| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela 18:46 - Jan 7 with 3473 views | Guthrum |
Worth bearing in mind that was pretty similar to how we in the UK behaved when we were a great imperial power. Gunboat Diplomacy, it was called in the days of Palmerston. Worth reading up on the Anglo-Zanzibar War ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Zanzibar_War ).
That is the kind of world we're living in now. Only this time we aren't one of the Great Powers. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:23 - Jan 7 with 866 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:02 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
My guess is his next strikes will be against Mexican drugs cartels. Not against the Mexican government but the gangsters. |
It's still a violation of sovereignty.
Why are you seemingly giving Trump a free pass? It's a theme on multiple threads.
It doesn't tally with the values you promote in other threads in my mind.
SB |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:25 - Jan 7 with 848 views | GlasgowBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:23 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
It's still a violation of sovereignty.
Why are you seemingly giving Trump a free pass? It's a theme on multiple threads.
It doesn't tally with the values you promote in other threads in my mind.
SB |
I think you need to read what is posted rather than what the voices in your head are telling you to read.
I said that is what I think he will do next. I didn't say I supported it. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:27 - Jan 7 with 829 views | lowhouseblue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:23 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
It's still a violation of sovereignty.
Why are you seemingly giving Trump a free pass? It's a theme on multiple threads.
It doesn't tally with the values you promote in other threads in my mind.
SB |
i guess when one line on things is pushed relentlessly it's healthy to take a step back, allow for variations on black and white, and try to see a bigger picture. it's not giving anyone a free pass, it's acknowledging that there's more complexity than allowed for in the dominant line on here. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:36 - Jan 7 with 793 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:23 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
It's still a violation of sovereignty.
Why are you seemingly giving Trump a free pass? It's a theme on multiple threads.
It doesn't tally with the values you promote in other threads in my mind.
SB |
Nah, I'm happy with my post and conclusion. You post implied it was fine to violate the territory of another country as long as you weren't against the government.
Clearly that is rubbish.
And let's not pretend it's your first defence of Trump, myself and others pulled you up a few days ago and you decided not to reply. Look at yourself and your views before pointing fingers at other posters.
Not sure what's happened to you. About a week ago you were calling posters with legimate concerns the "morality police" and then today you went full board police telling people where they could post stuff.
What happened to the old GB?
SB | | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:49 - Jan 7 with 754 views | GlasgowBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:36 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
Nah, I'm happy with my post and conclusion. You post implied it was fine to violate the territory of another country as long as you weren't against the government.
Clearly that is rubbish.
And let's not pretend it's your first defence of Trump, myself and others pulled you up a few days ago and you decided not to reply. Look at yourself and your views before pointing fingers at other posters.
Not sure what's happened to you. About a week ago you were calling posters with legimate concerns the "morality police" and then today you went full board police telling people where they could post stuff.
What happened to the old GB?
SB |
Where did I say that "it was fine to violate the territory of another country as long as you weren't against the government"? It isn't.
I didn't defend Trump over his aggressive rhetoric regarding Greenland. In fact I clearly stated that "He shouldn't be allowed to take Greenland by force". What I did say understood why Greenland is seen as strategically to the USA and has been since the late 1800's.
And I did reply to your post "pulling me up".
Venezuela under attack (n/t) by GlasgowBlue 5 Jan 8:10Just to reiterate, I’m not supporting Trump in any way with his aggressive rhetoric with regards to Greenland. And I don’t doubt that he would live to rape Greenland of its resources.
But take Trump out of the equation, the US has long seen Greenland as a strategic weak spot in its security. As early as 1867 the U.S. first seriously considered buying Greenland from Denmark because of its strategic importance. And again in 1946 as the Cold War started. And whilst it’s true that the US does have military bases there, if Greenland pushes for full independence, which of course it has every right to do so, then China will aggressively pump billions into having a presence on America’s doorstep.
This is well worth a read. And yes I accept it’s a US state sponsored media outlet. But it sets out Greenland’s strategic importance to the USA, China and Russia.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-china-arctic-greenland-trump/33273910.html
Regarding your statement “ There is no threat to the US from anyone”; can we list geopolitics and international defence to your area of expertise? Because if so that is an incredibly naive statement.
And for your last sentence; understanding Greenland’s importance to America’s security does not mean support for Trump’s ambitions or aggressive rhetoric.
You didn't like the answer. Then again you constantly think you are morally and intellectually superior to everybody who disagrees with you. Then usually throw a strop. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:58 - Jan 7 with 731 views | reusersfreekicks |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:27 - Jan 7 by lowhouseblue |
i guess when one line on things is pushed relentlessly it's healthy to take a step back, allow for variations on black and white, and try to see a bigger picture. it's not giving anyone a free pass, it's acknowledging that there's more complexity than allowed for in the dominant line on here. |
So rationalise Trump's illegal actions in other words
Same as his getting elected |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:06 - Jan 7 with 718 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:49 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Where did I say that "it was fine to violate the territory of another country as long as you weren't against the government"? It isn't.
I didn't defend Trump over his aggressive rhetoric regarding Greenland. In fact I clearly stated that "He shouldn't be allowed to take Greenland by force". What I did say understood why Greenland is seen as strategically to the USA and has been since the late 1800's.
And I did reply to your post "pulling me up".
Venezuela under attack (n/t) by GlasgowBlue 5 Jan 8:10Just to reiterate, I’m not supporting Trump in any way with his aggressive rhetoric with regards to Greenland. And I don’t doubt that he would live to rape Greenland of its resources.
But take Trump out of the equation, the US has long seen Greenland as a strategic weak spot in its security. As early as 1867 the U.S. first seriously considered buying Greenland from Denmark because of its strategic importance. And again in 1946 as the Cold War started. And whilst it’s true that the US does have military bases there, if Greenland pushes for full independence, which of course it has every right to do so, then China will aggressively pump billions into having a presence on America’s doorstep.
This is well worth a read. And yes I accept it’s a US state sponsored media outlet. But it sets out Greenland’s strategic importance to the USA, China and Russia.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-china-arctic-greenland-trump/33273910.html
Regarding your statement “ There is no threat to the US from anyone”; can we list geopolitics and international defence to your area of expertise? Because if so that is an incredibly naive statement.
And for your last sentence; understanding Greenland’s importance to America’s security does not mean support for Trump’s ambitions or aggressive rhetoric.
You didn't like the answer. Then again you constantly think you are morally and intellectually superior to everybody who disagrees with you. Then usually throw a strop. |
I replied to that post and you didn't respond.
"You didn't like the answer. I replied and asked for you to respond. Then again you constantly think you are morally and intellectually superior to everybody who disagrees with you. Then usually throw a strop."
An incredibly answer given you're the worst offender for those things on this forum. Only a few day ago you labelled people the "morality police", it was pathetic.
What happened to you? This forum was better without the weirdo nationalistic you. The increase in arguments is correlated to your return and pretty sure I've you've been sanctioned by admin on your return, you've certainly had posts deleted.
Sad times. Old GB is fine, new GB is the problem with lots of issues on the forum.
I await your character assassination but perhaps have a glass of whisky and reflect on what I've said.
SB | | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:06 - Jan 7 with 700 views | lowhouseblue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:58 - Jan 7 by reusersfreekicks |
So rationalise Trump's illegal actions in other words
Same as his getting elected |
not looking to rationalise trump's actions. if you want a bit of nuance however i would point to (i) the us has never respected sovereignty in south american - something true under presidents of both colours. presenting trump as something new or as breaking with a non-interventionist tradition is a bit disingenuous. (ii) as foreign interventions by the us go this one has so far been more transparent and less costly in terms of lives lost. (iii) in terms of foreign interference in a sovereign country, most of the troops killed were cuban, suggesting that the us interference there wasn't the first. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:14 - Jan 7 with 699 views | GlasgowBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:06 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
I replied to that post and you didn't respond.
"You didn't like the answer. I replied and asked for you to respond. Then again you constantly think you are morally and intellectually superior to everybody who disagrees with you. Then usually throw a strop."
An incredibly answer given you're the worst offender for those things on this forum. Only a few day ago you labelled people the "morality police", it was pathetic.
What happened to you? This forum was better without the weirdo nationalistic you. The increase in arguments is correlated to your return and pretty sure I've you've been sanctioned by admin on your return, you've certainly had posts deleted.
Sad times. Old GB is fine, new GB is the problem with lots of issues on the forum.
I await your character assassination but perhaps have a glass of whisky and reflect on what I've said.
SB |
Ah. I see you’re waving the imaginary red card and creating a false narrative now. Sorry to inform you but I won’t be the latest on your hit list.
I’ll bid you goodnight. [Post edited 7 Jan 23:18]
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:21 - Jan 7 with 674 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:14 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Ah. I see you’re waving the imaginary red card and creating a false narrative now. Sorry to inform you but I won’t be the latest on your hit list.
I’ll bid you goodnight. [Post edited 7 Jan 23:18]
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That's pathetic. Where have I asked for a red card? You attacked me, not the other way round.
You're embarrassing yourself now, it's a shame but it's also pathetic. My teensgers wouldn't struggle in a debate with what you've become.
A real shame how you're ruining your legacy.
SB | | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:33 - Jan 7 with 663 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:14 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Ah. I see you’re waving the imaginary red card and creating a false narrative now. Sorry to inform you but I won’t be the latest on your hit list.
I’ll bid you goodnight. [Post edited 7 Jan 23:18]
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It's really sad this is where we are.
SB [Post edited 8 Jan 11:26]
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 00:43 - Jan 8 with 594 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:03 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
Come on Guthers, you're better than this false equivalence.
If we lived in 1850 you might have a point, the world has moved on. It's absolutely wrong to try and excuse Trump's behaviour using an aged historical context.
Deep down you must know that.
SB |
It was less excusing and more pointing out a genuine equivalence between how the British - and other - empires went about things and the frames of reference that powerful people and their senior advisors are thinking within.
There are lessons for us in what we can expect going forwards. Diplomatic norms of the last seven or eight decades (certainly post-1989) are being torn up. Back to the era of Bismarck, Palmerston and Joseph Chamberlain*, where innate superiority, economic and military might justify pretty much everything.
There are lessons to learn from this, of what we can expect going forwards and what we are going to need to defend our societies against. Unless we wish to end up subjugated or mere squeaking imitators allowed a few scraps under the table.
* Colonial Secretary 1895-1903, who once said: "I believe that the British race is the greatest of the governing races that the world has ever seen... It is not enough to occupy great spaces of the world's surface unless you can make the best of them. It is the duty of a landlord to develop his estate." Different wording, but a similar principle to Trump deciding they can run Venezuela. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 08:59 - Jan 8 with 504 views | WeWereZombies |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 00:43 - Jan 8 by Guthrum |
It was less excusing and more pointing out a genuine equivalence between how the British - and other - empires went about things and the frames of reference that powerful people and their senior advisors are thinking within.
There are lessons for us in what we can expect going forwards. Diplomatic norms of the last seven or eight decades (certainly post-1989) are being torn up. Back to the era of Bismarck, Palmerston and Joseph Chamberlain*, where innate superiority, economic and military might justify pretty much everything.
There are lessons to learn from this, of what we can expect going forwards and what we are going to need to defend our societies against. Unless we wish to end up subjugated or mere squeaking imitators allowed a few scraps under the table.
* Colonial Secretary 1895-1903, who once said: "I believe that the British race is the greatest of the governing races that the world has ever seen... It is not enough to occupy great spaces of the world's surface unless you can make the best of them. It is the duty of a landlord to develop his estate." Different wording, but a similar principle to Trump deciding they can run Venezuela. |
Hilarious Guthers, you don't understand what is going on at all.
The United States is not going to 'run' Venezuela, they are going to dangle some cash above those who they think can give them access to resources and damn the rest of that nation (as it descends into rivalry between Army factions, cocaine cartels and that most lucrative of modern trading gang business - people trafficking.)
Europe was wracked by two World Wars in quick succession a century ago but the presence of nuclear weapons make scenarios different now, although an area with only one nuclear power, the Americas, could present a venue for a 'safer' World War. Whilst all this is frightening there are economic and demographic changes going on elsewhere, the rise of India is one example, that may pull attention away from the proxy power games of the United States and Russia. |  |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 09:13 - Jan 8 with 479 views | soupytwist |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 21:02 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
My guess is his next strikes will be against Mexican drugs cartels. Not against the Mexican government but the gangsters. |
If he does that, against a fellow host country of the next World Cup, Gianni Infantino might start to think that giving Trump the inaugural FIFA peace award wasn't such a good idea after all. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 10:17 - Jan 8 with 407 views | iamatractorboy |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 09:13 - Jan 8 by soupytwist |
If he does that, against a fellow host country of the next World Cup, Gianni Infantino might start to think that giving Trump the inaugural FIFA peace award wasn't such a good idea after all. |
It's amazing what money can do to people's logic though. |  | | |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 10:24 - Jan 8 with 395 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 08:59 - Jan 8 by WeWereZombies |
Hilarious Guthers, you don't understand what is going on at all.
The United States is not going to 'run' Venezuela, they are going to dangle some cash above those who they think can give them access to resources and damn the rest of that nation (as it descends into rivalry between Army factions, cocaine cartels and that most lucrative of modern trading gang business - people trafficking.)
Europe was wracked by two World Wars in quick succession a century ago but the presence of nuclear weapons make scenarios different now, although an area with only one nuclear power, the Americas, could present a venue for a 'safer' World War. Whilst all this is frightening there are economic and demographic changes going on elsewhere, the rise of India is one example, that may pull attention away from the proxy power games of the United States and Russia. |
Which is pretty much what Britain did in large areas during the second phase of the Empire. Decapitate or defeat the local regime. Promote someone more compliant and leave them to run the place, backed by British power and the threat of the same happening again if they stepped out of line.
Most of India was governed indirectly, through the numerous Princes, South Africa was handed back to the Boers within a few years of their defeat, Zululand had a family member of Cetshweyo put on the throne, even the settler-states in Australia and Canada were turned into self-governing Dominions.
It's the lesson we learnt from America, that it is cheaper and more efficient to retain or introduce a local layer of governance between the colony and the controlling power. With little interference so long as they paid their dues and left foreign policy alone. A lesson somewhat reinforced more recently by the Iraq experience, where trying to dismantle the entire Ba'athist structure led to chaos and disaster.
The problem using India as a counterweight now the USA has joined the Russo-Chinese "spheres of influence" game is that, while it may have the largest population (just), it lags well behind two of those economically and all three militarily - especially in power projection. They are also run by a fiercely nationalist regime (which is not really that fond of us). | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 10:44 - Jan 8 with 369 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 20:19 - Jan 7 by bsw72 |
Not really that similar, while true that the Anglo-Zanzibar War was very much 19th-century imperial “gunboat diplomacy”, it was carried out in a world where empire and enforced succession were the accepted norm. There was no international legal framework constraining Britain’s actions, and the objective was narrow, immediate and very much colonial in nature.
What we’re seeing now is fundamentally different. Modern interventions take place in a post 1945 world, supposedly built to prevent that behaviour, with sovereignty, international law and multilateral institutions as core pillars designed to protect others. When a power such as the USA acts unilaterally today, it should not be accepted that it is “how the world works” in the Palmerstonian sense, it’s a breach of the rules that the world, including the USA, agreed to after two catastrophic wars in 30 years.
So the issue isn’t that we’ve returned to a familiar imperial order and Britain has slipped down the pecking order. It’s that actions which were once routine for empires are now destabilising precisely because they undermine the system designed to stop great powers behaving that way at all.
It’s also a continuation/escalation of a modern U.S. pattern of leader-removal interventions both direct and indirect, whose legitimacy has always been contested and whose long-term consequences tend to outlast the short-term success. Vietnam, Panama, Haiti, Libya, Chile, Iraq etc the list goes on . . . |
The issue being that the only thing supporting those pillars of international law was the involvement of the strongest nations in upholding them (at least when it suited them). Now we have entered a time where the consensus is running the other way, driven by people ignoring the lessons of history in favour of an imperialist apporach.
The UN is toothless in the face of Security Council vetos. Who is going to enforce international law? Trump does not believe in it, any more than Putin or Xi*. The breakdown of the USA is a major disaster for the world.
* To be fair, Xi is more careful than the other two. But equally determined in pursuing their "rights" and interests. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 10:53 - Jan 8 with 359 views | Guthrum |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 22:23 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
It's still a violation of sovereignty.
Why are you seemingly giving Trump a free pass? It's a theme on multiple threads.
It doesn't tally with the values you promote in other threads in my mind.
SB |
I'm not giving Trump a free pass.
This upending of the relatively stable and diplomatic world order we have enjoyed in our lifetimes is a major disaster. There will be more victims of a return to an era of might makes right. They're not even propelled by an evangelical desire to develop and civilize the world (according to their lights), this time it's nakedly about political domination and economic exploitation. | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 11:22 - Jan 8 with 328 views | GlasgowBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 23:33 - Jan 7 by StokieBlue |
It's really sad this is where we are.
SB [Post edited 8 Jan 11:26]
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Hmmmm.
"Using genetics as an insult involves drawing on a history of scientifically debunked and harmful ideologies, such as eugenics and scientific racism, to stigmatize individuals or groups based on perceived biological inferiority. Such language is widely condemned by the scientific community". | |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 11:25 - Jan 8 with 329 views | StokieBlue |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 11:22 - Jan 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Hmmmm.
"Using genetics as an insult involves drawing on a history of scientifically debunked and harmful ideologies, such as eugenics and scientific racism, to stigmatize individuals or groups based on perceived biological inferiority. Such language is widely condemned by the scientific community". |
Apologies.
I shouldn't have used that and have edited accordingly.
SB | | | |
| It’s one of the strangest…. on 11:31 - Jan 8 with 303 views | Bloots |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 11:22 - Jan 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Hmmmm.
"Using genetics as an insult involves drawing on a history of scientifically debunked and harmful ideologies, such as eugenics and scientific racism, to stigmatize individuals or groups based on perceived biological inferiority. Such language is widely condemned by the scientific community". |
….attempted insults I’ve seen on here!
Is he saying that you originate from a long line of historical Muppets? The offspring of Kermit and Miss Piggy?
I always thought that Janice the guitar player was pretty hot to be honest.
Anyway, I assume he was just hammered last night, he couldn’t even reply to the right posts! |  |
| "mostly smug self indulgent sixth formers” - TWTD User (Nov 2025) |
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| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 19:00 - Jan 8 with 138 views | WeWereZombies |
| People getting angry about Trump and Venezuela on 10:24 - Jan 8 by Guthrum |
Which is pretty much what Britain did in large areas during the second phase of the Empire. Decapitate or defeat the local regime. Promote someone more compliant and leave them to run the place, backed by British power and the threat of the same happening again if they stepped out of line.
Most of India was governed indirectly, through the numerous Princes, South Africa was handed back to the Boers within a few years of their defeat, Zululand had a family member of Cetshweyo put on the throne, even the settler-states in Australia and Canada were turned into self-governing Dominions.
It's the lesson we learnt from America, that it is cheaper and more efficient to retain or introduce a local layer of governance between the colony and the controlling power. With little interference so long as they paid their dues and left foreign policy alone. A lesson somewhat reinforced more recently by the Iraq experience, where trying to dismantle the entire Ba'athist structure led to chaos and disaster.
The problem using India as a counterweight now the USA has joined the Russo-Chinese "spheres of influence" game is that, while it may have the largest population (just), it lags well behind two of those economically and all three militarily - especially in power projection. They are also run by a fiercely nationalist regime (which is not really that fond of us). |
Do not, at your peril, underestimate India. A quick Google gives me this:
'India's economy is the world's fourth-largest by nominal GDP, estimated around $4.18 trillion in 2025, having recently surpassed Japan, and is projected to become the third-largest by 2030, following the US and China, with projections reaching $7.3 trillion. Measured by Purchasing Power Parity (PPP), India is also the third-largest economy, reflecting its significant buying power.'
The point remains that you are trying to staple an old order made up of cardboard and glue onto the fluid and jelly like complexity of a World where communications are instantaneous and do not rely upon the training of pigeons, where most weaponry is notionally tested but untried so that military force is as veiled as trade embargoes and diplomatic censure, where voting intentions are formed as much by misinformation as by adherence to principles or reasoned deduction of what is best for us. It really shouldn't be a surprise that trying to fit 1906 to 2026 neither works as a demonstration of how things are (with the names changed) or is fit for purpose as a planning tool. | |
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