| Covid vaccine harm 06:24 - Feb 18 with 4833 views | gtsb1966 |
22,000 claims yet only a 1% pay out but at a cost of £50m to the tax payer. Covid, the disease that keeps on giving, for some.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art |  | | |  |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:07 - Feb 19 with 631 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 23:56 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman |
No, I'm not. I'm making a point about where you draw the line when it comes to other people's health.
I believe if there is a bout of covid going round, healthy people should not be vaccinated or locked up. |
You're definitely constructing a false equivalence.
Nobody was forced to have vaccinations in this country, it was offered as it lowered the chance of serious infection and hospitalisation. To keep insinuating that it was mandatory is also false.
Whether restrictions are put in place for the unvaccinated is a different matter and one for society rather than the individual. Look at where we are currently heading with measles with vaccination levels too low to ensure herd immunity yet many people expect others to be vaccinated to maintain their herd immunity.
Some countries do restrict services for the unvaccinated such as children not being able to attend state school in France if they aren't vaccinated but that hasn't happened here so to say people don't have body autonomy as you've implied in other posts isn't correct.
SB |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 with 601 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:05 - Feb 19 by reusersfreekicks |
You do know that a lot of previously healthy people died during covid?
How would you have felt as an exhausted nurse or doctor tending to a previously proud anti vaxer now very ill and begging, all to late for the vaccine?
By your logic maybe they shouldn't have been able to access health care.
Or was that fake government and big pharma propaganda.
People still pushing anti vaccine conspiracy nonsense is tedious and offensive |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:17 - Feb 19 with 597 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |
"None of the people you knew."
Well that must be a statistically significant sample size and we should all draw conclusions based on that... |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:18 - Feb 19 with 595 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:07 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
You're definitely constructing a false equivalence.
Nobody was forced to have vaccinations in this country, it was offered as it lowered the chance of serious infection and hospitalisation. To keep insinuating that it was mandatory is also false.
Whether restrictions are put in place for the unvaccinated is a different matter and one for society rather than the individual. Look at where we are currently heading with measles with vaccination levels too low to ensure herd immunity yet many people expect others to be vaccinated to maintain their herd immunity.
Some countries do restrict services for the unvaccinated such as children not being able to attend state school in France if they aren't vaccinated but that hasn't happened here so to say people don't have body autonomy as you've implied in other posts isn't correct.
SB |
I live in France.
Do my comments in this thread about state coercion make sense to you now? [Post edited 19 Feb 0:31]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 00:53 - Feb 19 with 553 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:17 - Feb 19 by reusersfreekicks |
"None of the people you knew."
Well that must be a statistically significant sample size and we should all draw conclusions based on that... |
You fail to understand that many people who decided not to get vaccinated did so at the expense of their jobs. It's not a decision you make lightly.
I work as a psychologist and yes, the number of educated people who gave up their jobs or were forced into vaccination is significant. Nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, military personnel, chemists, parapharmacists... I'm sorry that my personal experience of that time is different to your own.
Before you spout off about your own little world, spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent than you, and far more knowledgeable about vaccines than you, who were under so much stress and pressure to conform to something that they didn't agree with for perfectly valid reasons that resulted in countless job losses, divorces (including my own) and the resulting effect that has on those families' children's mental health, addictions and in some cases suicides. [Post edited 19 Feb 1:07]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:00 - Feb 19 with 550 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:53 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You fail to understand that many people who decided not to get vaccinated did so at the expense of their jobs. It's not a decision you make lightly.
I work as a psychologist and yes, the number of educated people who gave up their jobs or were forced into vaccination is significant. Nurses, doctors, ambulance workers, military personnel, chemists, parapharmacists... I'm sorry that my personal experience of that time is different to your own.
Before you spout off about your own little world, spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent than you, and far more knowledgeable about vaccines than you, who were under so much stress and pressure to conform to something that they didn't agree with for perfectly valid reasons that resulted in countless job losses, divorces (including my own) and the resulting effect that has on those families' children's mental health, addictions and in some cases suicides. [Post edited 19 Feb 1:07]
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So yes, I do have "skin in the game" of sorts, but I chose my words carefully. Perhaps you with your narrow perspective gained from your small world will understand now that is why I've continued to state that I'm not antivax, but I'm pro choice concerning this matter. Apparently, you're not. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:06 - Feb 19 with 541 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Covid vaccine harm on 14:54 - Feb 18 by Cafe_Newman |
I have little skin in the game on this topic, but I'm fascinated to know how you can claim that it "can’t be argued that vaccines saved millions or billions of lives across the globe".
What real data do you have to support this claim? |
There might be an aging population in many countries but “Billions” is an insane claim when you look at the amount of people on the planet and every single dataset about the virus and deaths globally. |  |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 with 532 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:06 - Feb 19 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
There might be an aging population in many countries but “Billions” is an insane claim when you look at the amount of people on the planet and every single dataset about the virus and deaths globally. |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. | | | |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 01:23 - Feb 19 with 500 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. |
Yes! | |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 08:05 - Feb 19 with 424 views | Axeldalai_lama |
And they've said they were talking about all vaccines, before this thread went down a rabbit hole. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 with 413 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:18 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I live in France.
Do my comments in this thread about state coercion make sense to you now? [Post edited 19 Feb 0:31]
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Not especially.
In France it's not new vaccines like covid that they currently expect people to have, it's very well tested and highly used vaccines such as MMR. There is still body autonomy, however if you decide to do something that effects other people, such as not take MMR and reduce herd immunity against measles then there are consequences to that decision.
I actually think we should have a similar stance in the UK.
SB | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 with 413 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 00:14 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm not an anti-vaxxer and I know very few. One thing is for sure, none of the people who I know who chose not to take the Covid vaccine, especially the previously healthy ones, would be begging anyone for the vaccine, intubation or remdesivir in hospital.
You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers. |
"You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers."
Why don't you tell us then instead of skirting around that point?
SB | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 with 359 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:07 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
"You clearly have no idea what motivated many people not to get those vaccinations, preferring instead to believe that they were all conspiracy theorists, flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers."
Why don't you tell us then instead of skirting around that point?
SB |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 08:58 - Feb 19 with 358 views | LeoMuff |
| Covid vaccine harm on 01:15 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
You realise, I'm sure, that I was quoting another poster. |
As you also realise the post was on all vaccines. Covid vaccine is in the 10s of millions. |  |
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:04 - Feb 19 with 340 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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Where have I insulted you? I think that's an unfair accusation that you should retract.
The large-scale French study I posted isn't exactly what you asked for but it does deal with longer term mortality risk from the vaccine with a very large sample size. Did you read that and did you have any thoughts on it?
Do you not consider the MMR vaccine to be thoroughly tested by this point? You've focused on covid vaccines in many of your replies but you do also mention vaccines in the general case and clearly not all are the same.
Are people trying to change your behaviour? People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide. There is no mandate for vaccines so your body autonomy point seems a stretch.
You're right though that we are all hitting an impasse.
Have a good day.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:09]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:07 - Feb 19 with 335 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:58 - Feb 19 by LeoMuff |
As you also realise the post was on all vaccines. Covid vaccine is in the 10s of millions. |
Yes, I realise that.
You can link me to thousands of documents detailing the effectiveness of vaccines, and I will agree with most of it. I've stated my position on bodily sovereignty countless times now - a position which was a majority one outside of autocratic regimes until quite recently. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:17 - Feb 19 with 325 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:04 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
Where have I insulted you? I think that's an unfair accusation that you should retract.
The large-scale French study I posted isn't exactly what you asked for but it does deal with longer term mortality risk from the vaccine with a very large sample size. Did you read that and did you have any thoughts on it?
Do you not consider the MMR vaccine to be thoroughly tested by this point? You've focused on covid vaccines in many of your replies but you do also mention vaccines in the general case and clearly not all are the same.
Are people trying to change your behaviour? People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide. There is no mandate for vaccines so your body autonomy point seems a stretch.
You're right though that we are all hitting an impasse.
Have a good day.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:09]
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I have not accused you of insulting me, so there's nothing to retract.
You should retract your demands for a retraction.
"People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide."
What "substance" do I need to share to support my position of bodily sovereignty? I think you need to read my last reply to you again. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:21]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:21 - Feb 19 with 309 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:17 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I have not accused you of insulting me, so there's nothing to retract.
You should retract your demands for a retraction.
"People are asking for some actual substance and evidence which you are reluctant to provide."
What "substance" do I need to share to support my position of bodily sovereignty? I think you need to read my last reply to you again. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:21]
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It read that way to me but in which case I retract :).
I read your reply, there were 4 pages of people asking for evidence before it which you didn't really engage with. I don't really think you should decide this "things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion" for other people though and use it as an get-out to not post evidence.
Did you look at the study?
Anyway, as you rightly pointed out we won't agree so best leave it there.
SB
Edit: I see you've made an edit. I wasn't asking for evidence on body sovereignty and I don't think others were either. You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that. It was why I refocused to MMR which has a long history of usage with a large number of doses. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:24]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:32 - Feb 19 with 287 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:21 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
It read that way to me but in which case I retract :).
I read your reply, there were 4 pages of people asking for evidence before it which you didn't really engage with. I don't really think you should decide this "things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion" for other people though and use it as an get-out to not post evidence.
Did you look at the study?
Anyway, as you rightly pointed out we won't agree so best leave it there.
SB
Edit: I see you've made an edit. I wasn't asking for evidence on body sovereignty and I don't think others were either. You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that. It was why I refocused to MMR which has a long history of usage with a large number of doses. [Post edited 19 Feb 9:24]
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Thank you for your retraction.
You say "You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that."
If you can provide any evidence in this thread where I have alleged anything of the sort, go ahead. If not, I will assume that this is another case of you reading something wrongly and I'd like another retraction while you are handing them out so freely. | | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:43 - Feb 19 with 269 views | StokieBlue |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:32 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
Thank you for your retraction.
You say "You have alleged on numerous occasions in the thread that vaccines may not be safe over the longer term, people were asking for evidence around that."
If you can provide any evidence in this thread where I have alleged anything of the sort, go ahead. If not, I will assume that this is another case of you reading something wrongly and I'd like another retraction while you are handing them out so freely. |
This certainly reads that way to me but perhaps I am not reading it as you intended?
"medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm"
I don't think your point on body autonomy is valid, nobody is forcing you to have any vaccines.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:44]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 09:46 - Feb 19 with 259 views | MattinLondon |
| Covid vaccine harm on 08:57 - Feb 19 by Cafe_Newman |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
Suffice to say, I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm.
Say all you like about evidence, misinformation, scaremongering or being dangerous. I have heard every point of view a thousand times and that is why I hold the position that I do. It's not an anti-vax position, it's a bodily sovereignty position.
Insult me all you like, neither of us will be changing our positions on this matter this week so I have no intention of defending a minority view of this nature on a football forum with people who appear to have a considerable interest in changing the behaviours of others.
Cheerio. [Post edited 19 Feb 8:59]
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I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
In layman’s speak - I have no real hard evidence at all. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 10:12 - Feb 19 with 227 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:46 - Feb 19 by MattinLondon |
I'm reluctant to play the game where you are likely to ask for evidence of things which I am either unable to share because of my job or things which you may consider insufficiently evidenced in your opinion.
In layman’s speak - I have no real hard evidence at all. |
Evidence of what?
Edit. Matt, you clearly haven't understood my position at all. What evidence do you think I'm unable or unwilling to give. The same question goes to Churchman and anyone else who has upvoted your message. [Post edited 19 Feb 10:22]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 10:12 - Feb 19 with 227 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 09:43 - Feb 19 by StokieBlue |
This certainly reads that way to me but perhaps I am not reading it as you intended?
"medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm"
I don't think your point on body autonomy is valid, nobody is forcing you to have any vaccines.
SB [Post edited 19 Feb 9:44]
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If me saying "I think we all reserve the right not impose on or insert in others, medical practices or substances which cannot be guaranteed to do no harm" is an example of me making numerous allegations of long-term vaccine safety concerns, I'm not sure we're even speaking the same language.
Please find a genuine example of me alleging long term safety issues of vaccines in this thread, or post another retraction.
You're right, no one has forced me to be vaccinated. Coerced, yes. I know others who have had to close their businesses for refusing to get vaccinated.
Edit: Removed copy and pasted text from foot of message [Post edited 19 Feb 10:18]
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| Covid vaccine harm on 10:49 - Feb 19 with 188 views | Churchman |
An interesting thread. Unfortunately I am one of those that has to ‘spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent’ than me, to quote the most active poster on this thread, but I shall offer a view from an idiot’s standpoint. Mine.
At the time, what was being faced was the unknown. We the plebs were presented with images of body bags in corridors, graphs, stats, plastic tents and the threat of a pandemic with insufficient resources. It was scary. Were there preparations for such things? To a limited extent, but nothing on the scale of Covid.
A lot of the basic work within government departments went out of the window with austerity (tories deemed contingency planning and unproductive useless work so binning it equalled reduced headcount - the only priority) and Brexit. This is not anecdotal - I saw enough of it first hand from 2003-19 to give a view.
So the pandemic arrived and the government had to make decisions. The scientists they brought in could advise, but only on the basis of limited information, best guess, experience. Other countries were doing their thing and there was knowledge from them and plenty of stats flying about. The only obvious solution beyond letting it run its course (anti vaxer position) was lockdown and vaccine development. That was how it was.
Ok, lockdown probably did more harm than good in so many ways (not a fact, just gut instinct), but we all have 100% accuracy on the gift of hindsight. The effects were unknown. Nobody actually knew the consequences of letting covid run its course either beyond the frightening levels of illness and death at the time.
That vaccines were developed and deployed so quickly was remarkable. So did I, as one of the ignoramuses, have any doubt in having the vaccine. Did I heck as like. And when my father was left out by accident off the vulnerable priority list, I was on to that ghastly pilsbury dough looking Suffolk Coastal MP like the wrath of god.
As I saw it at the time, if a vaccine reduces risk of Covid, flu, plague and Black Death but a few percent, given my age I’d take it. If that carried a tiny degree of risk, including death, I’ll still take it. Is it a gamble? Not really because despite a few moans and groans at the time and now, statistically to me it’s a no brainer. The lesson still applies.
There is a risk in all things. A good friend of mine is a massive conspiracy theorist. You name it he believes it so of course he refused the vaccine. A friends misses refused because she hates needles. Each to their own in what they prioritise.
At the time there was one particular poster on here who went to the trouble of reading what was out there and more importantly understanding it. For me, he became a main source of information (thanks). However much I might disagree on other matters, on things like this I’ll take his view over some of the other stuff I read including within this thread, just as I did a the time.
That’s how I see it. |  | | |
| Covid vaccine harm on 10:53 - Feb 19 with 174 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Covid vaccine harm on 10:49 - Feb 19 by Churchman |
An interesting thread. Unfortunately I am one of those that has to ‘spare a thought for those people, far more intelligent’ than me, to quote the most active poster on this thread, but I shall offer a view from an idiot’s standpoint. Mine.
At the time, what was being faced was the unknown. We the plebs were presented with images of body bags in corridors, graphs, stats, plastic tents and the threat of a pandemic with insufficient resources. It was scary. Were there preparations for such things? To a limited extent, but nothing on the scale of Covid.
A lot of the basic work within government departments went out of the window with austerity (tories deemed contingency planning and unproductive useless work so binning it equalled reduced headcount - the only priority) and Brexit. This is not anecdotal - I saw enough of it first hand from 2003-19 to give a view.
So the pandemic arrived and the government had to make decisions. The scientists they brought in could advise, but only on the basis of limited information, best guess, experience. Other countries were doing their thing and there was knowledge from them and plenty of stats flying about. The only obvious solution beyond letting it run its course (anti vaxer position) was lockdown and vaccine development. That was how it was.
Ok, lockdown probably did more harm than good in so many ways (not a fact, just gut instinct), but we all have 100% accuracy on the gift of hindsight. The effects were unknown. Nobody actually knew the consequences of letting covid run its course either beyond the frightening levels of illness and death at the time.
That vaccines were developed and deployed so quickly was remarkable. So did I, as one of the ignoramuses, have any doubt in having the vaccine. Did I heck as like. And when my father was left out by accident off the vulnerable priority list, I was on to that ghastly pilsbury dough looking Suffolk Coastal MP like the wrath of god.
As I saw it at the time, if a vaccine reduces risk of Covid, flu, plague and Black Death but a few percent, given my age I’d take it. If that carried a tiny degree of risk, including death, I’ll still take it. Is it a gamble? Not really because despite a few moans and groans at the time and now, statistically to me it’s a no brainer. The lesson still applies.
There is a risk in all things. A good friend of mine is a massive conspiracy theorist. You name it he believes it so of course he refused the vaccine. A friends misses refused because she hates needles. Each to their own in what they prioritise.
At the time there was one particular poster on here who went to the trouble of reading what was out there and more importantly understanding it. For me, he became a main source of information (thanks). However much I might disagree on other matters, on things like this I’ll take his view over some of the other stuff I read including within this thread, just as I did a the time.
That’s how I see it. |
You upvoted MattinLondon's post above. What evidence do you think I am unwilling to provide? [Post edited 19 Feb 11:17]
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