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It's just so wrong that Timpson can talk about much-needed reform of what we do with convicted criminals but, in the same breath, have to reassure people that he's still 'tough on crime'.
It feels so regressive that we still have a laser focus on punishment and punishment alone, rather than taking the opportunity to focus on why the offence occurred, and seeking to treat the cause rather than the symptom.
timpson seems to be shifting towards a better balance. but part of the function of sentencing is to reflect the public sense of fairness and that acts do have real consequences. reform is needed for all the reasons timpson lists, but the public perception of justice still has to be central or people will cease to have trust in it. he seems to be striking a good balance.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
1
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:02 - May 8 with 854 views
Same kind of trite slogan as "cutting taxes" or "getting the unemployed back into work". Aimed at a certain class of people on comfortable earnings and pensions who grew up in a stable, well funded society but have a mortal terror of having to spend money on stuff which benefits other people. A cohort which is the darling of most newspapers.
Also, often, substitute for meaningful and practical policy.
Edit: I am attacking the words, not the Minister, if he is genuinely looking at reform behind the rhetoric.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 08:06 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
timpson seems to be shifting towards a better balance. but part of the function of sentencing is to reflect the public sense of fairness and that acts do have real consequences. reform is needed for all the reasons timpson lists, but the public perception of justice still has to be central or people will cease to have trust in it. he seems to be striking a good balance.
While that is true, the public also need to learn the importance of rehabilitation over pure punishment, if they want to break cycles of reoffending (particularly where drugs are involved).
Or they have to shoulder the financial burden of a more draconian system, with many more and larger prisons. Can't have it both ways.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:07 - May 8 by Guthrum
While that is true, the public also need to learn the importance of rehabilitation over pure punishment, if they want to break cycles of reoffending (particularly where drugs are involved).
Or they have to shoulder the financial burden of a more draconian system, with many more and larger prisons. Can't have it both ways.
Some people think it's the job of government only to echo majority views rather than trying to inform public debate and shift the dial. The problem with that is the masses will then have their views shaped by wealthy mainstream and social media owners instead and you end up in a place where political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff.
I think the perception is that this is letting criminals get away with it. Rather than punishing them we use other methods to rehabilitate them. The gut feeling (including my own) is that it is soft and would encourage more crime.
I'm sure there are various studies and examples with factual evidence which proves the opposite though which it would be good to see. It would help a lot more people get on board with this type of thing.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:15 - May 8 by J2BLUE
I think the perception is that this is letting criminals get away with it. Rather than punishing them we use other methods to rehabilitate them. The gut feeling (including my own) is that it is soft and would encourage more crime.
I'm sure there are various studies and examples with factual evidence which proves the opposite though which it would be good to see. It would help a lot more people get on board with this type of thing.
A typical example is Norway, which has one of the lowest (if not the lowest) reoffending rates in the world.
Look at their prisons and their focus on rehabilitation vs punishment. compared to us.
I watched an interesting video on this the other day which you might like
I'll try and find some proper stats if you're interested. Anything to get me away from looking at consolidated tax certificates...
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:14 - May 8 by Herbivore
Some people think it's the job of government only to echo majority views rather than trying to inform public debate and shift the dial. The problem with that is the masses will then have their views shaped by wealthy mainstream and social media owners instead and you end up in a place where political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff.
And who doesn't think the job of government to echo majority views ? By my understanding, that's how democracy works.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:14 - May 8 by Herbivore
Some people think it's the job of government only to echo majority views rather than trying to inform public debate and shift the dial. The problem with that is the masses will then have their views shaped by wealthy mainstream and social media owners instead and you end up in a place where political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff.
and that does seem to be your view of the world summed up.
"People don't like complex, they like simple."
"the masses will then have their views shaped"
"political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff"
you, and of course those who share the same views, are the intellectual colossuses who understand the truth and complexity, while the public / electors/ the working class / anyone who disagrees with you are thick, easily led, manipulated by malign actors, can't deal with complexity, and are driven by base emotions such as hatred and racism.
what a way to frame the world. tssh, the online left today.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-1
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:31 - May 8 with 632 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 10:54 - May 8 by HairBearBunch
And who doesn't think the job of government to echo majority views ? By my understanding, that's how democracy works.
But it dosn't. Under the existing system, various parties come up with sets of ideas and the electorate gets to choose between those limited options.
Doing it any other way would be chaos in a mass-franchise state, where there are about 50 million different views on how things should be done. A bit different in ancient Athens when all the voters could gather in one place and talk things out.
It has always been the job, even then, of political leaders to crystallise and formulate a plan for how they think the nation should be governed, for the good of the people (or themselves and their friends). In times of crisis, leaders may have to make very unpopular decisions.
It also depends upon the level of social, economic and diplomatic education of the populace. They have to be adequately informed and trained in analysis if you want them to be initiating policy. Not to mention having the time to think in depth about things (instead of watching TV dramas and parroting what they see on Facebook). That has been greatly undermined by education policy in recent decades. I'd venture to say the public in general was more politically educated in 1900 than today, save in issues which did not exist then, such as climate.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:14 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
and that does seem to be your view of the world summed up.
"People don't like complex, they like simple."
"the masses will then have their views shaped"
"political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff"
you, and of course those who share the same views, are the intellectual colossuses who understand the truth and complexity, while the public / electors/ the working class / anyone who disagrees with you are thick, easily led, manipulated by malign actors, can't deal with complexity, and are driven by base emotions such as hatred and racism.
what a way to frame the world. tssh, the online left today.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:14 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
and that does seem to be your view of the world summed up.
"People don't like complex, they like simple."
"the masses will then have their views shaped"
"political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff"
you, and of course those who share the same views, are the intellectual colossuses who understand the truth and complexity, while the public / electors/ the working class / anyone who disagrees with you are thick, easily led, manipulated by malign actors, can't deal with complexity, and are driven by base emotions such as hatred and racism.
what a way to frame the world. tssh, the online left today.
Thing is, it desn't have to be like that. The basis of the 18th, 19th and early 20th century working class movements which led to political reform in the UK was education. Usually of the workers by themselves. By spreading information, they enabled ordinary people to form opinions, organise and act upon them.
A lot of that has been left behind. Government now has a monopoly on education policy and has decided that lots of good exam result statistics is more important than actually educating young people, giving them the analytical tools and background knowlege to make judgement on events. Adult education funding has been slashed. Humanities are constantly downgraded. All this at a time when there is an unregulated avalanche of information on the internet, far more than anyone can cope with.
About the only area where that is not true is climate change, where a lot of the effort, as of old, has been by grassroots operators eventually pushing their way into mainstream consciousness.
People are not stupid*, but they may be ill equipped, through no fault of their own.
* My father, a teacher, always maintained nobody was too stupid to learn. Nowadays, pupils who might not pass exams face being excluded, lest they spoil the stats.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:31 - May 8 by Guthrum
But it dosn't. Under the existing system, various parties come up with sets of ideas and the electorate gets to choose between those limited options.
Doing it any other way would be chaos in a mass-franchise state, where there are about 50 million different views on how things should be done. A bit different in ancient Athens when all the voters could gather in one place and talk things out.
It has always been the job, even then, of political leaders to crystallise and formulate a plan for how they think the nation should be governed, for the good of the people (or themselves and their friends). In times of crisis, leaders may have to make very unpopular decisions.
It also depends upon the level of social, economic and diplomatic education of the populace. They have to be adequately informed and trained in analysis if you want them to be initiating policy. Not to mention having the time to think in depth about things (instead of watching TV dramas and parroting what they see on Facebook). That has been greatly undermined by education policy in recent decades. I'd venture to say the public in general was more politically educated in 1900 than today, save in issues which did not exist then, such as climate.
Careful now, Lowie will sh!t themselves and when they read this. In their world, the working class are informed and robust enough to make up their own minds on complex political issues without being swayed by nefarious actors or the media, but they are simultaneously so thin skinned and reactive that their world views are entirely shaped by the reactions of THE LEFT. Lowie's working class is the Schrodinger's cat of politics.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:14 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
and that does seem to be your view of the world summed up.
"People don't like complex, they like simple."
"the masses will then have their views shaped"
"political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff"
you, and of course those who share the same views, are the intellectual colossuses who understand the truth and complexity, while the public / electors/ the working class / anyone who disagrees with you are thick, easily led, manipulated by malign actors, can't deal with complexity, and are driven by base emotions such as hatred and racism.
what a way to frame the world. tssh, the online left today.
So now all the working class disagree with Herbivore?
Nobody from a working class background could ever share his views on this subject? Why would that be?
Following on from your classic ' if you disagree with Reform your calling the working class racist' bu11sh1te from the other day.
The working class are lucky to have you as their protector and spokesman. Especially as the rest of your Labour party seem to have despised and feared them for some time.
1
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 12:36 - May 8 with 503 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 09:02 - May 8 by Guthrum
Same kind of trite slogan as "cutting taxes" or "getting the unemployed back into work". Aimed at a certain class of people on comfortable earnings and pensions who grew up in a stable, well funded society but have a mortal terror of having to spend money on stuff which benefits other people. A cohort which is the darling of most newspapers.
Also, often, substitute for meaningful and practical policy.
Edit: I am attacking the words, not the Minister, if he is genuinely looking at reform behind the rhetoric.
[Post edited 8 May 9:04]
That's what makes me feel so sad and angry about it all.
One of the people in the country with the most first-hand experience of rehabilitation and trying to prevent recidivism probably knows what he's talking about, and probably knows for sure that the current system is broken.
But, thanks to the unique way in which politics works, he still has to qualify his comments with the secret code-word for "I still believe in locking people up and throwing away the key".
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 12:28 - May 8 by leitrimblue
So now all the working class disagree with Herbivore?
Nobody from a working class background could ever share his views on this subject? Why would that be?
Following on from your classic ' if you disagree with Reform your calling the working class racist' bu11sh1te from the other day.
The working class are lucky to have you as their protector and spokesman. Especially as the rest of your Labour party seem to have despised and feared them for some time.
Look, the working class know their own minds and aren't easily swayed by propaganda. At the same time, the entire world view of the entire working class is entirely shaped by me and "my ilk". I know that sounds like contradictory bullsh!t, and it is, but it's just the way things are, according to the Gospel of Lowhouse. Of course, we can all make up our own minds on whether to trust the gospel of someone so wilfully dishonest and I think people should pass their own judgement there.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:14 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
and that does seem to be your view of the world summed up.
"People don't like complex, they like simple."
"the masses will then have their views shaped"
"political discourse is focused on the wrong stuff"
you, and of course those who share the same views, are the intellectual colossuses who understand the truth and complexity, while the public / electors/ the working class / anyone who disagrees with you are thick, easily led, manipulated by malign actors, can't deal with complexity, and are driven by base emotions such as hatred and racism.
what a way to frame the world. tssh, the online left today.
Would I have seen you on some kind of Youtube grift channel?
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 13:07 - May 8 by BlueBadger
Would I have seen you on some kind of Youtube grift channel?
What's really interesting is that they see 20% of C2DE voters voting for Reform in the last GE as evidence that all working class voters hate THE LEFT and support Reform policies on immigration, but in 2017 when 42% of C2DE voters voted for Corbyn's Labour, I seem to recall they were very vocally opposed to said party and didn't champion the views of the 42% of working class voters who clearly favoured policies like renationalisation and more progressive taxation to fund public services. It's almost like they don't really know anything about the working class, have no real interest in them, but like to weaponise them to attack THE LEFT. It's almost like their agenda has nothing to do with standing up for what working people want and is much more about sticking it to the libs.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 13:13 - May 8 by Herbivore
What's really interesting is that they see 20% of C2DE voters voting for Reform in the last GE as evidence that all working class voters hate THE LEFT and support Reform policies on immigration, but in 2017 when 42% of C2DE voters voted for Corbyn's Labour, I seem to recall they were very vocally opposed to said party and didn't champion the views of the 42% of working class voters who clearly favoured policies like renationalisation and more progressive taxation to fund public services. It's almost like they don't really know anything about the working class, have no real interest in them, but like to weaponise them to attack THE LEFT. It's almost like their agenda has nothing to do with standing up for what working people want and is much more about sticking it to the libs.
I genuinely don't get what's happened to Lowie, they've gone from a vaguely leftish centrist to a feeble apologist for all sorts of Very Real Concerns.
I presume the cold and wet weather in Stockholm is making them grumpy.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 12:44 - May 8 by Herbivore
Look, the working class know their own minds and aren't easily swayed by propaganda. At the same time, the entire world view of the entire working class is entirely shaped by me and "my ilk". I know that sounds like contradictory bullsh!t, and it is, but it's just the way things are, according to the Gospel of Lowhouse. Of course, we can all make up our own minds on whether to trust the gospel of someone so wilfully dishonest and I think people should pass their own judgement there.
I would suggest that many families in working class communities understand the complexities of crime and the prison system better then most.
In many cases its our family members and friends who have spent the last 20-30 years in and out of prisons.
Nearly always due to drug and alcohol addiction issues. We would watched them being locked up for a while then sent back to the same communities that have fostered their addiction.
No further goals or opportunities to break the cycle. Just a basic subutex/ methadone program then back into their old habits after a few weeks.
Its almost if the authorities don't care, cause its not their communities that are suffering..
1
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:36 - May 8 with 281 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 11:46 - May 8 by Herbivore
Careful now, Lowie will sh!t themselves and when they read this. In their world, the working class are informed and robust enough to make up their own minds on complex political issues without being swayed by nefarious actors or the media, but they are simultaneously so thin skinned and reactive that their world views are entirely shaped by the reactions of THE LEFT. Lowie's working class is the Schrodinger's cat of politics.
[Post edited 8 May 11:49]
i'm not sure you've understood. i think people like you systematically seek to delegitimise disagreement. it's intentional and cynical. you don't accept that people disagree because they have different priorities or different values or beliefs or different life experience. you always explain disagreement as you being right and everyone else being thick, unable to engage in complexity, being racist or hate-driven, being easily led, being manipulated by malign actors or just being bad people. on every topic you rely on some variant of the above. brexit voters = thick and racist. people who think immigration is too high = racist. people who support the use prison sentences = can't handle complexity. people who vote reform = thick, racist and manipulated. and on and on.
it's the dumbing down of politics and the elevation of intolerance to a virtue. it's all over social media but very sadly it has been led by people who claim to be on the left.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-2
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:42 - May 8 with 273 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 13:13 - May 8 by Herbivore
What's really interesting is that they see 20% of C2DE voters voting for Reform in the last GE as evidence that all working class voters hate THE LEFT and support Reform policies on immigration, but in 2017 when 42% of C2DE voters voted for Corbyn's Labour, I seem to recall they were very vocally opposed to said party and didn't champion the views of the 42% of working class voters who clearly favoured policies like renationalisation and more progressive taxation to fund public services. It's almost like they don't really know anything about the working class, have no real interest in them, but like to weaponise them to attack THE LEFT. It's almost like their agenda has nothing to do with standing up for what working people want and is much more about sticking it to the libs.
again i don't think you've understood. what i posted was that 2/3rds of reform voters at the 2024 election were from c2de. that's a higher proportion than for any other party. but only 14% of voters voted for reform so how do you think that could that be "all working class voters"? since the election polls show reform's support has doubled. the key stat of course is that 70% of the entire electorate oppose the current level of immigration.
but, if it helps, i'll compromise. it's not the working class you have contempt for - you don't discriminate in that way, you have contempt for everyone who doesn't share your views.
[Post edited 8 May 14:51]
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-2
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:43 - May 8 with 270 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 13:22 - May 8 by BlueBadger
I genuinely don't get what's happened to Lowie, they've gone from a vaguely leftish centrist to a feeble apologist for all sorts of Very Real Concerns.
I presume the cold and wet weather in Stockholm is making them grumpy.
it's very sweet that you're trying to join in.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
0
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:56 - May 8 with 237 views
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:36 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
i'm not sure you've understood. i think people like you systematically seek to delegitimise disagreement. it's intentional and cynical. you don't accept that people disagree because they have different priorities or different values or beliefs or different life experience. you always explain disagreement as you being right and everyone else being thick, unable to engage in complexity, being racist or hate-driven, being easily led, being manipulated by malign actors or just being bad people. on every topic you rely on some variant of the above. brexit voters = thick and racist. people who think immigration is too high = racist. people who support the use prison sentences = can't handle complexity. people who vote reform = thick, racist and manipulated. and on and on.
it's the dumbing down of politics and the elevation of intolerance to a virtue. it's all over social media but very sadly it has been led by people who claim to be on the left.
We need to drastically change our way of thinking on crime & sentencing on 14:42 - May 8 by lowhouseblue
again i don't think you've understood. what i posted was that 2/3rds of reform voters at the 2024 election were from c2de. that's a higher proportion than for any other party. but only 14% of voters voted for reform so how do you think that could that be "all working class voters"? since the election polls show reform's support has doubled. the key stat of course is that 70% of the entire electorate oppose the current level of immigration.
but, if it helps, i'll compromise. it's not the working class you have contempt for - you don't discriminate in that way, you have contempt for everyone who doesn't share your views.
[Post edited 8 May 14:51]
I have contempt for those who are dishonest and disingenuous, which is why you might be getting contemptuous vibes from me.
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