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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 12:39 - Oct 17 by wkj
That is what Israel asserts, from the broader scope of the source material you've posted
Citation
BBC News. (2024) ‘Israel's row with UN over Lebanon peacekeepers driven by long distrust’, BBC News, 17 October. Available at: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9j74z7xvmo (Accessed: 17 October 2024).
It's not an assertion. United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701 cleary states:
"the withdrawal of Hezbollah and other forces from Lebanon south of the Litani, the disarmament of Hezbollah and other armed groups, and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon, with no armed forces other than UNIFIL and Lebanese military south of the Litani River, which flows about 29 km (18 mi) north of the border".
Israel withdrew in 2006, Hezbollah has been freely operating in the south of Lebanon for the past 18 years.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 12:51 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue
It's not an assertion. United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701 cleary states:
"the withdrawal of Hezbollah and other forces from Lebanon south of the Litani, the disarmament of Hezbollah and other armed groups, and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon, with no armed forces other than UNIFIL and Lebanese military south of the Litani River, which flows about 29 km (18 mi) north of the border".
Israel withdrew in 2006, Hezbollah has been freely operating in the south of Lebanon for the past 18 years.
You might want to raise that point with the BBC then.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:06 - Oct 17 by wkj
You might want to raise that point with the BBC then.
Why? The BBC article you linked also states that “ under UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended the 2006 war, the UN was meant to create an area in southern Lebanon free of armed forces other than those of the Lebanese army”.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:20 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue
Why? The BBC article you linked also states that “ under UN Security Council Resolution 1701, which ended the 2006 war, the UN was meant to create an area in southern Lebanon free of armed forces other than those of the Lebanese army”.
Which follows the line of 'Israel accusing' (I used the word asserting interchangeably here)
The reason I highlighted this is that I think it is important that linked material that is presented verbatim should include the broader dialogue. If not you end up with misinformation and fabrications such as a host of made up sources that were used by the USA Today or Elon Perry at the Jewish Chronicle
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:27 - Oct 17 by wkj
Which follows the line of 'Israel accusing' (I used the word asserting interchangeably here)
The reason I highlighted this is that I think it is important that linked material that is presented verbatim should include the broader dialogue. If not you end up with misinformation and fabrications such as a host of made up sources that were used by the USA Today or Elon Perry at the Jewish Chronicle
The UN has reported hundreds of violations from both Hezbollah and Israel since 2006. Western observers (both governmental and private) have observed significant Hezbollah activity in the UN zone even if you don’t take Israeli intelligence at face value.
Hezbollah were also supposed to disarm, neither the UN nor Lebanese army could safely ensure this. They have violated the resolution by increasing their armaments significantly since the 2006 conflict, they are able to operate with impunity in the South.
Unfortunately, not only has UNFIL proven to be ineffective, but the violations of both sides have sadlyled to the death of over 300 peacekeepers (albeit some of these were prior to the Resolution).
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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:59 - Oct 17 with 1934 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:27 - Oct 17 by wkj
Which follows the line of 'Israel accusing' (I used the word asserting interchangeably here)
The reason I highlighted this is that I think it is important that linked material that is presented verbatim should include the broader dialogue. If not you end up with misinformation and fabrications such as a host of made up sources that were used by the USA Today or Elon Perry at the Jewish Chronicle
I don't think I shall be engaging with you anymore. You are casually throwing in words like 'misinformation' and 'fabrication' at my post despite me quoting UN resolution 1701 directly.
I note that you have added a link from the Guardian regarding the Jewish Chronicle contributor who turned out to be providing fake stories, of which 13 were removed from the JC's website and the contributor dismissed. If you were to play by your own rules you would also have added that the Guardian hd a similar issue 8 years ago. Instead, you deliberately use the JC as an example. I see your game.
For this reason, and the fact that since your return you have not made a single positive or worthwhile contribution to this board and your only purpose seems to be critiquing certain posters and cheerleading for the return of [redacted] and [redacted], you are on the div list.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:59 - Oct 17 by GlasgowBlue
I don't think I shall be engaging with you anymore. You are casually throwing in words like 'misinformation' and 'fabrication' at my post despite me quoting UN resolution 1701 directly.
I note that you have added a link from the Guardian regarding the Jewish Chronicle contributor who turned out to be providing fake stories, of which 13 were removed from the JC's website and the contributor dismissed. If you were to play by your own rules you would also have added that the Guardian hd a similar issue 8 years ago. Instead, you deliberately use the JC as an example. I see your game.
For this reason, and the fact that since your return you have not made a single positive or worthwhile contribution to this board and your only purpose seems to be critiquing certain posters and cheerleading for the return of [redacted] and [redacted], you are on the div list.
There is no game, I used two of the most recent examples I have come across via work and research. I have made many references about being critical of sources, even the ones that I use. The USA Today incident was more egregious which is why I lead with it.
If I were to ignore one of the most recent examples to avoid your accusation that I am playing a game, then I would be cherry picking my sources and wilfully dishonest and betraying my own call for objectivity when evaluating information.
You've kind of accused me of what you're doing yourself in the last paragraph, and I won't join you in a race to the bottom. As for being on the div list - I can handle that as an admission that you can't rattle me up to the point of getting myself banned, like others.
As for championing the cause of Footers and Stokie - Yes, I enjoyed a lot of what they brought to the board, especially in the days where button pushing and provocation were not thrown around.
Enjoy the forum with the lack of me visible to you, but I will always challenge copy/paste sources that obscure the larger picture.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:53 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
The UN has reported hundreds of violations from both Hezbollah and Israel since 2006. Western observers (both governmental and private) have observed significant Hezbollah activity in the UN zone even if you don’t take Israeli intelligence at face value.
Hezbollah were also supposed to disarm, neither the UN nor Lebanese army could safely ensure this. They have violated the resolution by increasing their armaments significantly since the 2006 conflict, they are able to operate with impunity in the South.
Unfortunately, not only has UNFIL proven to be ineffective, but the violations of both sides have sadlyled to the death of over 300 peacekeepers (albeit some of these were prior to the Resolution).
Hell demand sources for every word you have posted except 'violations from Israel'.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:53 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
The UN has reported hundreds of violations from both Hezbollah and Israel since 2006. Western observers (both governmental and private) have observed significant Hezbollah activity in the UN zone even if you don’t take Israeli intelligence at face value.
Hezbollah were also supposed to disarm, neither the UN nor Lebanese army could safely ensure this. They have violated the resolution by increasing their armaments significantly since the 2006 conflict, they are able to operate with impunity in the South.
Unfortunately, not only has UNFIL proven to be ineffective, but the violations of both sides have sadlyled to the death of over 300 peacekeepers (albeit some of these were prior to the Resolution).
this reads as a quite careful and balanced analysis of hezbollah's expansion in that area:
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:19 - Oct 17 with 1863 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 13:53 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
The UN has reported hundreds of violations from both Hezbollah and Israel since 2006. Western observers (both governmental and private) have observed significant Hezbollah activity in the UN zone even if you don’t take Israeli intelligence at face value.
Hezbollah were also supposed to disarm, neither the UN nor Lebanese army could safely ensure this. They have violated the resolution by increasing their armaments significantly since the 2006 conflict, they are able to operate with impunity in the South.
Unfortunately, not only has UNFIL proven to be ineffective, but the violations of both sides have sadlyled to the death of over 300 peacekeepers (albeit some of these were prior to the Resolution).
I doesn't seem to lack plausibility, nor the time where I cited to source material. Stability in the middle east seems to be the golden goose egg that is out of everyone's grasp, regardless of the agency name.
I think it is very important to include the wider source material, or things start getting confused and potentially presented in a way that does the source material a disservice.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:19 - Oct 17 by wkj
I doesn't seem to lack plausibility, nor the time where I cited to source material. Stability in the middle east seems to be the golden goose egg that is out of everyone's grasp, regardless of the agency name.
I think it is very important to include the wider source material, or things start getting confused and potentially presented in a way that does the source material a disservice.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2024 14:28]
What lacks plausibility?
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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Oct 17 with 1816 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Oct 17 by wkj
Let me edit that post, as I didn't mean lacks plausibility at all - the exact opposite
Fair enough.
As I say it’s one of the most heavily monitored borders in the world (including in the private sector where assessment is apolitical). The following is a succinct summary of Hezbollahs recent border activity, but this goes back much further and can be seen in the many UNFIL reports:-
Since October 7, 2023, there have been over 4,400 rocket, missile, and other stand-off attacks by Israel and Hezbollah combined. Hezbollah has also repeatedly violated UN Security Council Resolution 1701 by deploying forces and firing anti-tank guided missiles and other stand-off weapons against Israel from the zone between the Blue Line and the Litani River, according to CSIS geolocation analysis.
In regards to violating the terms of their disarmament:-
I kind of thought a lot of this was widely known, but it is relevant to me. I get that people don’t trust the word of the Israeli government, but it seems odd to me they will believe statements from genocidal militants. Hezbollah aren’t a plucky resistance group, they’ve been active in killing thousands in Syria in support of Assad.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2024 14:45]
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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:54 - Oct 17 with 1722 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:42 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Fair enough.
As I say it’s one of the most heavily monitored borders in the world (including in the private sector where assessment is apolitical). The following is a succinct summary of Hezbollahs recent border activity, but this goes back much further and can be seen in the many UNFIL reports:-
Since October 7, 2023, there have been over 4,400 rocket, missile, and other stand-off attacks by Israel and Hezbollah combined. Hezbollah has also repeatedly violated UN Security Council Resolution 1701 by deploying forces and firing anti-tank guided missiles and other stand-off weapons against Israel from the zone between the Blue Line and the Litani River, according to CSIS geolocation analysis.
In regards to violating the terms of their disarmament:-
I kind of thought a lot of this was widely known, but it is relevant to me. I get that people don’t trust the word of the Israeli government, but it seems odd to me they will believe statements from genocidal militants. Hezbollah aren’t a plucky resistance group, they’ve been active in killing thousands in Syria in support of Assad.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2024 14:45]
My discomfort comes from the idea that it is okay to bypass UN/UNFIL because of a belief they are being ineffective. Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process and not a war or words, or military manoeuvres that leads to injuries of the peacekeepers in place.
I think there is a dangerous shift in geopolitical conduct - "It's okay to act in such a way, if we don't like the job that Agency X/ Country Y is doing".
And this is why I think that a really broad and far reaching objectivity is important, or else we get deeper into the weeds and even more lives are lost.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:54 - Oct 17 by wkj
My discomfort comes from the idea that it is okay to bypass UN/UNFIL because of a belief they are being ineffective. Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process and not a war or words, or military manoeuvres that leads to injuries of the peacekeepers in place.
I think there is a dangerous shift in geopolitical conduct - "It's okay to act in such a way, if we don't like the job that Agency X/ Country Y is doing".
And this is why I think that a really broad and far reaching objectivity is important, or else we get deeper into the weeds and even more lives are lost.
“ My discomfort comes from the idea that it is okay to bypass UN/UNFIL because of a belief they are being ineffective. Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process and not a war or words, or military manoeuvres that leads to injuries of the peacekeepers in place”
Okay, unless you are talking in a general sense I’ve certainly not suggested that. I think Israel’s intimidation of the UNFIL forces is the kind of appalling conduct expected from the Russians. I was however, being factual since you appeared to be casting doubt on what are fairly well observed Hezbollah violations of the ceasefire agreement.
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How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Oct 17 with 1675 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:54 - Oct 17 by wkj
My discomfort comes from the idea that it is okay to bypass UN/UNFIL because of a belief they are being ineffective. Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process and not a war or words, or military manoeuvres that leads to injuries of the peacekeepers in place.
I think there is a dangerous shift in geopolitical conduct - "It's okay to act in such a way, if we don't like the job that Agency X/ Country Y is doing".
And this is why I think that a really broad and far reaching objectivity is important, or else we get deeper into the weeds and even more lives are lost.
"Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process ..."
to me that comes across as a little one sided. where is the due process when unfil fails to inspect sites and enforce its mandate because of a desire to avoid conflict with hezbollah?
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:11 - Oct 17 with 1651 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:00 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
“ My discomfort comes from the idea that it is okay to bypass UN/UNFIL because of a belief they are being ineffective. Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process and not a war or words, or military manoeuvres that leads to injuries of the peacekeepers in place”
Okay, unless you are talking in a general sense I’ve certainly not suggested that. I think Israel’s intimidation of the UNFIL forces is the kind of appalling conduct expected from the Russians. I was however, being factual since you appeared to be casting doubt on what are fairly well observed Hezbollah violations of the ceasefire agreement.
Not at all, and I feel that may be what was read by others too. I don't like suggestions that it is okay to act in such a way based on not liking the job that the UN is doing (Justified or otherwise)
The reason I added the broader scope to the other poster's copy/paste was because the news article it came from said much more than the quote alone. The irony is, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with the poster, but think the full story was needed in light of other posts/questions in this thread. Particularly Bluejacko's
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? by bluejacko17 Oct 2024 11:15 As if anything it that region can be stable? With the political will the unlikely choice is there,there is risk at every turn for all parties involved.
Political will and trust being the key part of what that linked article was all about.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Oct 17 by lowhouseblue
"Granted, there seems like there is enough there to ask questions, but there has to be due process ..."
to me that comes across as a little one sided. where is the due process when unfil fails to inspect sites and enforce its mandate because of a desire to avoid conflict with hezbollah?
It's not up to me to enforce it. And I am not once saying "UN Good, Israel bad" - Though as SKM has stated, I am troubled by the events taking place around UNFIL and people being injured.
I can't break into someone's house because they are growing weed and the police aren't acting on tipoffs.
It is a crude comparison, but it is relevant to 'due process'
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:15 - Oct 17 by wkj
It's not up to me to enforce it. And I am not once saying "UN Good, Israel bad" - Though as SKM has stated, I am troubled by the events taking place around UNFIL and people being injured.
I can't break into someone's house because they are growing weed and the police aren't acting on tipoffs.
It is a crude comparison, but it is relevant to 'due process'
they're not growing weed they are firing a huge arsenal of rockets. it's also not an issue of tipoffs, it's the police being intimidated out of taking action. if unfil had enforced the un resolution israel being active in the un policed zone would be indefensible. but pointing to due process now when the un has ignored it to date is quite difficult.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:30 - Oct 17 with 1503 views
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 15:21 - Oct 17 by lowhouseblue
they're not growing weed they are firing a huge arsenal of rockets. it's also not an issue of tipoffs, it's the police being intimidated out of taking action. if unfil had enforced the un resolution israel being active in the un policed zone would be indefensible. but pointing to due process now when the un has ignored it to date is quite difficult.
As I stated, it was a crude comparison. Though, going in and injuring peacekeepers is not acceptable. You can almost guarantee that the people on the ground are not to blame, but the ones organising them in the area are. Issuing demands to the UN to withdraw sets a troubling precedence for the future too.
Despite the assertions made in this post, I would be uncomfortable with any country aligned with 'the west' behaving in ways that favoured intimidation when dealing with the UN.
I think you have your usernames mixed up, I very much have been a town fan and was one of the first to make a loud noise when Phil was banned from pressers (I think RKD still has the avatar, I made that)
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 14:42 - Oct 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Fair enough.
As I say it’s one of the most heavily monitored borders in the world (including in the private sector where assessment is apolitical). The following is a succinct summary of Hezbollahs recent border activity, but this goes back much further and can be seen in the many UNFIL reports:-
Since October 7, 2023, there have been over 4,400 rocket, missile, and other stand-off attacks by Israel and Hezbollah combined. Hezbollah has also repeatedly violated UN Security Council Resolution 1701 by deploying forces and firing anti-tank guided missiles and other stand-off weapons against Israel from the zone between the Blue Line and the Litani River, according to CSIS geolocation analysis.
In regards to violating the terms of their disarmament:-
I kind of thought a lot of this was widely known, but it is relevant to me. I get that people don’t trust the word of the Israeli government, but it seems odd to me they will believe statements from genocidal militants. Hezbollah aren’t a plucky resistance group, they’ve been active in killing thousands in Syria in support of Assad.
[Post edited 17 Oct 2024 14:45]
I also thought this was widely known. Hence when quoting UN resolution 1701 I didn't feel the need to then attach the whole resolution to my post.
But therein lies the problem. If people are going to wade into these issues and throw around words like "misinformation' and 'fabrication' when somebody actually quotes UN resolution 1701, then they should at least have some basic understanding of the situation that they are challenging people on.
And if they are demanding sources on every post then they should be consistent.
Personally, I think this place would be pretty boring if every posts had to come with a disclaimer to where the information comes from. Having read your posts on the middle east, I know that you have a good command of what you are talking about. I don't need you to reference everything. Especially stuff that is more widely known.
Full disclosure: I'm part-Jewish, lived in Israel and have Israeli family, some of whom have served in the IDF.
That said:
I can't find a position to take. I know that sounds ridiculous so no need to point it out, thanks.
Netanyahu's utterly vile and always has been, but I can understand the initial response to the October hostage-taking and slaughter at the festival. What I can't understand is the horrific, OTT nature of that response. It's nothing but a war crime.
If you speak to most Israelis, thay'll tell you about how Israel has been attacked almost constantly since the first day of independence in 1948 from all sides.
On the other hand, Palestinian Arabs will rightly refer to the fact that they were cruelly displaced and have been attacked and downtrodden by Israel since then.
The simple answer is that the constant tit-for-tatting and whataboutery of both sides has resulted in the unnecessary deaths of many thousands of people over several decades, few of whom asked to be involved and, frankly, would like to just get on with their lives without the influence of politically-motivated warmongers on both sides.
I adore the country of Israel. It's beautiful and full of decent people. But the STATE of Israel? It disgusts me.
What's needed is for good, peace-loving people on both sides of the conflict to stand up and say 'no more deaths' but, as long as politicians with a desperate need to cling to power remain in charge, Jews and Muslims are going to carry on dying needlessly.
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 19:48 - Oct 17 by FBI
Full disclosure: I'm part-Jewish, lived in Israel and have Israeli family, some of whom have served in the IDF.
That said:
I can't find a position to take. I know that sounds ridiculous so no need to point it out, thanks.
Netanyahu's utterly vile and always has been, but I can understand the initial response to the October hostage-taking and slaughter at the festival. What I can't understand is the horrific, OTT nature of that response. It's nothing but a war crime.
If you speak to most Israelis, thay'll tell you about how Israel has been attacked almost constantly since the first day of independence in 1948 from all sides.
On the other hand, Palestinian Arabs will rightly refer to the fact that they were cruelly displaced and have been attacked and downtrodden by Israel since then.
The simple answer is that the constant tit-for-tatting and whataboutery of both sides has resulted in the unnecessary deaths of many thousands of people over several decades, few of whom asked to be involved and, frankly, would like to just get on with their lives without the influence of politically-motivated warmongers on both sides.
I adore the country of Israel. It's beautiful and full of decent people. But the STATE of Israel? It disgusts me.
What's needed is for good, peace-loving people on both sides of the conflict to stand up and say 'no more deaths' but, as long as politicians with a desperate need to cling to power remain in charge, Jews and Muslims are going to carry on dying needlessly.
Good post, it really isn't that hard is it. Ceasefire and hostage release.....months ago.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
How many Lebanese lives is sufficient? on 19:48 - Oct 17 by FBI
Full disclosure: I'm part-Jewish, lived in Israel and have Israeli family, some of whom have served in the IDF.
That said:
I can't find a position to take. I know that sounds ridiculous so no need to point it out, thanks.
Netanyahu's utterly vile and always has been, but I can understand the initial response to the October hostage-taking and slaughter at the festival. What I can't understand is the horrific, OTT nature of that response. It's nothing but a war crime.
If you speak to most Israelis, thay'll tell you about how Israel has been attacked almost constantly since the first day of independence in 1948 from all sides.
On the other hand, Palestinian Arabs will rightly refer to the fact that they were cruelly displaced and have been attacked and downtrodden by Israel since then.
The simple answer is that the constant tit-for-tatting and whataboutery of both sides has resulted in the unnecessary deaths of many thousands of people over several decades, few of whom asked to be involved and, frankly, would like to just get on with their lives without the influence of politically-motivated warmongers on both sides.
I adore the country of Israel. It's beautiful and full of decent people. But the STATE of Israel? It disgusts me.
What's needed is for good, peace-loving people on both sides of the conflict to stand up and say 'no more deaths' but, as long as politicians with a desperate need to cling to power remain in charge, Jews and Muslims are going to carry on dying needlessly.
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