Jan 14:49]


'Non-contiguous states have a very poor historical track record, as evidenced by the fate of Pakistan and Bangladesh.'?

Surely Pakistan was formed by mainly Muslims being booted out of what is now India and vice versa for Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

I see no reason that a two state solution can't be created in the country that was formerly Palestine. There is no reason that Palestinians have to live in both Gaza and the West Bank. Maybe an idea would be that they leave Gaza altogether and regain land that has been stolen by the Israeli settlers in compensation.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:17 - Jan 12 with 1554 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:24 - Jan 12 by Eireannach_gorm

'Non-contiguous states have a very poor historical track record, as evidenced by the fate of Pakistan and Bangladesh.'?

Surely Pakistan was formed by mainly Muslims being booted out of what is now India and vice versa for Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

I see no reason that a two state solution can't be created in the country that was formerly Palestine. There is no reason that Palestinians have to live in both Gaza and the West Bank. Maybe an idea would be that they leave Gaza altogether and regain land that has been stolen by the Israeli settlers in compensation.


The point he was making is that Pakistan and Bangladesh were once a single non-contiguous country but that country didn't last.

As regards the idea of the Palestinian people voluntarily leaving Gaza, that does not appear to be a runner at all, not least because Gaza has from the outset been regarded as Palestinian land. And if what you are suggesting is that the people of Gaza move to the West Bank in place of Israeli settlers there, I am not sure the West Bank would have the capacity or resources (much of it is pretty baren) to take 2.3 million Gazans.
[Post edited 12 Jan 21:20]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:41 - Jan 12 with 1503 viewsEireannach_gorm

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:17 - Jan 12 by DJR

The point he was making is that Pakistan and Bangladesh were once a single non-contiguous country but that country didn't last.

As regards the idea of the Palestinian people voluntarily leaving Gaza, that does not appear to be a runner at all, not least because Gaza has from the outset been regarded as Palestinian land. And if what you are suggesting is that the people of Gaza move to the West Bank in place of Israeli settlers there, I am not sure the West Bank would have the capacity or resources (much of it is pretty baren) to take 2.3 million Gazans.
[Post edited 12 Jan 21:20]


It was all Palastinian land at one stage. I am putting an option for a two state situation. You may have an alternative suggestion that I can critique.

BTW The reason Bangladesh exists is because Pakistanies did not want to live in a swamp. Short end of the stick option.
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