| Reverting to the culture wars 08:03 - Jun 3 with 3312 views | Herbivore |
After a pretty terrible start to their election campaign, it seems the Tories are retreating to their safe space of culture war nonsense: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0kkvkkejgno
Depressing how trans people, asylum seekers, and those on benefits matter so little to people in power that they are happy to use them for nothing other than to try and score political points. |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:09 - Jun 3 with 2708 views | DJR |
Apart from a short period under Cameron, the Tories as a whole have always been socially conservative. Indeed, it was only those on the libertarian right of the party (eg. some members of the Monday Club) that were more enlightened, but these days even those people are very illiberal.
The sad thing is that Badenoch, by framing the proposals by reference to predators, is merely repeating the same sort of claims that were made in relation to gay people all those years ago.
Indeed, I sense we're almost at a stage where, if they weren't legal, neither homosexuality nor gay marriage would be made legal.
[Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:21]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:18 - Jun 3 with 2657 views | Herbivore |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:09 - Jun 3 by DJR |
Apart from a short period under Cameron, the Tories as a whole have always been socially conservative. Indeed, it was only those on the libertarian right of the party (eg. some members of the Monday Club) that were more enlightened, but these days even those people are very illiberal.
The sad thing is that Badenoch, by framing the proposals by reference to predators, is merely repeating the same sort of claims that were made in relation to gay people all those years ago.
Indeed, I sense we're almost at a stage where, if they weren't legal, neither homosexuality nor gay marriage would be made legal.
[Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:21]
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Libertarians are only economic libertarians these days. They want no state interference in economic affairs but want the state to police the political and social life of the country. They're actually quite terrifying, they effectively want the state to no longer provide a safety net or even often basic services but they do want it to protect their beliefs and interests. | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:25 - Jun 3 with 2631 views | DJR |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:18 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
Libertarians are only economic libertarians these days. They want no state interference in economic affairs but want the state to police the political and social life of the country. They're actually quite terrifying, they effectively want the state to no longer provide a safety net or even often basic services but they do want it to protect their beliefs and interests. |
The crazy thing is all this stuff is imported from the States, where religion plays a big part, but religion no longer plays much, if any part, in the UK. | | | |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:30 - Jun 3 with 2592 views | Herbivore |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:25 - Jun 3 by DJR |
The crazy thing is all this stuff is imported from the States, where religion plays a big part, but religion no longer plays much, if any part, in the UK. |
Conservatives have adopted it here because many of them are, by nature, mean-spirited and don't see any reason to care about minority rights or support anything that could in any way disrupt a status quo that massively favours them. | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:35 - Jun 3 with 2564 views | Herbivore |
Yes, it's rather odd that we don't have separation of church and state in the UK whereas they do in the US, yet religion has far more sway over their political life than it does ours. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:51]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:44 - Jun 3 with 2536 views | WeWereZombies |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:35 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
Yes, it's rather odd that we don't have separation of church and state in the UK whereas they do in the US, yet religion has far more sway over their political life than it does ours. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:51]
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Far more overt sway in the United States but it is the subtle and insidious way that religion undermines moral arguments in Britain that can hold us back. That being said, it is worth remembering the important role that some religions have played in denouncing slavery. |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 09:18 - Jun 3 with 2420 views | DJR |
Good response from Labour's John Healey this morning.
"We will not want to amend the Act, it’s not needed. It already provides a definition of a woman, and sex and gender are different.
What is needed is clearer guidance for service providers, from the NHS to sports bodies, and in prisons, on what single-sex exemptions need to be, and the best way to be able to do that is in guidance, not primary legislation.
The government has had 14 years to do that and it hasn’t. This, to be honest, is a distraction from the election campaign." [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 9:18]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 09:22 - Jun 3 with 2390 views | Guthrum |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:35 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
Yes, it's rather odd that we don't have separation of church and state in the UK whereas they do in the US, yet religion has far more sway over their political life than it does ours. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:51]
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Not so odd given the history.
Prior to the final third of Henry VIII's reign, religion was an external force that often challenged - on occasion tried to overthrow - royal authority. Following his split with Rome, the government and church hierarchy effectively merged (Mary's brief interlude aside). The struggles of the following two centuries (including the English Civil Wars and the Glorious Revolution) were a three-cornered fight between the established Anglican church, those favouring Catholic tolerance or full restoration and assorted non-conformist Protestant groups. Finally, the CofE won, as a bastion of royal and Parliamentary administration. They were tightly entwined, with the former a justification of the last two.
The American Colonies (what became the USA), on the other hand, were in some cases founded specifically upon sectarian tolerance, or at least a safe space to operate. Thus the specific exclusion of religious political interference in the Constitution by people who came from that tradition.
However, as a society the US has remained more religious than we have in Britain, partly down to the revivals of the 19th century and the fact the post-war secular shift had limited effect on that side of the Atlantic (probably due to socialism never having gained much traction over there).
As Southern-ism and rural-ism have increased their weight in conservative American politics - in rivalry to urban secular or Jewish liberalism and Black liberation movements - religious zeal has risen with it. Particularly as communism-fearing pastors of the Cold War era preached social conservatism to stave off revolution (contrast with the Liberation Theologies of Central and South America).
Which brings us to now, when economic hardship (particularly in rural and declined industrial/mining areas), polarisation and the world situation has driven things to a Milennialist (end of the world) fever. For many, it has become a battle between good and evil. Which is why they are willing to show a cultish devotion to a charismatic leader like Trump, who talks to them in their language (of extremes) and promises to lead them in a crusade against their cultural enemies. |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 09:28 - Jun 3 with 2367 views | Guthrum |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:30 - Jun 3 by Herbivore |
Conservatives have adopted it here because many of them are, by nature, mean-spirited and don't see any reason to care about minority rights or support anything that could in any way disrupt a status quo that massively favours them. |
Plus US conservative and hard-line religious funding is pouring into the UK and people will say and do things for that money. (particularly if it roughly aligns with their existing views). | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 09:56 - Jun 3 with 2302 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 09:18 - Jun 3 by DJR |
Good response from Labour's John Healey this morning.
"We will not want to amend the Act, it’s not needed. It already provides a definition of a woman, and sex and gender are different.
What is needed is clearer guidance for service providers, from the NHS to sports bodies, and in prisons, on what single-sex exemptions need to be, and the best way to be able to do that is in guidance, not primary legislation.
The government has had 14 years to do that and it hasn’t. This, to be honest, is a distraction from the election campaign." [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 9:18]
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healey is entirely right - the law is already clear. the existing ehrc guidance is also excellent.
the tory campaign is just aimlessly drifting. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:06 - Jun 3 with 2260 views | J2BLUE |
Pensioner tax threshold increases, national service and now this.
They seem to be throwing everything at their existing voters. |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:09 - Jun 3 with 2234 views | BlueBadger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 08:09 - Jun 3 by DJR |
Apart from a short period under Cameron, the Tories as a whole have always been socially conservative. Indeed, it was only those on the libertarian right of the party (eg. some members of the Monday Club) that were more enlightened, but these days even those people are very illiberal.
The sad thing is that Badenoch, by framing the proposals by reference to predators, is merely repeating the same sort of claims that were made in relation to gay people all those years ago.
Indeed, I sense we're almost at a stage where, if they weren't legal, neither homosexuality nor gay marriage would be made legal.
[Post edited 3 Jun 2024 8:21]
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Worth pointing out here that under under Cameron, more than half the parliamentary Tory party(including several current and former ministers) voted against the legalisation of gay marriage.
It's a bit of a myth that 'the Tories' were more socially liberal under Call Me Dave, he just put on a vaguely plausible facade of it. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:12]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:09 - Jun 3 with 2226 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:06 - Jun 3 by J2BLUE |
Pensioner tax threshold increases, national service and now this.
They seem to be throwing everything at their existing voters. |
so far, it's a campaign aimed at stopping voters shifting to reform and avoiding falling below 100 seats. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:20 - Jun 3 with 2153 views | itfcjoe |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:06 - Jun 3 by J2BLUE |
Pensioner tax threshold increases, national service and now this.
They seem to be throwing everything at their existing voters. |
It's felt like they'd given up from about day 3, I guess the PM not telling his cabinet he was calling it didn't help but they had 'first movers advantage' and just have made nothing of it.
There is still the likeliehood that Reform step aside for them in certain constituencies but that's the only thing that is going to see them not almost totally wiped out |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:20 - Jun 3 with 2150 views | DJR |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:09 - Jun 3 by BlueBadger |
Worth pointing out here that under under Cameron, more than half the parliamentary Tory party(including several current and former ministers) voted against the legalisation of gay marriage.
It's a bit of a myth that 'the Tories' were more socially liberal under Call Me Dave, he just put on a vaguely plausible facade of it. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:12]
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That's fair. I suppose it was just Cameron who wanted to change the party image, but he actually believed in it (to give him some credit). And to give her some credit, Theresa May was also a bit more enlightened (apart from on immigration). Johnson was also a social liberal but was more than happy to play the culture wars, rather like Trump. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:24]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:23 - Jun 3 with 2120 views | BlueBadger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:20 - Jun 3 by DJR |
That's fair. I suppose it was just Cameron who wanted to change the party image, but he actually believed in it (to give him some credit). And to give her some credit, Theresa May was also a bit more enlightened (apart from on immigration). Johnson was also a social liberal but was more than happy to play the culture wars, rather like Trump. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:24]
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Boris 'Tank Topped Bumboys' Johnson is socially liberal? | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:25 - Jun 3 with 2098 views | LeoMuff |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:20 - Jun 3 by itfcjoe |
It's felt like they'd given up from about day 3, I guess the PM not telling his cabinet he was calling it didn't help but they had 'first movers advantage' and just have made nothing of it.
There is still the likeliehood that Reform step aside for them in certain constituencies but that's the only thing that is going to see them not almost totally wiped out |
The only concern I have is the debates, looks like Starmer has agreed to a few, silly really as they are head and shoulders in front with only downsides to a debate. |  |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:29 - Jun 3 with 2074 views | DJR |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:23 - Jun 3 by BlueBadger |
Boris 'Tank Topped Bumboys' Johnson is socially liberal? |
At heart yes. Indeed, given his own moral code, it's difficult to think he could be anything else.
This from Wikipedia
In 2012, the political scientist Tony Travers described Johnson as "a fairly classic—that is, small-state—mildly eurosceptic Conservative" who, like his contemporaries David Cameron and George Osborne, also embraced "modern social liberalism". The Guardian stated that while Mayor of London, Johnson blended economic and social liberalism, with The Economist saying that in doing so Johnson "transcends his Tory identity" and adopts a more libertarian perspective. Stuart Reid, Johnson's colleague at The Spectator, described the latter's views as being those of a "liberal libertarian". Business Insider commented that as London Mayor, Johnson gained a reputation as "a liberal, centre-ground politician".
Gimson wrote that Johnson is economically and socially "a genuine liberal", although he retains a "Tory element" to his personality through his "love of existing institutions, and a recognition of the inevitability of hierarchy. His liberal stance on matters such as social policy, immigration and free trade were also commented on in 2019. In 2019, Al Jazeera editor James Brownswell said that although Johnson had "leaned to the right" since the Brexit campaign, he remained "slightly more socially liberal" than much of his party. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:32]
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:34 - Jun 3 with 2030 views | BlueBadger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:29 - Jun 3 by DJR |
At heart yes. Indeed, given his own moral code, it's difficult to think he could be anything else.
This from Wikipedia
In 2012, the political scientist Tony Travers described Johnson as "a fairly classic—that is, small-state—mildly eurosceptic Conservative" who, like his contemporaries David Cameron and George Osborne, also embraced "modern social liberalism". The Guardian stated that while Mayor of London, Johnson blended economic and social liberalism, with The Economist saying that in doing so Johnson "transcends his Tory identity" and adopts a more libertarian perspective. Stuart Reid, Johnson's colleague at The Spectator, described the latter's views as being those of a "liberal libertarian". Business Insider commented that as London Mayor, Johnson gained a reputation as "a liberal, centre-ground politician".
Gimson wrote that Johnson is economically and socially "a genuine liberal", although he retains a "Tory element" to his personality through his "love of existing institutions, and a recognition of the inevitability of hierarchy. His liberal stance on matters such as social policy, immigration and free trade were also commented on in 2019. In 2019, Al Jazeera editor James Brownswell said that although Johnson had "leaned to the right" since the Brexit campaign, he remained "slightly more socially liberal" than much of his party. [Post edited 3 Jun 2024 10:32]
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Boris 'picaninnies' Johnson is seriously considered socially liberal? | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:49 - Jun 3 with 1968 views | BlueBadger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:06 - Jun 3 by J2BLUE |
Pensioner tax threshold increases, national service and now this.
They seem to be throwing everything at their existing voters. |
Today's big policy announcement is going to involve the return of white dog poo, glue sniffing and the Austin Allegro. | |
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| Reverting to the culture wars on 11:33 - Jun 3 with 1849 views | eireblue |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:49 - Jun 3 by BlueBadger |
Today's big policy announcement is going to involve the return of white dog poo, glue sniffing and the Austin Allegro. |
Anti-social behaviour punishments? |  | | |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 13:34 - Jun 3 with 1621 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 10:06 - Jun 3 by J2BLUE |
Pensioner tax threshold increases, national service and now this.
They seem to be throwing everything at their existing voters. |
And that is exactly what they are doing (and explicitly targeting those who could potentially switch to Reform, which could be the tipping point for losses in many seats. To think they are fighting for votes from the racists, bigots and elderly purely to save their toxic party.
Shameful but not suprising |  | | |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 13:35 - Jun 3 with 1596 views | BlueBadger |
| Reverting to the culture wars on 13:34 - Jun 3 by PassionNotAnger |
And that is exactly what they are doing (and explicitly targeting those who could potentially switch to Reform, which could be the tipping point for losses in many seats. To think they are fighting for votes from the racists, bigots and elderly purely to save their toxic party.
Shameful but not suprising |
The people they are targeting just have Very Real Concerns. | |
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