| Labour Party conference 08:21 - Sep 25 with 4388 views | onceablue |
That didn’t go well
It’s happened again - Party in opposition differs to the Party that then wins election
Labour bleated on for years about the immigration problem
They get in power realise they have no idea how to solve it so don’t mention it again.
They will raid peoples pensions over the next few years particularly those with private pensions. They do not want 60 + earning more than the average person from pensions. I have worked my nuts off all my life to ensure I can have a decent retirement supporting the Children etc and Mr Starmer in a very short time has decided that will not happen
I think if there was another election now I am not sure if Labour would win. Not sure any pensioners would vote for them. I know I wouldn’t |  | | |  |
| Labour Party conference on 10:15 - Sep 25 with 1307 views | baxterbasics |
| Labour Party conference on 10:07 - Sep 25 by Guthrum |
I think there's a lot of under-promising going on, to allow the budget to be less draconian than expected.
However, I also believe that things are not particularly rosy, with challenges to government revenue and long-term inflation having increased expenses. |
I think (and hope) your first point is correct. There is some expectations management going on. Same for this road-pricing madness which appears to be based on nothing official, possibly a backdoor leak to distract/test the water and make all us hard-working car-dependant drivers breathe a sigh of relief when it never happens. |  |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:17 - Sep 25 with 1292 views | Guthrum |
| Labour Party conference on 09:26 - Sep 25 by onceablue |
Don’t understand your point
Pensioners have been contributing to society all their lives paying tax and national insurance etc, I know I have
25,000 refugees have crossed the channel at a cost to the tax payer of nearly £1.4 billion pounds.
Cutting the Winter fuel tax saved the government £1.4 billion pounds
You do the maths
No one wants to have a honest conversation these days I am more than happy for this government to try and help the refugees of the world but they have to be honest to the British public.
I would happily pay a bit more tax to pay for the more vulnerable people in society but be honest about it. |
I don't entirely get the idea that people who still have a substantial income* should be able to stop contributing the moment they retire.
In reality, they don't, as pensions are still taxable. But it's the concept that they should be protected from extra burdens over other sectors of the population.
Migration is a global crisis and it's way beyond the power of any government to suddenly stop it. Not that the previous one actually made much practical effort, given the increasing numbers.
* Means tested, of course. Not advocating plundering the poor. |  |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:18 - Sep 25 with 1285 views | baxterbasics |
| Labour Party conference on 08:33 - Sep 25 by redrickstuhaart |
You sound a bit obsessed about small boats and people who sound a bit foreign.
Why is that?
You know the numbers are tiny in the scheme of things, and there might be other more important stuff, right? |
You are right, the 'small boats' much like winter fuel allowance is a drop in the ocean and a red herring, but provides the simplistic focus that commentators on all sides and headline writers enjoy. Immigration is a big issue for voters but it's legal inflows contributing to the record numbers. | |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:21 - Sep 25 with 1262 views | soupytwist |
| Labour Party conference on 10:15 - Sep 25 by baxterbasics |
I think (and hope) your first point is correct. There is some expectations management going on. Same for this road-pricing madness which appears to be based on nothing official, possibly a backdoor leak to distract/test the water and make all us hard-working car-dependant drivers breathe a sigh of relief when it never happens. |
The road-pricing thing is weird. I attended a presentation from my employer recently about a salary sacrifice electric car scheme and someone asked a question about whether the monthly payment for that would go up if it comes in.
I suppose that it might make sense for electric vehicles - currently low (if any) VED compared to regular cars, not paying fuel duty at the petrol pumps and domestic electricity attracts a lower VAT rate so not paying the same rate of tax there either when charged at home.
If it is just for electric vehicles, surely those making a fuss about the possibility currently would love it because they're mostly the same people moaning about us all being forced into EVs that will overwhelm the grid and damage the roads much more because they're so heavy? |  | | |
| Labour Party conference on 10:21 - Sep 25 with 1257 views | Benters |
| Labour Party conference on 08:42 - Sep 25 by onceablue |
Not obsessed with small boats but with the dishonesty of Politics.
The small boats is just an example of this.
Kier Starmer knew he could not solve this problem but claimed he would.
Kier Starmer knew he was going to cut the Winter Fuel allowance before he got elected.
Politicians basically lie to get into power and that frustrates the hell out of me. |
He wouldn’t answer the question on single persons council tax allowance either. |  |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:23 - Sep 25 with 1231 views | Blueschev |
| Labour Party conference on 10:21 - Sep 25 by Benters |
He wouldn’t answer the question on single persons council tax allowance either. |
Other than to rule it out. |  | | |
| Labour Party conference on 10:27 - Sep 25 with 1209 views | Guthrum |
| Labour Party conference on 10:15 - Sep 25 by baxterbasics |
I think (and hope) your first point is correct. There is some expectations management going on. Same for this road-pricing madness which appears to be based on nothing official, possibly a backdoor leak to distract/test the water and make all us hard-working car-dependant drivers breathe a sigh of relief when it never happens. |
Is per-mile road pricing a madness?
If properly put together (yeah, I know), there's no reason why it should be particularly draconian compared with current vehicle tax, especially if it incorporates some or all of fuel duty.
This speaking as someone who does a moderately high mileage and relies on my vehicle for work.
Referring back to the OP, it would actually help pensioners who keep a vehicle but do very low mileage. | |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:36 - Sep 25 with 1175 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour Party conference on 10:18 - Sep 25 by baxterbasics |
You are right, the 'small boats' much like winter fuel allowance is a drop in the ocean and a red herring, but provides the simplistic focus that commentators on all sides and headline writers enjoy. Immigration is a big issue for voters but it's legal inflows contributing to the record numbers. |
5% of immigration is from Small Boats rather than legal immigration over last couple of years, and the Rwanda scheme was going to send just 0.6% of those immigrants to Rwanda.
It was a scheme designed to target 250 people a year when there are 800,000 immigrants.
If you were getting on a small boat and there was a more than 99% chance you WOULDN'T be sent to Rwanda would that be much of a deterrent? And we spent over £300m on that. |  |
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| Labour Party conference on 10:47 - Sep 25 with 1135 views | Churchman |
The first government to start raiding and meddling with pension provision was the Tories in the late 80s. At that point in time, pension provision in this country was one of the best in the world. Successive governments have seen it as something to raid and mess about with so that’s no longer the case.
According to the HoC library, ‘comparison of state pension alone shows the UK providing a lower level of pension than most other advanced economies relative to average earnings, however, the relative position of pensioners converges if income from all sources is considered’. So as a percentage of GDP, state pension, pension benefits cost the taxpayer less than just about every other advanced country.
If income from all sources, including what few final salary schemes remain and money purchase schemes are the government’s target, which the Oct budget will confirm or otherwise, it’ll be fair to accuse them of an act of gross stupidity and possibly vindictiveness towards a group they perceive don’t vote for them. But they haven’t done anything yet so it’s best to judge after the Budget.
Pensioners amount to 18.6% of the population. Those people spend money. On necessities of life and other stuff. Many (rightly) pay tax. Given spending = other peoples’ income directly or through govt spending I’d be interested to know who benefits by taking that spending power away? You could say give it to working people. Well what’s the difference between working people spending it to retirees who earned it in the first place, unless you perceive pensioners to having no rights beyond subsistence living and death?
There is plenty the government can do, but they should at least try not to damage pension provision further as previous governments have done.
I have not worked for a few years. I have sufficient pensions (that I saved into) to pay income tax. I do not get a state pension yet but given I paid full NI contributions, I expect to. If the government was to say your own income/assets are enough so you get zilch in state pension, you could argue fair enough. But only if the government refunds 40 years full NI contributions to me. Well it’s your contribution to society? Well I already do that and have done so for decades.
Where I’m going with this is that if you say your usefulness to society at an end so if you were mug enough to save for retirement tough, you are encouraging working people to abandon any idea of saving for their retirement and loading greater state pension provision onto future generations. That can’t be right either morally or economically.
Apologies for the rant. In conclusion, there’s a lot of guessing, leaks and misinformation, inflammatory language out there. I doubt Reeves will do anything too punitive, tbh. How services are provided including pensions of course needs reforming and years of the Tory assault on just about everything reversing. HMG needs time, not least to move away from the insane rhetoric and hostility of the tories.
I suspect the budget of two years time will be more telling than this one. |  | | |
| Labour Party conference on 10:57 - Sep 25 with 1093 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party conference on 10:17 - Sep 25 by Guthrum |
I don't entirely get the idea that people who still have a substantial income* should be able to stop contributing the moment they retire.
In reality, they don't, as pensions are still taxable. But it's the concept that they should be protected from extra burdens over other sectors of the population.
Migration is a global crisis and it's way beyond the power of any government to suddenly stop it. Not that the previous one actually made much practical effort, given the increasing numbers.
* Means tested, of course. Not advocating plundering the poor. |
The problem with means testing is that it is expensive. The decision to link winter fuel allowance to pension credit is a cheap option but it impacts are those with a low income but not low enough to qualify for pension credit.
A crude, unworthy , but cost effective solution.
On tax it is worth remembering that for every additional £5 paid by state pension for many £1 goes back to the exchequer in income tax. |  |
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| Labour Party conference on 11:18 - Sep 25 with 1046 views | Guthrum |
| Labour Party conference on 10:57 - Sep 25 by Pinewoodblue |
The problem with means testing is that it is expensive. The decision to link winter fuel allowance to pension credit is a cheap option but it impacts are those with a low income but not low enough to qualify for pension credit.
A crude, unworthy , but cost effective solution.
On tax it is worth remembering that for every additional £5 paid by state pension for many £1 goes back to the exchequer in income tax. |
Means testing is expensive, but we already have structures in place within both HMRC and the benefits system. There's a lot to be said for putting together what we already have and applying it to the problem.
In some ways it was a slightly silly headline-grabbing thing to make WFA a separate payment in the first place, rather than just boosting the state pension by the same amount (which those on low incomes wouldn't have been taxed on). | |
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| Labour Party conference on 11:24 - Sep 25 with 1027 views | Guthrum |
| Labour Party conference on 09:33 - Sep 25 by Basuco |
As I understand it the point is, is it right that after contributing all your working life you get a state pension of less than £12K per annum? Which if you don't own your property doesn't cover the rent for many, let alone allow you to eat and pay other household bills. |
Pensioners who rent are eligible for Housing Benefit. | |
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| Labour Party conference on 12:05 - Sep 25 with 954 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party conference on 11:18 - Sep 25 by Guthrum |
Means testing is expensive, but we already have structures in place within both HMRC and the benefits system. There's a lot to be said for putting together what we already have and applying it to the problem.
In some ways it was a slightly silly headline-grabbing thing to make WFA a separate payment in the first place, rather than just boosting the state pension by the same amount (which those on low incomes wouldn't have been taxed on). |
There is a good argument for making all benefits taxable but you wouldn’t expect a Labour government to be the one to implement such a big change.
We did however vote for change, and are beginning to realise that it wasn’t just getting rid of the Tories but far more significant changes in so many ways. None of which were mentioned pre-election. | |
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| Labour Party conference on 12:59 - Sep 25 with 896 views | Guthrum |
| Labour Party conference on 12:05 - Sep 25 by Pinewoodblue |
There is a good argument for making all benefits taxable but you wouldn’t expect a Labour government to be the one to implement such a big change.
We did however vote for change, and are beginning to realise that it wasn’t just getting rid of the Tories but far more significant changes in so many ways. None of which were mentioned pre-election. |
Are the changes so significant? The previous government were just as keen on cuts and imaginary efficiency trimmings.
The rhetoric hasn't shifted very much, with Starmer talking about cracking down on benefits recipients, as if that will somehow fill any voids in the country's coffers. | |
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| Labour Party conference on 12:59 - Sep 25 with 897 views | Basuco |
| Labour Party conference on 09:17 - Sep 25 by soupytwist |
You'd think that the situation where they've worked hard all their lives but still need a handout to afford their heating bills would make them more angry. |
Similar to couples who are both in full time work and whose income is still sufficiently low to qualify for benefits. Why would any Government allow this? Tax payers should not be subsidising employers who give low rates of pay. |  | | |
| Labour Party conference on 13:11 - Sep 25 with 863 views | Basuco |
| Labour Party conference on 10:21 - Sep 25 by soupytwist |
The road-pricing thing is weird. I attended a presentation from my employer recently about a salary sacrifice electric car scheme and someone asked a question about whether the monthly payment for that would go up if it comes in.
I suppose that it might make sense for electric vehicles - currently low (if any) VED compared to regular cars, not paying fuel duty at the petrol pumps and domestic electricity attracts a lower VAT rate so not paying the same rate of tax there either when charged at home.
If it is just for electric vehicles, surely those making a fuss about the possibility currently would love it because they're mostly the same people moaning about us all being forced into EVs that will overwhelm the grid and damage the roads much more because they're so heavy? |
EV's must be costing the Government a fortune, no vehicle tax, no duty as electricity is not a fuel, if self employed you can claim the full cost of the vehicle against income tax. It is like a totally free car, apart from charging it up of course. With so many zero rated petrol and diesel cars around as well the only Government income is the duty on petrol and diesel. So road pricing, or a replacement for road and fuel tax has to come in at some point. | | | |
| Labour Party conference on 13:23 - Sep 25 with 818 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Labour Party conference on 10:18 - Sep 25 by baxterbasics |
You are right, the 'small boats' much like winter fuel allowance is a drop in the ocean and a red herring, but provides the simplistic focus that commentators on all sides and headline writers enjoy. Immigration is a big issue for voters but it's legal inflows contributing to the record numbers. |
Legal inflow needed to fill jobs tjat are paid or treated too poorly to be attractive to native folk.
See the broken nhs.... | | | |
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