| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah 22:39 - Sep 25 with 11891 views | WicklowBlue |
Wanted to start a new thread on the history behind where things are today.
I am no historian nor ever really had a deep insight into what has led up to recent times.
I read this article earlier today which I thought was insightful personally in terms of historical context so thought I'd share for hopefully a reseasoned discussion: (namely not picking sides, as all have done abhorrent things to each other, and honestly no agenda on my behalf)
RTE news : What happened when Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982?
http://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2024/0925/1471773-israel-lebanon-invasion-1982-oper |  | | |  |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 16:07 - Sep 26 with 1883 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:59 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Tho the Philistines were a "Palestinian" state, given their name, assumed to be cognate with the Peleset (one of the Sea Peoples), is from whence the region derives its name.
There is also the Nabateans, a powerful, ethnically Arab trading kingdom which covered part of the region to the south and east of Judea up to the 1st century AD. The city of Petra being their capital. |
But the Philistines were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BC and are not the ancestors of the Palestinians. There is the thought that the Romans purposely picked the name Palaestina because of it's similarity to the ancient foes of the Israelites. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 16:16 - Sep 26 with 1832 views | leitrimblue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:59 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Tho the Philistines were a "Palestinian" state, given their name, assumed to be cognate with the Peleset (one of the Sea Peoples), is from whence the region derives its name.
There is also the Nabateans, a powerful, ethnically Arab trading kingdom which covered part of the region to the south and east of Judea up to the 1st century AD. The city of Petra being their capital. |
Herodotos also describes the area between Egypt and Phoenicia as Palastine in the Histories ( 5th Century BC ).
Think there may be even earlier references from an Egyptian context |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:20 - Sep 26 with 1744 views | DJR |
As this thread has moved away from Hezbollah and Lebanon, this is as good a place for this as any. Of course, this sort of thing isn't just going on in Gaza with terrible conflict in places like Sudan, but it certainly could be said that the adults of this world are letting down the children.
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/notes/ongoing-war-gaza-will-set-children-and-youn [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 17:20]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:31 - Sep 26 with 1718 views | Bobbychase |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:26 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
It's complicated. They are misunderstood. Shouldn't be called terrorists. etc etc. |
Not terrorists. Riiiiiiight |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:38 - Sep 26 with 1706 views | Radlett_blue |
Hmm..Israel's aim in 1975 was to "eliminate the PLO", which I'm sure much of the West saw then as a terrorist organisation. Now, their aim is to "eliminate Hamas". Anyone think that's actually going to work in anything but the short term, or that this action won't spawn another Arab resistance group? |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:38 - Sep 26 with 1703 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 08:49 - Sep 26 by Swansea_Blue |
As Martin Luther King put it: “Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness”. |
Unfortunately the players involved all believe that "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" is a minimum command rather than a statute of limitation that meant punishment should be proportional to the crime and no more.
Martin Luther King was a truly remarkable man. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:42 - Sep 26 with 1699 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 14:24 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed.
It was British Mandated Palestine. Not an independent Palestinian state.
As you say, before the British Mandate, there was the Ottoman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ottoman Empire, there was the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Islamic state of the Mamluks of Egypt, there was the Ayubid Arab-Kurdish Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Ayubid Empire, there was the Frankish and Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdom of Jerusalem, there was the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Umayyad and Fatimid empires, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there were the Sassanids, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Sassanid Empire, there was the Byzantine Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Byzantine Empire, there was the Roman Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Roman Empire, there was the Hasmonean state, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Hasmonean state, there was the Seleucid, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Seleucid empire, there was the empire of Alexander the Great, not a Palestinian state.
Before the empire of Alexander the Great, there was the Persian empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Persian Empire, there was the Babylonian Empire, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Babylonian Empire, there were the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, not a Palestinian state.
Before the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, there was the Kingdom of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the kingdom of Israel, there was the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, not a Palestinian state.
Before the theocracy of the twelve tribes of Israel, there was an agglomeration of independent Canaanite city-kingdoms, not a Palestinian state. |
The problem is that we are dealing with people living and all-too-often suffering and dying where they are now. That is in Palestine, Gaza, Israel, Lebanon, Jerusalem, wherever. The whole situation is an absolute and increasingly bloody mess.
I am sure many indigenous people groups around the world would reference historical boundaries and ownership. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:44 - Sep 26 with 1698 views | Whos_blue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:59 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
Tho the Philistines were a "Palestinian" state, given their name, assumed to be cognate with the Peleset (one of the Sea Peoples), is from whence the region derives its name.
There is also the Nabateans, a powerful, ethnically Arab trading kingdom which covered part of the region to the south and east of Judea up to the 1st century AD. The city of Petra being their capital. |
Jeez Guthers. Don't bring Judea into it. All we'll have now is the People's front of Judea and the Judean People's front going at it!
10 pager incoming. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:47 - Sep 26 with 1691 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:44 - Sep 26 by Whos_blue |
Jeez Guthers. Don't bring Judea into it. All we'll have now is the People's front of Judea and the Judean People's front going at it!
10 pager incoming. |
Would that be the first 10-pager since ... | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:48 - Sep 26 with 1685 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:31 - Sep 26 by Bobbychase |
Not terrorists. Riiiiiiight |
Not according to some on here. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:48 - Sep 26 with 1683 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:44 - Sep 26 by Whos_blue |
Jeez Guthers. Don't bring Judea into it. All we'll have now is the People's front of Judea and the Judean People's front going at it!
10 pager incoming. |
Splitters. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:50 - Sep 26 with 1681 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:42 - Sep 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The problem is that we are dealing with people living and all-too-often suffering and dying where they are now. That is in Palestine, Gaza, Israel, Lebanon, Jerusalem, wherever. The whole situation is an absolute and increasingly bloody mess.
I am sure many indigenous people groups around the world would reference historical boundaries and ownership. |
I agree. My reply was specifically to guthers who was replying to Blueschev regarding the Arab countries who strangled a two state solution at birth. [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 17:51]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:55 - Sep 26 with 1652 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:48 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Not according to some on here. |
Who might those people be then GB and links to where they stated such please. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:59 - Sep 26 with 1632 views | BlueForYou |
Lebanon was a relatively peaceful place until the six day war in 1967. Thousands of Palestinians fled to the southern area, & it wasn't long before trouble broke out & the Civil War erupted.
Good post Glasgow Blue by the way! |  | | |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:07 - Sep 26 with 1600 views | Whos_blue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 15:15 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
History shows that There was a Kingdom of Israel long before the name Palestine even existed. Even the name "Palestine" evolves from the Roman term "Syria Palaestina". When the Romans put down the Bar Kokhba revolt by the Jews against the occupation of Judea, the Romans renamed the Jewish homeland "Syria Palaestina".
I see people often refer to the Israelis as "colonisers", but the Palestinian people descend from the Muslim conquest of the Levant in the 7th century. Colonisers are the people that built on top of the Jewish story. For example, the Al-Aqsa Mosque was built on the ruins of the Second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans. |
Which does of course beg the obvious question of just where on Earth should the Palestinians be allowed to exist? | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:08 - Sep 26 with 1597 views | Whos_blue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:47 - Sep 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Would that be the first 10-pager since ... |
No!
Just No! | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:11 - Sep 26 with 1575 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:07 - Sep 26 by Whos_blue |
Which does of course beg the obvious question of just where on Earth should the Palestinians be allowed to exist? |
In the 1948 borders as mandated by the United Nations. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:22 - Sep 26 with 1544 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:59 - Sep 26 by BlueForYou |
Lebanon was a relatively peaceful place until the six day war in 1967. Thousands of Palestinians fled to the southern area, & it wasn't long before trouble broke out & the Civil War erupted.
Good post Glasgow Blue by the way! |
Some of that was down the the events of Black September in 1970. An attempted coup by restive PLO elements in Jordan (dissatisfied at what they saw as King Hussein's weak opposition to Israel) led to a violent crackdown and Palestinian refugees being forced from the country. |  |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:24 - Sep 26 with 1533 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:55 - Sep 26 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Who might those people be then GB and links to where they stated such please. |
Here you go GB, try again....you seem to have missed this one. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:28 - Sep 26 with 1523 views | DJR |
I don't think going back millennia is a good way to considers issues such as this but if people are to do so, I suppose this is another way of looking at things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians
Here are some extracts.
More recent studies since 2017 have found that Palestinians, and other Levantine people, are primarily descended from ancient Levantines present in what is today Israel and Palestine, dating back at least 3700 years.
A 2020 study on human remains from Middle Bronze Age Palestinian (2100–1550 BC) populations suggests a significant degree of genetic continuity in Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (such as Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Bedouins, and Syrians), as well as several Jewish groups (such as Ashkenazi, Iranian, and Moroccan Jews). Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantines, relating to Canaanites as well as Kura–Araxes culture impact from before 2400 BCE (4400 years before present); 8–12% from an East African source and 5–10% from Bronze age Europeans. Results show that a significant European component was added to the region since the Bronze Age (on average ~8.7%), seemingly related to the Sea Peoples, excluding Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews who harbour ~ 41% and 31% European-related ancestry respectively, both populations having a history in Europe.
A 2021 study by the New York Genome Center found that the predominant component of the DNA of modern Palestinians matches that of Bronze Age Palestinian Canaanites who lived around 2500–1700 BCE. [Post edited 26 Sep 2024 18:31]
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:37 - Sep 26 with 1482 views | Bobbychase |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 17:48 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Not according to some on here. |
Anyone who tries to argue Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation should look at their role in propping up Assad in Syria. Take any horrific act committed by Israeli forces in Gaza and Assad will have topped it, against his own people. That's who Hezbollah fights for.
Maybe start with the Ghouta 2013 attack, where he used sarin on kids. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:43 - Sep 26 with 1457 views | Guthrum |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 16:07 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
But the Philistines were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BC and are not the ancestors of the Palestinians. There is the thought that the Romans purposely picked the name Palaestina because of it's similarity to the ancient foes of the Israelites. |
The Philistines (or, at least, the upper echelons of that society) may not have been semitic at all. The Sea Peoples are conjectured to have come from the Aegean or north of that, possibly associated with the so-called "Dorian Invasion" during the Late Bronze Age Collapse.
Regional names can also long survive the demise of their former occupants/rulers. Romania, for example. Named after the (Eastern/Byzantine) Romans, who haven't controlled the area for over 1,300 years and whose population was largely displaced by slavs (eventually). | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:47 - Sep 26 with 1442 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:37 - Sep 26 by Bobbychase |
Anyone who tries to argue Hezbollah is not a terrorist organisation should look at their role in propping up Assad in Syria. Take any horrific act committed by Israeli forces in Gaza and Assad will have topped it, against his own people. That's who Hezbollah fights for.
Maybe start with the Ghouta 2013 attack, where he used sarin on kids. |
Hezbollah commander Hussein Ali Ghandour placed thousands of innocent Syrian people in Madaya under starvation siege. He was taken out by an exploding pager last week. Which seemed to offend a few people. | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:48 - Sep 26 with 1438 views | Bobbychase |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:47 - Sep 26 by GlasgowBlue |
Hezbollah commander Hussein Ali Ghandour placed thousands of innocent Syrian people in Madaya under starvation siege. He was taken out by an exploding pager last week. Which seemed to offend a few people. |
If it walks like a terrorist, talks like a terrorist, acts like a terrorist....etc | |
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| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:50 - Sep 26 with 1432 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The 1982 Israel invasion and The Birth of Hezbollah on 18:43 - Sep 26 by Guthrum |
The Philistines (or, at least, the upper echelons of that society) may not have been semitic at all. The Sea Peoples are conjectured to have come from the Aegean or north of that, possibly associated with the so-called "Dorian Invasion" during the Late Bronze Age Collapse.
Regional names can also long survive the demise of their former occupants/rulers. Romania, for example. Named after the (Eastern/Byzantine) Romans, who haven't controlled the area for over 1,300 years and whose population was largely displaced by slavs (eventually). |
Yes it is believed that they originated from Greece and the Balkans. | |
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