| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah 22:39 - Sep 25 with 11862 views | WicklowBlue |
Wanted to start a new thread on the history behind where things are today.
I am no historian nor ever really had a deep insight into what has led up to recent times.
I read this article earlier today which I thought was insightful personally in terms of historical context so thought I'd share for hopefully a reseasoned discussion: (namely not picking sides, as all have done abhorrent things to each other, and honestly no agenda on my behalf)
RTE news : What happened when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?
http://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0925/1471773-israel-lebanon-invasion-1982-oper |  | | |  |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:18 - Sep 29 with 1075 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:55 - Sep 26 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Who might those people be then GB and links to where they stated such please. |
As you're here!!
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:25 - Sep 29 with 1047 views | DJR |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 21:55 - Sep 28 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/09/28/hassan-nasrallahs-de
Interesting piece about the death of Nasrallah:
“ For years Hizbullah has been a loyal servant of Iran. The group played a crucial role in propping up Bashar al-Assad’s bloody regime in Syria, and it provides training and guidance to other Iranian-backed militias in Iraq and Yemen. No surprise, then, that some Arabs reacted with glee to Mr Nasrallah’s death. In Idlib, a rebel-held pocket of Syria, people handed out sweets to celebrate: Syrians will remember Mr Nasrallah as a butcher whose men starved and killed them. ”
and potential ramifications for Hezbollah:
“ Mr Nasrallah spent years talking up the “axis of resistance”, a constellation of Iran-backed militias committed to fighting Israel and America. He said they were strong and united. Then Israel decapitated the most powerful militia in a matter of weeks, while Iran sat idle. Hizbullah is not about to disappear: it has thousands of armed partisans, an arsenal of long-range missiles and a base of popular support. But the militia that emerges from this war will be very different from the one that entered it. ” |
I came across this written 10 days ago.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/experts-react/experts-reac |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:14 - Sep 29 with 965 views | Crawfordsboot |
Thanks - it provides an interesting historical context as do other posts here.
For my part I think there is a limit to how far back one can go to justify or explain the current situation. Hostilities and alliances from the Second World War are now largely historic and no longer shape our politics. On the other hand it would seem reasonable to expect current positions to be shaped by lived experience of those alive today. That lived experience (2008-2020) for the Palestinians is highlighted here:
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-a
This shows 5,590 Palestinian deaths against 251 Israelis during a period where Israel has run a system of apartheid and pushed Arabs off their lands and settlers moved in. Israel hold thousands of Palestinian prisoners without trial (hostages?)
In this context I am surprised that the events of Oct 7th did not occur sooner.
Add in to this the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.
Had western governments insisted on fair treatment of the Palestinians and stopped Israeli land grabs Oct. 7th would surely not have happened.
Edited to add: Deaths since Oct 7th - Palestinian 42,252 - Israeli 1,139. And counting.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:37]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:26 - Sep 29 with 935 views | NthQldITFC |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:14 - Sep 29 by Crawfordsboot |
Thanks - it provides an interesting historical context as do other posts here.
For my part I think there is a limit to how far back one can go to justify or explain the current situation. Hostilities and alliances from the Second World War are now largely historic and no longer shape our politics. On the other hand it would seem reasonable to expect current positions to be shaped by lived experience of those alive today. That lived experience (2008-2020) for the Palestinians is highlighted here:
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-a
This shows 5,590 Palestinian deaths against 251 Israelis during a period where Israel has run a system of apartheid and pushed Arabs off their lands and settlers moved in. Israel hold thousands of Palestinian prisoners without trial (hostages?)
In this context I am surprised that the events of Oct 7th did not occur sooner.
Add in to this the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.
Had western governments insisted on fair treatment of the Palestinians and stopped Israeli land grabs Oct. 7th would surely not have happened.
Edited to add: Deaths since Oct 7th - Palestinian 42,252 - Israeli 1,139. And counting.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:37]
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Now that is, I think, a very good and fair post and one with which I completely agree.
In that period, there's about a 20:1 deaths imbalance, and a little higher than that on injuries.
As you say, direct experience, or at most second hand knowledge (direct from someone who had direct experience, at longest someone old enough to understand listening to a grandparent at length) is about the limit when it comes to balancing out against direct pain and death being experienced right now.
This extremist Israeli government has decided it can do what it wants now, and completely snub the US. The US cannot withdraw support or Israel will be destroyed. Countries like the UK could maybe take a stand here (possibly with the blessing of the US government behind the scenes) and withdraw diplomats. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:50 - Sep 29 with 871 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:14 - Sep 29 by Crawfordsboot |
Thanks - it provides an interesting historical context as do other posts here.
For my part I think there is a limit to how far back one can go to justify or explain the current situation. Hostilities and alliances from the Second World War are now largely historic and no longer shape our politics. On the other hand it would seem reasonable to expect current positions to be shaped by lived experience of those alive today. That lived experience (2008-2020) for the Palestinians is highlighted here:
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-a
This shows 5,590 Palestinian deaths against 251 Israelis during a period where Israel has run a system of apartheid and pushed Arabs off their lands and settlers moved in. Israel hold thousands of Palestinian prisoners without trial (hostages?)
In this context I am surprised that the events of Oct 7th did not occur sooner.
Add in to this the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.
Had western governments insisted on fair treatment of the Palestinians and stopped Israeli land grabs Oct. 7th would surely not have happened.
Edited to add: Deaths since Oct 7th - Palestinian 42,252 - Israeli 1,139. And counting.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:37]
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“ the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.”
The IHRA definition of antisemitism.
“ Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.”
Seriously, this place is turning into an absolute cesspit. Imagine somebody posted that “the rape, murder and mutilation of 1200 innocent Israelis on October 7th bring shame and damage on the wider a Muslim population around the world” they would be called out as racist by scores of other posters. Not only does your post go unchallenged but somebody actually posts in agreement with you.
The sort of language you use is the reason so many Jews around the world are constantly under attack. You should be ashamed of yourself. [Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:59]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:56 - Sep 29 with 849 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:50 - Sep 29 by GlasgowBlue |
“ the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.”
The IHRA definition of antisemitism.
“ Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.”
Seriously, this place is turning into an absolute cesspit. Imagine somebody posted that “the rape, murder and mutilation of 1200 innocent Israelis on October 7th bring shame and damage on the wider a Muslim population around the world” they would be called out as racist by scores of other posters. Not only does your post go unchallenged but somebody actually posts in agreement with you.
The sort of language you use is the reason so many Jews around the world are constantly under attack. You should be ashamed of yourself. [Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:59]
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Nonsense isn't it, yet suitably vague that you can cite this as an example. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:58 - Sep 29 with 845 views | Crawfordsboot |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:50 - Sep 29 by GlasgowBlue |
“ the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.”
The IHRA definition of antisemitism.
“ Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.”
Seriously, this place is turning into an absolute cesspit. Imagine somebody posted that “the rape, murder and mutilation of 1200 innocent Israelis on October 7th bring shame and damage on the wider a Muslim population around the world” they would be called out as racist by scores of other posters. Not only does your post go unchallenged but somebody actually posts in agreement with you.
The sort of language you use is the reason so many Jews around the world are constantly under attack. You should be ashamed of yourself. [Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:59]
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Yes - my point too - I in no way blame Jewish people in the Uk and it is unfair on them, many of whom detest the Netanyahu govt which frequently depicts criticism of Israel as antisemitic. It takes every opportunity to conflate Israel and Jews to the detriment of the wider Jewish population. | | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:05 - Sep 29 with 811 views | victorywilhappen |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:58 - Sep 29 by Crawfordsboot |
Yes - my point too - I in no way blame Jewish people in the Uk and it is unfair on them, many of whom detest the Netanyahu govt which frequently depicts criticism of Israel as antisemitic. It takes every opportunity to conflate Israel and Jews to the detriment of the wider Jewish population. |
Guilt and shame often go hand in hand, but that doesn't mean they're the same thing. While guilt is a response to a specific event or behaviour, shame affects how you feel about yourself. |  | | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:08 - Sep 29 with 797 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:48 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Not according to some on here. |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:11 - Sep 29 with 775 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:58 - Sep 29 by Crawfordsboot |
Yes - my point too - I in no way blame Jewish people in the Uk and it is unfair on them, many of whom detest the Netanyahu govt which frequently depicts criticism of Israel as antisemitic. It takes every opportunity to conflate Israel and Jews to the detriment of the wider Jewish population. |
Too late, you've been labelled now!! | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:27 - Sep 29 with 716 views | WeWereZombies |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:26 - Sep 29 by NthQldITFC |
Now that is, I think, a very good and fair post and one with which I completely agree.
In that period, there's about a 20:1 deaths imbalance, and a little higher than that on injuries.
As you say, direct experience, or at most second hand knowledge (direct from someone who had direct experience, at longest someone old enough to understand listening to a grandparent at length) is about the limit when it comes to balancing out against direct pain and death being experienced right now.
This extremist Israeli government has decided it can do what it wants now, and completely snub the US. The US cannot withdraw support or Israel will be destroyed. Countries like the UK could maybe take a stand here (possibly with the blessing of the US government behind the scenes) and withdraw diplomats. |
Not sure what to make of your point here. I have had direct experience of a revolution in North Africa, have known an Arab who studied in Israel, an Uncle who witnessed a terrible event when he served in the Royal Navy (by strange coincidence probably within a hundred miles of where I saw what revolution means almost seventy years later) and grew up seeing the effects of the Second World War on my mother and plenty of other older people around me. I don't think any of that allows me to say I can imagine what it is like to be bombed out of your home at, say, eight years of age (whether the cause is an operation by the Israeli Defence Force or a missile into Northern Israel fired by Hezbollah.) |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:31 - Sep 29 with 713 views | victorywilhappen |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 10:14 - Sep 29 by Crawfordsboot |
Thanks - it provides an interesting historical context as do other posts here.
For my part I think there is a limit to how far back one can go to justify or explain the current situation. Hostilities and alliances from the Second World War are now largely historic and no longer shape our politics. On the other hand it would seem reasonable to expect current positions to be shaped by lived experience of those alive today. That lived experience (2008-2020) for the Palestinians is highlighted here:
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-a
This shows 5,590 Palestinian deaths against 251 Israelis during a period where Israel has run a system of apartheid and pushed Arabs off their lands and settlers moved in. Israel hold thousands of Palestinian prisoners without trial (hostages?)
In this context I am surprised that the events of Oct 7th did not occur sooner.
Add in to this the wholly disproportionate response of the extreme right wing Netanyahu govt and we have the situation today where Israel’s actions bring shame and damage on the wider Jewish population around the world.
Had western governments insisted on fair treatment of the Palestinians and stopped Israeli land grabs Oct. 7th would surely not have happened.
Edited to add: Deaths since Oct 7th - Palestinian 42,252 - Israeli 1,139. And counting.
[Post edited 29 Sep 2024 10:37]
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'it would seem reasonable to expect current positions to be shaped by lived experience of those alive today'
And maybe this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/04/world/middleeast/to-shape-young-palestinians- | | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:47 - Sep 29 with 656 views | WeWereZombies |
That's an interesting, if depressing, read. I've seen schoolbooks ripped up and discarded in an alleyway in Jordan, which was bad enough and when I spoke to the owner of the hotel we were staying at all he could do was give a regretful shrug. In an embattled place like Gaza the potential for recruitment of a generation of youth is clearly much magnified, and without a significant United Nations peacekeeping presence it can only lead to new legions of rebels intent on fighting to the death. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 11:53 - Sep 29 with 643 views | leitrimblue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:15 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
History shows that There was a Kingdom of Israel long before the name Palestine even existed. Even the name "Palestine" evolves from the Roman term "Syria Palaestina". When the Romans put down the Bar Kokhba revolt by the Jews against the occupation of Judea, the Romans renamed the Jewish homeland "Syria Palaestina".
I see people often refer to the Israelis as "colonisers", but the Palestinian people descend from the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th century. Colonisers are the people that built on top of the Jewish story. For example, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was built on the ruins of the Second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans. |
This post leaves me with a few questions
Are you suggesting that the majority of the Palestinian population are genetically descended from the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th Century?
Do you have evidence or references for this?
Are you aware that the term Palestine was used to describe this area as early as the 5th century BC and probably earlier? |  | | |
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