| Debt collection services.... 09:50 - Nov 4 with 2753 views | itfcjoe |
....anyone got any experiences in this and happy to share/help - DMs are open.
Long and short of it is, we gave someone budget figures for some work at their house clearly stated as a Phase 1 from a rough sketch, they then had us finish the works to a further point [phase 2 for ease], whilst also increasing the scope of works numerous times in the phases directly on site. Supplying structural and electrical drawings directly to operatives when on tight deadlines and not asking for a re price.
All obvious 'extra work' type things - re skim ceilings and walls, supply and fit bespoke double doors not previously mentioned, move MCB and build bespoke cupboards with doors supplied by them to do so, do extra electrical works in a barn, supply a skip to other area of site where they were having construction done etc. And these are customers who have had masses of work done and live in a house with associated barns etc and aren't wet behind the ears—they’ve been around the block and understand what things cost.
We've billed them and the bloke has come back and said that the original budget figure should stand for all the works, despite clearly saying it wasn't, and he won't pay any more than that. Originally they had said there were a few extra works but now is obstinately ignoring everything, and when I look at him online he has history with the SRA re what looks like a fraud where he was struck off.
So need to consider best options - just the slow legal process with a solicitor, or straight to a debt collection service. Or will a debt collection not be valid because it is technically disputed debt?
Any advice gratefully received; as feel like we've been set up here |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 13:08 - Nov 4 with 541 views | wkj |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:18 - Nov 4 by DJR |
That's very harsh on Joe, and far too lenient on the customer.
And I came across this on a legal website.
"In circumstances where you instruct the builder to carry out additional works, we suggest you carefully document these in writing, as well as the price for any additional works once agreed. In the absence of an agreement over the price, your builders will be entitled to be paid a reasonable price for their services, which may come down to fact." [Post edited 4 Nov 12:23]
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It is with objectivity, not emotion or bias. They guy is looking for legal advice, and i reply with why i think it could struggle. |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 13:11 - Nov 4 with 534 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:33 - Nov 4 by DJR |
It seems to me that the contrast between the works completed and those set out in the original quote will also come into play.
But for future reference, payments on account may not be a bad idea.
We had building work done a couple of years ago and got fairly regular interim bills from the builder. [Post edited 4 Nov 12:36]
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Without going into figures, we had a couple of interim payments against the job, so have had something; but it was only when next invoice (which came after we said we were starting Phase 2) went in that, went above the Phase 1 estimate, has he refused to pay.
Worst thing is, it is obvious we have been set up on this one, and it was a recommendation from a long standing client so no doubt she'll feel awful about it too - but it's bloody tough out here at the moment and the worst of people comes out at this time | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 13:14 - Nov 4 with 516 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:53 - Nov 4 by farkenhell |
Quite simply because the customer asked for more work to be carried out over and above the initial estimate.
"...they then had us finish the works to a further point [phase 2 for ease], whilst also increasing the scope of works numerous times in the phases directly on site."
You can't ask someone to do more work in these circumstances and not expect to pay for it. |
There are, in particular, a couple of areas of work that are so far outside the scope, and not even to do with the project in totally different parts of the property that I'm hoping their obstinance and outright front on will spell out just how clear it is they are in the wrong and trying it on.
Whatever the outcome, even if we get what we are owed, it will still have cost us a lot to lose money on a job because of total dishonesty | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 13:19 - Nov 4 with 499 views | DJR |
| Debt collection services.... on 13:11 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
Without going into figures, we had a couple of interim payments against the job, so have had something; but it was only when next invoice (which came after we said we were starting Phase 2) went in that, went above the Phase 1 estimate, has he refused to pay.
Worst thing is, it is obvious we have been set up on this one, and it was a recommendation from a long standing client so no doubt she'll feel awful about it too - but it's bloody tough out here at the moment and the worst of people comes out at this time |
I'm really sorry to hear that Joe.
I must admit it would make me tempted to get the "heavies" round but I suppose you can't do that sort of things these days.
But I would be inclined to get legal advice. If nothing else, they should point you in the right direction, and they might not necessarily have to do it all.
EDIT: this firm in Colchester might be worth contacting.
https://archor.co.uk/archor-the-leading-construction-lawyers-in-east-anglia/
[Post edited 4 Nov 13:23]
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| Debt collection services.... on 13:20 - Nov 4 with 497 views | Big_Jase |
| Debt collection services.... on 13:07 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
I doubt there has been a completed building project of any size that hasn't had things fall out of scope; it's just the way things work - especially when client is requesting things clearly outside the scope of defined works and when we've effectively had to price the job of the back of a fag packet |
Do you have a main contract with your client or is it done just on a quotation basis?
I work on NEC3 & 4 contracts and it’s pretty clear, you (The Contractor) shouldn’t do any additional works without an formal instruction from your client (Project Manager), without this instruction the contractor is carrying out work at risk. This would be a compensation event and any defined costs would be payable plus your agreed contract fee for overheads etc.
If you have no evidence additonal works have been instructed then this could be an issue, as how can you prove they have asked you to do these works? If you do take them to small claims. |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 14:33 - Nov 4 with 437 views | Basuco |
A Plummer mate of mine had a customer who refused to pay for a complete pluming and heating installation job in a large house a few years ago, he put a charge on the property for the debt, I don't know the full story but this caused a huge amount of pain for the other guy as he could not ever sell the property until the charge was settled and also not get any credit due to the charge being an outstanding debt.
Not sure if this is an option open to you but it had a big impact and the customer paid up pretty quickly. All offers of a settlement were turned down until the bill was paid in full. |  | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 14:42 - Nov 4 with 416 views | mellowblue |
| Debt collection services.... on 10:01 - Nov 4 by artsbossbeard |
Just for the satisfaction, could you simply go in and take back the bespoke double doors & cupboards anyways?
I hate doing this, as it causes aggravation galore, but every new customer we deal with now has to pass quite a strict vetting process our end & we'll always request a big old lump sum up front on initial trading. |
Once the doors form part of the customer property, you can't as far as I know. |  | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 14:48 - Nov 4 with 408 views | mellowblue |
| Debt collection services.... on 12:33 - Nov 4 by SuperBobbyPetta |
Small claims court sounds like your best route from what you’ve said. It’s relatively straightforward and inexpensive and if he doesn’t ‘defend’ the claim then he’ll face a CCJ to make the award. |
there is a good chance the customer would settle before it comes to county court anyway, rather than face the hassle of defending or having a CCJ on their record. In my experience. | | | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 14:59 - Nov 4 with 376 views | Radlett_blue |
| Debt collection services.... on 13:14 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
There are, in particular, a couple of areas of work that are so far outside the scope, and not even to do with the project in totally different parts of the property that I'm hoping their obstinance and outright front on will spell out just how clear it is they are in the wrong and trying it on.
Whatever the outcome, even if we get what we are owed, it will still have cost us a lot to lose money on a job because of total dishonesty |
Is your work complete? If not, you can refuse to carry on unless your client plays ball. |  |
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| Debt collection services.... on 15:46 - Nov 4 with 322 views | itfcjoe |
| Debt collection services.... on 14:59 - Nov 4 by Radlett_blue |
Is your work complete? If not, you can refuse to carry on unless your client plays ball. |
That is where we are, I presume they've employed someone else to finish it as was minor works remaining though but not certain of this | |
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| Debt collection services.... on 15:58 - Nov 4 with 298 views | farkenhell |
| Debt collection services.... on 13:19 - Nov 4 by DJR |
I'm really sorry to hear that Joe.
I must admit it would make me tempted to get the "heavies" round but I suppose you can't do that sort of things these days.
But I would be inclined to get legal advice. If nothing else, they should point you in the right direction, and they might not necessarily have to do it all.
EDIT: this firm in Colchester might be worth contacting.
https://archor.co.uk/archor-the-leading-construction-lawyers-in-east-anglia/
[Post edited 4 Nov 13:23]
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That was my first thought. Problem is, Joe could find himself in a heap of trouble. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 15:59 - Nov 4 with 298 views | badadski |
| Debt collection services.... on 15:46 - Nov 4 by itfcjoe |
That is where we are, I presume they've employed someone else to finish it as was minor works remaining though but not certain of this |
Was there any extra indication given to the customer about increased costs due to the extra work out of scope ? If their is no record, no contract or agreement brought up between both parties I don’t see how legally you’d be able to claim extra beyond the initial written quote regardless of how much extra you done in the interim. Debt collection would only be able to chase actual proven debt once the legal channels had been exasperated id have thought. I’m not a solicitor so don’t take this as a given but have had numerous dealings with other legal disputes and know that unless something can be proven then you have no leg to stand on. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:14 - Nov 4 with 266 views | farkenhell |
| Debt collection services.... on 15:59 - Nov 4 by badadski |
Was there any extra indication given to the customer about increased costs due to the extra work out of scope ? If their is no record, no contract or agreement brought up between both parties I don’t see how legally you’d be able to claim extra beyond the initial written quote regardless of how much extra you done in the interim. Debt collection would only be able to chase actual proven debt once the legal channels had been exasperated id have thought. I’m not a solicitor so don’t take this as a given but have had numerous dealings with other legal disputes and know that unless something can be proven then you have no leg to stand on. |
I've assumed this line in Joe's OP means that the customer asked for additional work, which Joe then carried out at his request:
"...they then had us finish the works to a further point..., whilst also increasing the scope of works numerous times in the phases directly on site."
That is a perfectly valid legal contract (or agreement by another name) between the parties. It matters not that the agreement was not evidenced in writing and based on verbal conversations. It also isn't fatal that there was no agreed price, or even that Joe didn't give the customer a price. In those circumstances, Joe would be entitled to charge a reasonable price.
It goes without saying that Joe would need to prove his case in order to succeed. That decision would be made by a judge on a "balance of probabilities", ie who the judge believes more - Joe or the customer.
Joe - I think the best thing you should do in this case is seek some initial advice from a solicitor who practises disputed contracts, and preferably building contracts. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:15 - Nov 4 with 265 views | WinchBlue |
Depends on how much it is and how confident that you are that you have the evidence to support the additional costs.
I used the government online process to take a developer to court who had knocked over my garden wall and didn't want to do anything about it:
https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility/known-claim-amount
Its a bit of a drawn out process but it saves on solicitor fees.
In my case the developer coughed up for the cost of a replacement wall + initial legal fees the day before the case was due to be passed to the courts. |  | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:26 - Nov 4 with 222 views | farkenhell |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:15 - Nov 4 by WinchBlue |
Depends on how much it is and how confident that you are that you have the evidence to support the additional costs.
I used the government online process to take a developer to court who had knocked over my garden wall and didn't want to do anything about it:
https://www.moneyclaims.service.gov.uk/eligibility/known-claim-amount
Its a bit of a drawn out process but it saves on solicitor fees.
In my case the developer coughed up for the cost of a replacement wall + initial legal fees the day before the case was due to be passed to the courts. |
That's just an online service to commence court proceedings. Which is fine if the amount claimed is not in dispute (ie - undisputed debt collection) or is £5K or less.
Problem is, if the claim is defended and is above £5K (which appears to be in Joe's case), then there is a costs risk regardless of whether or not Joe instructs his own solicitor. In other words, if the customer instructs a solicitor and/or a barrister and successfully defends the claim against him, then Joe could find himself liable to pay the customer's legal fees.
The best thing Joe could do at the moment is take some initial advice from a solicitor. Spending a few hundred pounds initially might well save him thousands in the long run. | | | |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:57 - Nov 4 with 178 views | WinchBlue |
| Debt collection services.... on 16:26 - Nov 4 by farkenhell |
That's just an online service to commence court proceedings. Which is fine if the amount claimed is not in dispute (ie - undisputed debt collection) or is £5K or less.
Problem is, if the claim is defended and is above £5K (which appears to be in Joe's case), then there is a costs risk regardless of whether or not Joe instructs his own solicitor. In other words, if the customer instructs a solicitor and/or a barrister and successfully defends the claim against him, then Joe could find himself liable to pay the customer's legal fees.
The best thing Joe could do at the moment is take some initial advice from a solicitor. Spending a few hundred pounds initially might well save him thousands in the long run. |
I have no idea what the amount is. It may well be around £5k besides which small claims in England can be up to £10k. And I did mention that it depends on how confident Joe is of being able to defend the additional costs.
The solicitors I have dealt with in the past have been leeches and out for themselves and not the client. I don't ever want to deal with a solicitor again.
This process puts Joes claim and the clients counterclaim in front of a magistrate who then makes a decision (or at least that was the process when I did it).
And crikey, if the client is likely to hire a barrister, then he will have good evidence that Joes claim is doubtful. A reputable barrister will not take on a case they are unlikely to win and they cost a fortune.
[Post edited 4 Nov 17:58]
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