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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. 19:58 - Feb 22 with 6873 viewsMattinLondon

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/21/liz-truss-deep-state-cpac-far-ri
[Post edited 22 Feb 20:02]
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:51 - Feb 23 with 1243 viewsStokieBlue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:46 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

If Labour had decent leadership in 2019, we wouldn't have a tory stranglehold on the country. Corbyn is responsible for the mess we are in by being crap.


So you're blaming the incompetence of someone not in power rather than the incompetence of someone who is in power and actually made the decisions?

I think that nicely highlights why the country is in such a mess.

SB

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:54 - Feb 23 with 1212 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:51 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue

So you're blaming the incompetence of someone not in power rather than the incompetence of someone who is in power and actually made the decisions?

I think that nicely highlights why the country is in such a mess.

SB


When even dyed in the wool lifelong labour voters deserted the party then yes, blame has to be apportioned.

Jeremy Corbyn was the best gift the tories could have wished for.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:59 - Feb 23 with 1174 viewsStokieBlue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:54 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

When even dyed in the wool lifelong labour voters deserted the party then yes, blame has to be apportioned.

Jeremy Corbyn was the best gift the tories could have wished for.


So his incompetence is a more important factor in our current position that the 5 years of actual decisions and policies implemented by the government?

Hard to know what more to say when presented with such a narrative driven argument which essentially removes all blame from the incompetent government who have given us 3 rubbish PMs in that period.

SB

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:02 - Feb 23 with 1154 viewspositivity

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:59 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue

So his incompetence is a more important factor in our current position that the 5 years of actual decisions and policies implemented by the government?

Hard to know what more to say when presented with such a narrative driven argument which essentially removes all blame from the incompetent government who have given us 3 rubbish PMs in that period.

SB


shame i can't give this more than one uppie.

sure, corbyn was a weak leader, but blame for the tories' disastrous policies falls 100% on those proposing them and voting them through parliament.

could argue that the apallingly weak leadership around 2016 was even more responsible for the current malaise, yet cameron is now back in government!

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:04 - Feb 23 with 1141 viewsMattinLondon

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:54 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

When even dyed in the wool lifelong labour voters deserted the party then yes, blame has to be apportioned.

Jeremy Corbyn was the best gift the tories could have wished for.


You do have a point. Corbyn was a gift which both the Tories and their mates in the press tore open relentlessly. However, Corbyn never achieved power and never really came close to it - he served as a pantomime villain to many who feared the made-up vision of high inflation, strikes every five minutes and public funds being wasted at every opportunity- in truth, all those ‘threats’ were made real by successive Tory administrations.

Personally I think that May is much more responsible for the country being in the state that it is in than a mere leader of the opposition. In fact May is responsible for a lot of the hatred and divisiveness of society in the last fifteen years.
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:06 - Feb 23 with 1129 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:59 - Feb 23 by StokieBlue

So his incompetence is a more important factor in our current position that the 5 years of actual decisions and policies implemented by the government?

Hard to know what more to say when presented with such a narrative driven argument which essentially removes all blame from the incompetent government who have given us 3 rubbish PMs in that period.

SB


That's not the argument I am making at all. I totally agree the tories are awful. But what gave them a huge majority in 2019? Clown Boris was able to romp home with an 80 seat majority merely because the prospect of a Corbyn govt was so unpalatable to most but the most ardent loons.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:08 - Feb 23 with 1107 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:04 - Feb 23 by MattinLondon

You do have a point. Corbyn was a gift which both the Tories and their mates in the press tore open relentlessly. However, Corbyn never achieved power and never really came close to it - he served as a pantomime villain to many who feared the made-up vision of high inflation, strikes every five minutes and public funds being wasted at every opportunity- in truth, all those ‘threats’ were made real by successive Tory administrations.

Personally I think that May is much more responsible for the country being in the state that it is in than a mere leader of the opposition. In fact May is responsible for a lot of the hatred and divisiveness of society in the last fifteen years.


Thank you. A sensible reply!

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:13 - Feb 23 with 1091 viewsEwan_Oozami

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:06 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

That's not the argument I am making at all. I totally agree the tories are awful. But what gave them a huge majority in 2019? Clown Boris was able to romp home with an 80 seat majority merely because the prospect of a Corbyn govt was so unpalatable to most but the most ardent loons.


Well, 10,269,051 people voted Labour in the 2019 GE and I wouldn't say they were all ardent loons...

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:22 - Feb 23 with 1058 viewsgiant_stow

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:13 - Feb 23 by Ewan_Oozami

Well, 10,269,051 people voted Labour in the 2019 GE and I wouldn't say they were all ardent loons...


No not at all - lots of us extreme dirty centrists voted for Corbyn then too, despite our misgivings. Its the swing voters who were put off by Corbyn / turned on by Boris bantz.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:51 - Feb 23 with 1015 viewsWhos_blue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:06 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

That's not the argument I am making at all. I totally agree the tories are awful. But what gave them a huge majority in 2019? Clown Boris was able to romp home with an 80 seat majority merely because the prospect of a Corbyn govt was so unpalatable to most but the most ardent loons.


But we are doing this debate an injustice if we ignore the seismic impact of Johnson's "Get Brexit done" campaign mantra that destroyed the red wall and in part was responsible for delivering the 80 seat majority.
As has been mentioned, Corbyn returned over 10m votes. Not to be sniffed at.
I also query why we felt the need to bring Corbyn into this in the first place? The link wasn't immediately clear to me in a thread about Truss.

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:56 - Feb 23 with 991 viewsBlueschev

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:54 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

When even dyed in the wool lifelong labour voters deserted the party then yes, blame has to be apportioned.

Jeremy Corbyn was the best gift the tories could have wished for.


I'd say that the disastrous "People's Vote" campaign did more to aid an 80 seat Tory majority than Corbyn did. " Get Brexit Done" was a very simple and effective campaign slogan, they didn't really have to say much else, and didnt.
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:59 - Feb 23 with 978 viewspositivity

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:56 - Feb 23 by Blueschev

I'd say that the disastrous "People's Vote" campaign did more to aid an 80 seat Tory majority than Corbyn did. " Get Brexit Done" was a very simple and effective campaign slogan, they didn't really have to say much else, and didnt.


true, weak tory and labour leadership in 2006 enabled the brexiteers to have an almost free run

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:00 - Feb 23 with 965 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:51 - Feb 23 by Whos_blue

But we are doing this debate an injustice if we ignore the seismic impact of Johnson's "Get Brexit done" campaign mantra that destroyed the red wall and in part was responsible for delivering the 80 seat majority.
As has been mentioned, Corbyn returned over 10m votes. Not to be sniffed at.
I also query why we felt the need to bring Corbyn into this in the first place? The link wasn't immediately clear to me in a thread about Truss.


Yeah it got derailed a bit at the mention of treason. Couldn't help but bite.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. (n/t) on 12:03 - Feb 23 with 964 viewsWhos_blue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:00 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

Yeah it got derailed a bit at the mention of treason. Couldn't help but bite.


[Post edited 23 Feb 12:04]

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:04 - Feb 23 with 958 viewsleitrimblue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:51 - Feb 23 by Whos_blue

But we are doing this debate an injustice if we ignore the seismic impact of Johnson's "Get Brexit done" campaign mantra that destroyed the red wall and in part was responsible for delivering the 80 seat majority.
As has been mentioned, Corbyn returned over 10m votes. Not to be sniffed at.
I also query why we felt the need to bring Corbyn into this in the first place? The link wasn't immediately clear to me in a thread about Truss.


I imagine people bring Corbyn into it as a way of justifying there support ( often longtime support) for the party that as brought us Truss, Boris and Sunak.
The same party that brought you the survival of the sh1ttest culture of blaming the poorest and weakest in society while making them and their mates a few quid
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:04 - Feb 23 with 954 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:59 - Feb 23 by positivity

true, weak tory and labour leadership in 2006 enabled the brexiteers to have an almost free run


Yes the Remain campaign was weak. Dave flew out the referendum and never really thought the public would vote Leave. A decision which is still baffling to me as I don't think there was really a public appetite to have a referendum. It was more to settle internal divisions in his own party. If we were trace it all back then the true villain who caused the mess we are in today is Dave Cameron!

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:12 - Feb 23 with 939 viewsWhos_blue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:04 - Feb 23 by leitrimblue

I imagine people bring Corbyn into it as a way of justifying there support ( often longtime support) for the party that as brought us Truss, Boris and Sunak.
The same party that brought you the survival of the sh1ttest culture of blaming the poorest and weakest in society while making them and their mates a few quid


Yeah, maybe.
Maybe also enjoying being a little provocative too to keep the board on its toes?!?
I've never been a fan of the tories but I can't remember ever detesting them so much as I do now.
They are a dead party walking.
They only have destroying Starmer as weak and having no plan as their main attack line in the lead up to the GE.

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:20 - Feb 23 with 900 viewsblueasfook

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:12 - Feb 23 by Whos_blue

Yeah, maybe.
Maybe also enjoying being a little provocative too to keep the board on its toes?!?
I've never been a fan of the tories but I can't remember ever detesting them so much as I do now.
They are a dead party walking.
They only have destroying Starmer as weak and having no plan as their main attack line in the lead up to the GE.


Provocative? Moi?!

Well maybe a little. But I think we can all agree we are fed up to the teeth of the tories. The country badly needs change.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:24 - Feb 23 with 885 viewsWhos_blue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:20 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

Provocative? Moi?!

Well maybe a little. But I think we can all agree we are fed up to the teeth of the tories. The country badly needs change.


Amen to that brother!

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:32 - Feb 23 with 867 viewsleitrimblue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:12 - Feb 23 by Whos_blue

Yeah, maybe.
Maybe also enjoying being a little provocative too to keep the board on its toes?!?
I've never been a fan of the tories but I can't remember ever detesting them so much as I do now.
They are a dead party walking.
They only have destroying Starmer as weak and having no plan as their main attack line in the lead up to the GE.


Yer, your first paragraph is probably true.
Unfortunately so is your last paragraph. Starmer does come over as weak and his version of the Labour Party appears to stand for very little.
Fortunately the Tories have been so bad for so long that even their usual deluded fan boys have partially seen through them.

So Labour should have an easy enough victory in the GE. Just have to hope they choose to stand for something more once they in power.
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:33 - Feb 23 with 859 viewsDJR

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 09:51 - Feb 23 by Herbivore

I'd say pretty much everyone alive today isn't very politically aware or great at appraising information. My parents' generation and older still are pretty hopeless at working out whether sources are credible or not and they tend to still believe that some of the mainstream press is reporting actual news rather than the pseudo-propaganda that it's actually producing. Some of that is down to struggling to keep up with advances in technology and how many sources are out there now, but as a country we are hopelessly ignorant in many ways.


That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. I've been very interested in politics since the age of 14 (back in 1974), and am by nature a sceptic.

As regards what is predominant right-wing propaganda (even Ed Miliband was portrayed as a dangerous lefty), that's been going on long before I was born and explains why the Tories have been the main party of government since WW2.

EDIT: It was the first general election in 1974 that triggered my interest. I listened to both sides during the campaign and came to the conclusion it was Labour for me. In those days there were policy differences and strong arguments in policy terms on either side. These days it's all stage managed, there is little difference in policy and politicians seem obsessed with not not really saying anything of substance. No wonder people are disillusioned with the state of politics in this country, as I am.
[Post edited 23 Feb 15:36]
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:34 - Feb 23 with 857 viewsWhos_blue

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 12:32 - Feb 23 by leitrimblue

Yer, your first paragraph is probably true.
Unfortunately so is your last paragraph. Starmer does come over as weak and his version of the Labour Party appears to stand for very little.
Fortunately the Tories have been so bad for so long that even their usual deluded fan boys have partially seen through them.

So Labour should have an easy enough victory in the GE. Just have to hope they choose to stand for something more once they in power.


Amen to that brother - pt2!

Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 13:00 - Feb 23 with 791 viewsClapham_Junction

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 11:06 - Feb 23 by blueasfook

That's not the argument I am making at all. I totally agree the tories are awful. But what gave them a huge majority in 2019? Clown Boris was able to romp home with an 80 seat majority merely because the prospect of a Corbyn govt was so unpalatable to most but the most ardent loons.


It's because the election was largely fought on Brexit and many "traditional" Labour voters in red wall areas wanted it...

I don't think the "incompetence" angle is correct, as it should have been clear to pretty much everyone from the previous few years of government that the Tories were at least as incompetent, if not worse. And then it would have been a decision between well-meaning but incompetent (Labour) and heartless and incompetent (Tories).

Years of demonisation of the Labour leader by all sections of the media (including the BBC) didn't help. But then again, in a healthy political environment, the leader of the Tories at the time would have been equally demonised given his long and very public track record of dishonesty. Instead he was elevated to celebrity status.
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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 14:47 - Feb 23 with 709 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 10:07 - Feb 23 by DJR

Chomsky is good on this.

"There have been many measures taken to try to turn the educational system towards more control, more indoctrination, more vocational training, imposing a debt, which traps students and young people into a life of conformity… That’s the exact opposite of [what] traditionally comes out of The Enlightenment. And there’s a constant struggle between those. In the colleges, in the schools, do you train for passing tests, or do you train for creative inquiry?"

According to Chomsky there is an instrumental approach to education. It is characterized as mindless, meaningless drills and exercise given "in preparation for multiple choice exams". This is evident through the state mandated curriculum where standardized tests are necessary to measure student growth and educational success. Chomsky argues that "the value of education should be placed on students' critical thinking skills and the process of gaining useful and applicable knowledge". However Chomsky's view of the factory model of education is that students are mandated to adhere to state written curricula where standardized tests are necessary. Students are inadvertently pushed to learn through memorization of facts, rather than through critical thinking.

Chomsky suggests that society simply reduces education to the requirement of the market. Students are trained to be compliant workers. The education process is reduced to knowledgeable educators who transfer information to those who don't know rather than to help students formulate higher level thinking skills on their own. In an interview with Donaldo Macedo, Chomsky describes education as "a deep level of indoctrination that takes place in our schools". Teachers are referred to as workers who merely carry out a task they were hired to do. Schools indoctrinate and impose obedience and are used as a system of control and coercion. Chomsky explains that an educated child by society's definition "is one who is conditioned to obey power and structure".

Chomsky complains that children are not taught to challenge and think independently, yet they are taught to repeat, follow orders and obey. Education is described as a period of regimentation and control, with a system of false beliefs.


I make him right.

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Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 15:34 - Feb 23 with 650 viewsDJR

Apparently it was all a conspiracy against her. on 14:47 - Feb 23 by BanksterDebtSlave

I make him right.


Perhaps this is the key passage.

"Chomsky suggests that society simply reduces education to the requirement of the market. Students are trained to be compliant workers. The education process is reduced to knowledgeable educators who transfer information to those who don't know rather than to help students formulate higher level thinking skills on their own."

I suppose people having higher level thinking skills might only cause them to question the system, and we can't allow that.
[Post edited 23 Feb 15:34]
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