| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? 09:17 - Sep 5 with 4363 views | NthQldITFC |
I haven't read the Grenfell report (and to be brutal it's just another example to me) but when the bullet points suggest corporate manslaughter, gross negligence manslaughter and misconduct in public office it just makes me feel so tired and cynical and expectant of another utterly ineffective conclusion.
There is no meaningful accountability for governmental or corporate corruption in this country.
It leaves decent, honest, responsible people feeling cynical and drives many of us to give up and just echo lines like 'You can't do anything, that's just how the system works'. Of course, many of us are bought into it and willingly or guiltily accept the sh!t on our hands in exchange for the perception of personal profit.
But the stakes are getting higher; our technological advancements (physical and computational) give us more and more powerful tools which are inevitably used within the expansionist system to chase short term profit at the expense of people, the environment and everybody's future. We are doing more damage, more quickly to a more vulnerable society and a perilously damaged planet - and there is effectively NO PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY!
Corporate fines (whatever the size) are meaningless in terms of driving change. Culpable individuals MUST pay severe penalties (imprisonment and personal wealth removal) as both meaningful deterrent and redress to victims. This has to start now, not be put off again because "it can't be done, it sets too much of a precedent."
It strikes me that the framework of the law is far too geared up to accepting mitigation and protecting the vehicles of the great god of profit. I think we all know where that is headed. Can we actually think outside of the protective constraints of HowThingsAreDone and radically and positively adapt the framework of our society in order to survive and indeed to thrive? Are we brave enough to try to evolve beyond 17th Century ideals and excuses for more of the same? |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:11 - Sep 6 with 836 views | NthQldITFC |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:52 - Sep 6 by redrickstuhaart |
It seems to me that even the best organisations i worked for have all manner of problems. Its a wack a mole thing. Impossible to monitor everything. Put systems in place, over time they change and slide, people assume its ok because others are doing the same, etc etc. |
Yes. That's why I think that cast iron meaningful accountability (without legal escape mechanisms) would force a real culture change, not just the latest bullsh!t excuse for a fix. Sure, the cost would be high in the context of our existing maximised-profit-at-all-costs religion, but that's how we have to change things if we want to survive in a non-dystopian form.
No excuses. No more knowing acceptance of bullsh!t | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:12 - Sep 6 with 833 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:05 - Sep 6 by lowhouseblue |
when i said "political activists" i meant political activists. i was not referring to those who lost relatives who will have their own very specific and very subjective take on these issues.
the point is that none of what you are pushing is supported by the findings of the enquiry. to quote the guardian today:
"The final report into the fire did address concerns about racism, saying: “Our response to those who wanted us to investigate racial and social discrimination has always been that we would look out for it and that if we came across any evidence that racial or social prejudice might have affected any of the decisions that led, directly or indirectly, to the disaster, we would examine it thoroughly and publish our findings, as befits an inquiry seeking to uncover the truth.” However, it said the inquiry found “no evidence that any of the decisions that resulted in the creation of a dangerous building or the calamitous spread of fire were affected by racial or social prejudice”.
so a 6 year enquiry has not found anything to back up your narrative. i appreciate that their findings may therefore be uncomfortable for you. [Post edited 6 Sep 2024 15:07]
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Not finding evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People who are prejudiced and/or racist tend not to document or admit it, am sure you'll know that.
When those on the receiving end, speak of prejudice - I am quite content to take their word for it. They could of course all be making it up, but I doubt it.
Don't find listening to people's experiences and believing them remotely uncomfortable as it goes. |  |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:14 - Sep 6 with 815 views | NthQldITFC |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:15 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
You make a lot of decent points.
The water companies have been a good example of corporate lies and greed. Polluting the rivers and seas, lying about it (the yearly fliers included with the increased bill said they were cleaning this all up) and at the same time borrowing money to pay dividends and huge salaries and bonuses to the people that run them. And now Thames water is on the verge of declaring itself bankrupt.
A complete failure of privatisation and lack of governance over these companies.
There has to be something embedded into the culture and "mission statements" of every company and organisation that looks to do the right things. |
I feel that corrupt and deceitful practice is so normalised that we need something more than soft change - it needs to be hard and personally applied, otherwise organisations just wriggle out as they always have done. I know it is how things are, but it can't be how things carry on any more. | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:23 - Sep 6 with 784 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:12 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
Not finding evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. People who are prejudiced and/or racist tend not to document or admit it, am sure you'll know that.
When those on the receiving end, speak of prejudice - I am quite content to take their word for it. They could of course all be making it up, but I doubt it.
Don't find listening to people's experiences and believing them remotely uncomfortable as it goes. |
what nonsense. this is after a 6 year public enquiry. "Not finding evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist." jeez. that's a phrase used by vaccine deniers, phone mast neurotics, and conspiracy theorists the world over.
people involved in all sorts of tragic events undoubtedly have their opinions - of course the relatives of victims feel appallingly let down and failed. but we have enquiries to uncover the objective truth and the enquiry doesn't support the political narrative you want to push. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:28 - Sep 6 with 760 views | RadioOrwell |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 10:31 - Sep 5 by RIPbobby |
I can tell you what will happen.
PM has said he will study the report. Which really means they will take bloody years to come to any conclusion and wait for as many of them to die? Just like the blood poisoning, post office and other disasters. |
You forgot the bit where they say " We must learn from this and make sure it doesn't happen again". |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:35 - Sep 6 with 750 views | bluelagos |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:23 - Sep 6 by lowhouseblue |
what nonsense. this is after a 6 year public enquiry. "Not finding evidence for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist." jeez. that's a phrase used by vaccine deniers, phone mast neurotics, and conspiracy theorists the world over.
people involved in all sorts of tragic events undoubtedly have their opinions - of course the relatives of victims feel appallingly let down and failed. but we have enquiries to uncover the objective truth and the enquiry doesn't support the political narrative you want to push. |
Is not my political narrative - is what Grenfell residents who raised concerns about safety have said themselves.
Anyhow - you are welcome to take the line from the inquiry, I'll opt to believe those who were actually there during those communications/discussions, whose concerns were ignored - even though the inquiry didn't find evidence of social bias in how the landlord behaved towards them.
Anyhow I'll opt out now - as I see no value in going round in circles on an issue that we will not agree on, clearly. Enjoy yer day. | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:37 - Sep 6 with 740 views | NthQldITFC |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:28 - Sep 6 by RadioOrwell |
You forgot the bit where they say " We must learn from this and make sure it doesn't happen again". |
And "we're working really hard on new policies to ensure, blah, blah, blah" | |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 16:02 - Sep 6 with 702 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 15:35 - Sep 6 by bluelagos |
Is not my political narrative - is what Grenfell residents who raised concerns about safety have said themselves.
Anyhow - you are welcome to take the line from the inquiry, I'll opt to believe those who were actually there during those communications/discussions, whose concerns were ignored - even though the inquiry didn't find evidence of social bias in how the landlord behaved towards them.
Anyhow I'll opt out now - as I see no value in going round in circles on an issue that we will not agree on, clearly. Enjoy yer day. |
fine. but how do you have civilised debate about policy issues and policy failures if people just choose to ignore the findings of an independent enquiry? it's not a grown up way of approaching difficult questions. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 07:52 - Sep 7 with 527 views | Buhrer |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 16:02 - Sep 6 by lowhouseblue |
fine. but how do you have civilised debate about policy issues and policy failures if people just choose to ignore the findings of an independent enquiry? it's not a grown up way of approaching difficult questions. |
Civilised or domesticated? Asking the 'grown up'. |  | | |
| Are we capable of ever forming a just and decent society? on 09:41 - Sep 7 with 473 views | OldFart71 |
You only have to look at sentences handed out to people who took part in things like The Great Train Robbery and Brinks Mat to see what's most important to the establishment. The Great Train Robbers got 30 years and that meant 30 years. Brinks Mat got between 25 and 14 years with the exception of the chap who tipped them off, who got 6 years. Yet many murderers who were once hung get far less. |  | | |
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