| Migration DNA 10:53 - Mar 13 with 900 views | Churchman |
I know there’s been threads on this sort of thing before but I thought I’d fling in a few more thoughts. I got the results back from one of those ancestry DNA things the other day. I’ve no idea of the accuracy but I guess it’s a crude indicator.
The results say 78% north west Europe/SE England, 8% west midlands, 3% East Midlands/Yorkshire, 3% Wales (aaaargh!), Devon and Somerset 3%, Holland 3%, Denmark 2%.
Looking a the obvious, it’s clear the old ancestors have moved around Northern Europe, probably back and forth, but with the exception of maybe a tiny bit of 3% welsh element they don’t originate from these islands - like just about everyone else.
My surname appears in near enough current format at the time of the Norman invasion, but populations were moving around long before even the Roman period. Intermarriage of peoples is also quite clear as is merging /adoption of cultures, practices and of course language I guess sort of defines people here and is ever changing.
So all this has done is reinforce my view that the arguments of in particular racists hold no validity whatsoever. |  | | |  |
| Migration DNA on 11:00 - Mar 13 with 767 views | Benters |
What’s wrong with Wales! It’s Gods country lovely isn’t it.
All of my family on my Fathers side were miners or owned pubs which was nice. [Post edited 13 Mar 11:07]
|  |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:05 - Mar 13 with 758 views | Swansea_Blue |
Does any of that explain your behaviours in hindsight? Such as, do you walk around in a flat cap and keep a ferret down your trousers 3% of the time? Feel attracted to sheep 3% of the time? Or have a fondness for flat-packed furniture 2% of the time (wrong country, but they’re all the same innit). |  |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:08 - Mar 13 with 734 views | Benters |
| Migration DNA on 11:05 - Mar 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Does any of that explain your behaviours in hindsight? Such as, do you walk around in a flat cap and keep a ferret down your trousers 3% of the time? Feel attracted to sheep 3% of the time? Or have a fondness for flat-packed furniture 2% of the time (wrong country, but they’re all the same innit). |
I’ve got all those but no ferret yet. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:11 - Mar 13 with 718 views | Churchman |
| Migration DNA on 11:05 - Mar 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Does any of that explain your behaviours in hindsight? Such as, do you walk around in a flat cap and keep a ferret down your trousers 3% of the time? Feel attracted to sheep 3% of the time? Or have a fondness for flat-packed furniture 2% of the time (wrong country, but they’re all the same innit). |
I rather like sheep. They always seem friendly. Not keen on ferrets and don’t have a flat cap. Like the county and the people though. They’re straight and to the point which is a good thing. And yeah, I’ve got some of IKEAs stuff and always liked blondes too. And Amsterdam is a good place n all. | | | |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 with 703 views | Benters |
| Migration DNA on 11:11 - Mar 13 by Churchman |
I rather like sheep. They always seem friendly. Not keen on ferrets and don’t have a flat cap. Like the county and the people though. They’re straight and to the point which is a good thing. And yeah, I’ve got some of IKEAs stuff and always liked blondes too. And Amsterdam is a good place n all. |
You don’t realise how big sheep are until you grab a hold of one!
I rescued one the other winter it had got out of the field and I held the electric fence down with my rubber boots.
Wales is a beautiful country I’ve had it said the people can be a bit frosty and that’s just the women. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 with 698 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Migration DNA on 11:11 - Mar 13 by Churchman |
I rather like sheep. They always seem friendly. Not keen on ferrets and don’t have a flat cap. Like the county and the people though. They’re straight and to the point which is a good thing. And yeah, I’ve got some of IKEAs stuff and always liked blondes too. And Amsterdam is a good place n all. |
Your niche ‘bits’ are actually all from nice parts of the world. I’m not so sure about the SE, although I suppose there are some nicer bits once you get out of the urban sprawl, such as the South Downs and the like. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 with 700 views | Guthrum |
| Migration DNA on 11:00 - Mar 13 by Benters |
What’s wrong with Wales! It’s Gods country lovely isn’t it.
All of my family on my Fathers side were miners or owned pubs which was nice. [Post edited 13 Mar 11:07]
|
So, land of your fathers, eh? |  |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:17 - Mar 13 with 680 views | Benters |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 by Guthrum |
So, land of your fathers, eh? |
*Hits Cymbal*  | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Migration DNA on 11:21 - Mar 13 with 664 views | Churchman |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 by Benters |
You don’t realise how big sheep are until you grab a hold of one!
I rescued one the other winter it had got out of the field and I held the electric fence down with my rubber boots.
Wales is a beautiful country I’ve had it said the people can be a bit frosty and that’s just the women. |
Yes, I actually like Wales and the people.
Back to sheep, myself and my mate were introduced to our new boss years ago now. He was very welsh and just talked at us for an age boring us to tears. At the end he said ‘any questions?’. My chum said ‘is it difficult to get each back leg of the sheep in your Wellington boots to hold them in place?’
Stunned silence then ‘get out!’. As we trudged away I said ‘that went well’…. | | | |
| Migration DNA on 11:22 - Mar 13 with 654 views | Guthrum |
Were they doing that on matches to known lineages? Otherwise not entirely sure how they could use DNA to differentiate between the East and West Midlands. It's not that precise and, as you say, people moved around over longer distances than that, over the thousand years since the Danelaw was a thing. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 11:24 - Mar 13 with 650 views | bsw72 |
I have now submitted a test to Ancestry 5 (five) times following the instructions - and each time the test has failed.
My wife is now concerned I am not of this world . . . |  | | |
| Migration DNA on 11:37 - Mar 13 with 611 views | Churchman |
| Migration DNA on 11:22 - Mar 13 by Guthrum |
Were they doing that on matches to known lineages? Otherwise not entirely sure how they could use DNA to differentiate between the East and West Midlands. It's not that precise and, as you say, people moved around over longer distances than that, over the thousand years since the Danelaw was a thing. |
I’ve no idea, but I’m guessing it’s all very general.
Population movement long preceded the Danelaw which existed 870s to about 950 in an agreed way (England became a nation as we know it after Edward and Athelflaed (children of Alfred) then Athelstan unified the country.
The impact on DNA by the Vikings was actually very limited, unlike its cultural influence which was considerable, including place names. But given the Normans, which it seems at least some of my ancestors probably were, were ‘north men’ - Scandinavians that invaded northern France all that says is what a melting pot Europe is.
Interesting if confusing. | | | |
| Migration DNA on 11:49 - Mar 13 with 576 views | stringy |
if you dive deeper into the aDNA stuff then it's pretty apparent (and zero surprise given our location geographically regarding proximity to continental Europe) that there have been multiple waves of migration and intermixing from influx of farmers around 6000 years ago, via those who brought the so-called Beaker package/culture with them around 4250 years ago and on and on.
We had Mike Parker Pearson here (who does a lot of the Stonehenge related work) last term and made the point that the average Brit is a complete mongrel in terms of ancestry, and utterly counter to the 'reality' propagated by the far right; that made I clap that did.
Having excavated Roman and Saxon Ipswich, just two of our heritage inputs, this has always been fairly obvious before the wonders of 23andme etc (an account I alas had to delete last year when they went bust, but always chuffed as to how my Neanderthal genetics were 'higher than average') |  | | |
| Migration DNA on 11:58 - Mar 13 with 554 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Migration DNA on 11:49 - Mar 13 by stringy |
if you dive deeper into the aDNA stuff then it's pretty apparent (and zero surprise given our location geographically regarding proximity to continental Europe) that there have been multiple waves of migration and intermixing from influx of farmers around 6000 years ago, via those who brought the so-called Beaker package/culture with them around 4250 years ago and on and on.
We had Mike Parker Pearson here (who does a lot of the Stonehenge related work) last term and made the point that the average Brit is a complete mongrel in terms of ancestry, and utterly counter to the 'reality' propagated by the far right; that made I clap that did.
Having excavated Roman and Saxon Ipswich, just two of our heritage inputs, this has always been fairly obvious before the wonders of 23andme etc (an account I alas had to delete last year when they went bust, but always chuffed as to how my Neanderthal genetics were 'higher than average') |
Have an American friend whose mother always claimed she had Cherokee ancestors. She was distraught when a test showed no Native American links and she was 2% Neanderthal. |  |
| |
| Migration DNA on 12:13 - Mar 13 with 495 views | Guthrum |
| Migration DNA on 11:37 - Mar 13 by Churchman |
I’ve no idea, but I’m guessing it’s all very general.
Population movement long preceded the Danelaw which existed 870s to about 950 in an agreed way (England became a nation as we know it after Edward and Athelflaed (children of Alfred) then Athelstan unified the country.
The impact on DNA by the Vikings was actually very limited, unlike its cultural influence which was considerable, including place names. But given the Normans, which it seems at least some of my ancestors probably were, were ‘north men’ - Scandinavians that invaded northern France all that says is what a melting pot Europe is.
Interesting if confusing. |
Yes, I was only citing the Danelaw as the most recent possible source of any kind of differentiation between East and West Midlands. Prior to that they were all Mercian Angles. And before that fairly homogenous Britons (the Belgae were further south and east).
Probably a hint of Scandinavian, as you say. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 12:14 - Mar 13 with 491 views | Churchman |
| Migration DNA on 11:14 - Mar 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Your niche ‘bits’ are actually all from nice parts of the world. I’m not so sure about the SE, although I suppose there are some nicer bits once you get out of the urban sprawl, such as the South Downs and the like. |
SE includes East Anglia and an arc of England down to Dorset area. Most people of my known ancestry is East Anglia | | | |
| Migration DNA on 12:51 - Mar 13 with 425 views | leitrimblue |
As you say there was so much movement especially in prehistoric Europe that I struggle to see how accurate the results for separate regions of the UK can be. I'm not sure what defines say SE England DNA and what then separates it from say West Midlands DNA.
I'm just guessing, but are they using skeletal assemblages excavated from these regions and suggesting that this is the DNA from that region? If so, this is likely to be quite inaccurate I would imagine. Though guess it would depend on the size of the sample the DNA was taken from.
Also what period are these skeletal remains from?
Are they using the DNA from say neolithic skeletal assemblages found in these regions and suggesting that this is the DNA of this region or are the examples taken from medieval skeletons and using that as the DNA of that region? Or are they using the DNA taken from every excavated skeleton in this region to build a common shared DNA?
I know in Ireland for example the DNA can be separated from East to West. Obviously the East experienced much more movement from abroad and I believe the DNA of those in the East of the country/Dublin is difficult to separate from British DNA.
It's an interesting subject, I have a friend who's a bit of an expert on Ancient DNA and assures me as we get more information and cross reference more large skeletal assemblages with say isotope analysis our understanding of prehistory will change significantly |  | | |
| Migration DNA on 13:14 - Mar 13 with 371 views | stringy |
| Migration DNA on 12:51 - Mar 13 by leitrimblue |
As you say there was so much movement especially in prehistoric Europe that I struggle to see how accurate the results for separate regions of the UK can be. I'm not sure what defines say SE England DNA and what then separates it from say West Midlands DNA.
I'm just guessing, but are they using skeletal assemblages excavated from these regions and suggesting that this is the DNA from that region? If so, this is likely to be quite inaccurate I would imagine. Though guess it would depend on the size of the sample the DNA was taken from.
Also what period are these skeletal remains from?
Are they using the DNA from say neolithic skeletal assemblages found in these regions and suggesting that this is the DNA of this region or are the examples taken from medieval skeletons and using that as the DNA of that region? Or are they using the DNA taken from every excavated skeleton in this region to build a common shared DNA?
I know in Ireland for example the DNA can be separated from East to West. Obviously the East experienced much more movement from abroad and I believe the DNA of those in the East of the country/Dublin is difficult to separate from British DNA.
It's an interesting subject, I have a friend who's a bit of an expert on Ancient DNA and assures me as we get more information and cross reference more large skeletal assemblages with say isotope analysis our understanding of prehistory will change significantly |
I guess in part from haplotypes in modern populations by district?
East Anglia has a very poor burial record for the Neolithic - our glacial outwash sands and gravels tend to have a high PH and so skeletal remains don't tend to survive very well - think of the much later sand men at Sutton Hoo for example (at my Mesolithic-Neolithic-Beaker dig at Freston we have almost no organic survival aside from some tiny fragments of heavily calcified/burnt animal bone and the nigh-indestructible hazelnut fragments).
The aDNA world is very sexy right now, and lots being published in the top journals Nature / Science, but those venues are limited to 1500 word articles which thus lends itself to hyperbole and less room for the fuzzy reality.
Wessex and Scotland have generated a lot of data, then that tends to get extrapolated across the country.
Again, going back to the OP, a lot of what is being currently said is based on modern genetic profiles and linking those to broad stroke European patterns.
That said, there is room for regionalism in all of this at the micro-scale of Britain and Ireland, due to cultural distinctions (Celtic fringe/linguistic differences etc.) though as you in particular would appreciate, the relationship between 'culture', language, ethnicity and genes is a very messy one, not that this stops the right wing trying to co-opt a lot of these studies. | | | |
| Migration DNA on 13:16 - Mar 13 with 354 views | giant_stow |
| Migration DNA on 11:00 - Mar 13 by Benters |
What’s wrong with Wales! It’s Gods country lovely isn’t it.
All of my family on my Fathers side were miners or owned pubs which was nice. [Post edited 13 Mar 11:07]
|
My mum's Welsh, so I feel lucky!
A very short nation though - always remember going to a family bash where I met a guy introduced to me as "Tall Tom" - he was 5.10ish |  |
| |
| Migration DNA on 13:49 - Mar 13 with 300 views | leitrimblue |
| Migration DNA on 13:14 - Mar 13 by stringy |
I guess in part from haplotypes in modern populations by district?
East Anglia has a very poor burial record for the Neolithic - our glacial outwash sands and gravels tend to have a high PH and so skeletal remains don't tend to survive very well - think of the much later sand men at Sutton Hoo for example (at my Mesolithic-Neolithic-Beaker dig at Freston we have almost no organic survival aside from some tiny fragments of heavily calcified/burnt animal bone and the nigh-indestructible hazelnut fragments).
The aDNA world is very sexy right now, and lots being published in the top journals Nature / Science, but those venues are limited to 1500 word articles which thus lends itself to hyperbole and less room for the fuzzy reality.
Wessex and Scotland have generated a lot of data, then that tends to get extrapolated across the country.
Again, going back to the OP, a lot of what is being currently said is based on modern genetic profiles and linking those to broad stroke European patterns.
That said, there is room for regionalism in all of this at the micro-scale of Britain and Ireland, due to cultural distinctions (Celtic fringe/linguistic differences etc.) though as you in particular would appreciate, the relationship between 'culture', language, ethnicity and genes is a very messy one, not that this stops the right wing trying to co-opt a lot of these studies. |
OK, so an even smaller skeletal record then I imagined for East Anglia. I excavated a quite fancy iron age cemetery with Cambridge unit near Duxford many, many years ago and the skeletons were quite well preserved. I'm guessing the geology is a tad different out that way?
Ancient DNA is something I got interested in through a friend getting into it late in his career and him never stopping talking about it  . He was at Queens Belfast but retired a few years back now, but his enthusiasm for it was contagious.
Your excavation at Freston was a Causewayed Enclosure wasn’t it? Bizarrely my favourite monument. I discovered the 1 in Magheraboy/Sligo a few years back.
The relationship between culture, language, ethnicity and genes is a very messy and interesting one. I'm actually a good example of this, I'm born and raised in the UK, have an incredible Haverhill/pikey accent but the mother's from the West of Ireland so my DNA indicates higher Irish genetics then most of my Irish mates, especially those from the Dublin area. (Much to their disappointment )
I like to tell them in my strong English accent that they've been oppressing my people for 800 years | | | |
| Migration DNA on 13:59 - Mar 13 with 270 views | leitrimblue |
| Migration DNA on 13:16 - Mar 13 by giant_stow |
My mum's Welsh, so I feel lucky!
A very short nation though - always remember going to a family bash where I met a guy introduced to me as "Tall Tom" - he was 5.10ish |
I believe their is upcoming genetic research that explains the DNA link between the Welsh and Hobbits. | | | |
| Migration DNA on 14:04 - Mar 13 with 248 views | Benters |
| Migration DNA on 13:16 - Mar 13 by giant_stow |
My mum's Welsh, so I feel lucky!
A very short nation though - always remember going to a family bash where I met a guy introduced to me as "Tall Tom" - he was 5.10ish |
They had to be short to get down the mine shafts. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 14:05 - Mar 13 with 245 views | Benters |
| Migration DNA on 13:59 - Mar 13 by leitrimblue |
I believe their is upcoming genetic research that explains the DNA link between the Welsh and Hobbits. |
I have hairy feet and back yes. | |
| |
| Migration DNA on 14:32 - Mar 13 with 202 views | stringy |
| Migration DNA on 13:49 - Mar 13 by leitrimblue |
OK, so an even smaller skeletal record then I imagined for East Anglia. I excavated a quite fancy iron age cemetery with Cambridge unit near Duxford many, many years ago and the skeletons were quite well preserved. I'm guessing the geology is a tad different out that way?
Ancient DNA is something I got interested in through a friend getting into it late in his career and him never stopping talking about it . He was at Queens Belfast but retired a few years back now, but his enthusiasm for it was contagious.
Your excavation at Freston was a Causewayed Enclosure wasn’t it? Bizarrely my favourite monument. I discovered the 1 in Magheraboy/Sligo a few years back.
The relationship between culture, language, ethnicity and genes is a very messy and interesting one. I'm actually a good example of this, I'm born and raised in the UK, have an incredible Haverhill/pikey accent but the mother's from the West of Ireland so my DNA indicates higher Irish genetics then most of my Irish mates, especially those from the Dublin area. (Much to their disappointment )
I like to tell them in my strong English accent that they've been oppressing my people for 800 years |
Yeah west Anglia gets into the chalklands, that like Wessex tend to mean much better preservation. I mean we do get skellies in Suffolk, as we dug the Early Saxon burial ground at the Buttermarket, though even then some of the more delicate bones would have dissolved.
This is a useful chat about aDNA hosted by Brian Cox and involving such folks as tom Booth - https://www.crick.ac.uk/news/2
Yep Freston causewayed enclosure, except since we've started working there we now have a major Mesolithic backstory (dates to 9000 BC) and Beaker presence with geophys suggesting a henge... making it (arguably) Suffolk's oldest and long-term used sacred landscape (all focused on the central spring).
genes and identity... indeed! | | | |
| Migration DNA on 14:41 - Mar 13 with 183 views | leitrimblue |
| Migration DNA on 14:32 - Mar 13 by stringy |
Yeah west Anglia gets into the chalklands, that like Wessex tend to mean much better preservation. I mean we do get skellies in Suffolk, as we dug the Early Saxon burial ground at the Buttermarket, though even then some of the more delicate bones would have dissolved.
This is a useful chat about aDNA hosted by Brian Cox and involving such folks as tom Booth - https://www.crick.ac.uk/news/2
Yep Freston causewayed enclosure, except since we've started working there we now have a major Mesolithic backstory (dates to 9000 BC) and Beaker presence with geophys suggesting a henge... making it (arguably) Suffolk's oldest and long-term used sacred landscape (all focused on the central spring).
genes and identity... indeed! |
I'd be very interested in that Mesolithic backstory. May pm you later if that OK?
Cool, will have a listen to that | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
