| Islamophobia pure and simple 15:48 - Mar 19 with 4711 views | DJR |
Sadly it's normalised these days in the right wing media and has been for quite a few years.
But this has an impact on Muslims in this country, including those who rang into LBC this morning and my daughter's best friend, because it produces a climate of fear.
Timothy doubled down in article in today's Telegraph with very dubious reasoning.
"Some MPs and commentators say public concern [about prayer events like the one in Trafalgar Square] is misplaced. Some have even called it racist or – to use the recent invention – “Islamophobic”. They claim this exhibition of faith is no different from Trafalgar Square hosting dancing Sikhs, drinking football fans, or an Easter Passion Play.
But this is wrong. First, the adhan makes the theological claim that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger. That is, by definition, a repudiation of other beliefs. When proclaimed publicly, it is not just private devotion made visible; it is a declaration of dominance.
Some claim the adhan is no different from the peal of church bells, or the recital of the Nicene Creed in church. But this is wrong on three counts. First, church bells simply ring out, and do not assert any theological message or criticism of other faiths. Second, the Nicene Creed is a personal statement of faith that begins, “I believe”.
And third, even if these facts were not true, Christianity holds a different place to other religions in Britain. It is the foundation of our way of life, expressed in laws and norms and our institutional, intellectual and cultural inheritance. Expressions of Christianity here do not seek to challenge or replace anything, because our society rests upon the Christian idea.
The adhan, however, explicitly rejects the Christian belief in Jesus and the Holy Trinity, and asserts the truth of the Islamic faith. Indeed, historically the adhan was not only a communal call to prayer, but a declaration of Islamic control over a territory."
In defending Timothy, the Tories appear to be all over the place.
"Q: [From Peter Walker from the Guardian] Yesterday you backed what Nick Timothy said about the Ramadan event in Trafalgar Square. What was your objection to it? Yesterday your party said it was a segregation matter. This morning the party chair, Kevin Hollinrake, said it was a general point about prayer in public. But in an article this morning Timothy said this was a specific point about Islam. What is the party’s position?
Badenoch says they are both right.
She says the Tories believe in freedom of religion.
But this debate which Nick is having is not about freedom of religion. It is about how religion is expressed in a shared public space, and whether those expressions fit within the norms of British culture." [Post edited 21 Mar 10:29]
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:33 - Mar 20 with 649 views | EddyJ |
Dislike of organised religion, particularly the more extreme elements of it, is a perfectly sensible view point. Religion is a cause of mass division and suffering and a means to control people.
Britain, along with most of developed countries, has been trending towards atheism for decades but there has been a worry uptick of theism in the past few years. Mass immigration from religious countries and a Christian-right backlash against it both risk derailing the positive direction we were moving in.
I dislike religious promotion of any type in public. I find it slightly more acceptable for things like Christmas, which are at least now celebrated as secular cultural artefacts - a result of a millenium of Christianity. |  | | |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:52 - Mar 20 with 582 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:24 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
Oh have a word with yourself.
The Great Depression of 1929 caused a lot of financial hardship for the German population which Hitler took advantage of. They went (Nazi Party) went from being a fringe party to winning 37.3% of the vote, making them the largest party in 1932 and effectively becoming a dictator in 1933.
All the above in four years - that’s very quick.
And he did it by making Jews and foreigners the scapegoats - sound familiar?
By having influential wealthy backers - sound familiar?
Seeing ordinary commentators make excuses for them -sound familiar?
Making ordinary people make excuses for their own behaviour and making antisemitism normalised - sound familiar?
Add in Muslims to the Jewish population and the historical parallels are quite striking to hate-preachers Farage rise
Edit - apologies to Guthram and the other historians on here for massively oversimplifying the above. [Post edited 20 Mar 17:29]
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TBF I think it can be argued that he is right – the rise wasn't quick if you consider that the party had been around since 1920, and although banned in 1923, effectively continued in the shape of the National Socialist Freedom Movement (which won seats in the Reichstag in elections in 1924), before reforming as the Nazi Party and winning seats again in the 1928 election. It took 12 years for them to gain any sort of major traction. |  | | |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 18:03 - Mar 20 with 563 views | MattinLondon |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:52 - Mar 20 by Clapham_Junction |
TBF I think it can be argued that he is right – the rise wasn't quick if you consider that the party had been around since 1920, and although banned in 1923, effectively continued in the shape of the National Socialist Freedom Movement (which won seats in the Reichstag in elections in 1924), before reforming as the Nazi Party and winning seats again in the 1928 election. It took 12 years for them to gain any sort of major traction. |
Depends how you measure it but I’d argue that if we were to agree on 12 years than that is still very quick to go from nowhere to being a dictator for all of Germany.
Sometimes it’s taken me that long just to buy new socks. [Post edited 20 Mar 18:04]
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 18:25 - Mar 20 with 545 views | Whos_blue |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 18:03 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
Depends how you measure it but I’d argue that if we were to agree on 12 years than that is still very quick to go from nowhere to being a dictator for all of Germany.
Sometimes it’s taken me that long just to buy new socks. [Post edited 20 Mar 18:04]
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In much the same way that the nazi party went through a couple of iterations over a number of years, the same might be argued that reform were pretty much also the Brexit party and UKIP before that.
Just to be clear. I'm not making a direct correlation between the nazi party and reform, merely pointing out how long they've been about in various guises. |  |
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 18:58 - Mar 20 with 470 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:24 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
Oh have a word with yourself.
The Great Depression of 1929 caused a lot of financial hardship for the German population which Hitler took advantage of. They went (Nazi Party) went from being a fringe party to winning 37.3% of the vote, making them the largest party in 1932 and effectively becoming a dictator in 1933.
All the above in four years - that’s very quick.
And he did it by making Jews and foreigners the scapegoats - sound familiar?
By having influential wealthy backers - sound familiar?
Seeing ordinary commentators make excuses for them -sound familiar?
Making ordinary people make excuses for their own behaviour and making antisemitism normalised - sound familiar?
Add in Muslims to the Jewish population and the historical parallels are quite striking to hate-preachers Farage rise
Edit - apologies to Guthram and the other historians on here for massively oversimplifying the above. [Post edited 20 Mar 17:29]
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It took Hitler 13 years to get into power after starting as an informer for the army against the German Workers Party before becoming a convert shortly thereafter. |  |
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:04 - Mar 20 with 447 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 18:03 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
Depends how you measure it but I’d argue that if we were to agree on 12 years than that is still very quick to go from nowhere to being a dictator for all of Germany.
Sometimes it’s taken me that long just to buy new socks. [Post edited 20 Mar 18:04]
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It took Starmer just 5 years after becoming an MP to become leader of the opposition and only a further 4 years to become PM. 9 years.
Even quicker for Sunak. Elected an MP in 2015, PM by 2022. 7 years. | |
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:19 - Mar 20 with 417 views | MattinLondon |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:04 - Mar 20 by GlasgowBlue |
It took Starmer just 5 years after becoming an MP to become leader of the opposition and only a further 4 years to become PM. 9 years.
Even quicker for Sunak. Elected an MP in 2015, PM by 2022. 7 years. |
And? My point being that 12 years to destroying the entire democratic apparatus of a major power is pretty quick. [Post edited 20 Mar 19:20]
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:27 - Mar 20 with 394 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:19 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
And? My point being that 12 years to destroying the entire democratic apparatus of a major power is pretty quick. [Post edited 20 Mar 19:20]
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reusersfreekicks posted that Hitler rose to power quite quickly. And your point was that 12 years is very quick to go from nowhere to being a dictator for all of Germany
Those were the points I was answering. His rise wasn't quick. It took him a long time to be elected. He demolished democracy within 6 months though.
All of this was following on from another poster suggesting that Reform's lead in the polls after just two years was remarkable. Unlike Hitler, Farage isn't in power and I doubt he ever will be.
If he does become PM though, his rise will have been over 30 years. And I doubt he would be able to demolish democracy in the UK within six months. [Post edited 20 Mar 19:35]
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 21:07 - Mar 20 with 332 views | JackNorthStand |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 17:24 - Mar 20 by MattinLondon |
Oh have a word with yourself.
The Great Depression of 1929 caused a lot of financial hardship for the German population which Hitler took advantage of. They went (Nazi Party) went from being a fringe party to winning 37.3% of the vote, making them the largest party in 1932 and effectively becoming a dictator in 1933.
All the above in four years - that’s very quick.
And he did it by making Jews and foreigners the scapegoats - sound familiar?
By having influential wealthy backers - sound familiar?
Seeing ordinary commentators make excuses for them -sound familiar?
Making ordinary people make excuses for their own behaviour and making antisemitism normalised - sound familiar?
Add in Muslims to the Jewish population and the historical parallels are quite striking to hate-preachers Farage rise
Edit - apologies to Guthram and the other historians on here for massively oversimplifying the above. [Post edited 20 Mar 17:29]
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It took Hitler 14 years to rise to power. This isn’t a debate, it is fact. You have gone off on a tangent there. | | | |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 21:12 - Mar 20 with 312 views | JackNorthStand |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 19:27 - Mar 20 by GlasgowBlue |
reusersfreekicks posted that Hitler rose to power quite quickly. And your point was that 12 years is very quick to go from nowhere to being a dictator for all of Germany
Those were the points I was answering. His rise wasn't quick. It took him a long time to be elected. He demolished democracy within 6 months though.
All of this was following on from another poster suggesting that Reform's lead in the polls after just two years was remarkable. Unlike Hitler, Farage isn't in power and I doubt he ever will be.
If he does become PM though, his rise will have been over 30 years. And I doubt he would be able to demolish democracy in the UK within six months. [Post edited 20 Mar 19:35]
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Firstly, respect to you for your posts on this thread in relation to my comment and considering what is rightrather than who is right.
To be clear, as you have said, I didn’t say Farage personally ( or Hitler ). I said it’s astonishing that a new political party that is only 2 years old has over a quarter of the vote ( if there were to be an election tomorrow ).
You are correct on Farages 30 year political career, plus he has already been a politician ( MEP ) [Post edited 20 Mar 21:16]
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| Islamophobia plain and simple on 02:05 - Mar 21 with 203 views | Kievthegreat |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 21:12 - Mar 20 by JackNorthStand |
Firstly, respect to you for your posts on this thread in relation to my comment and considering what is rightrather than who is right.
To be clear, as you have said, I didn’t say Farage personally ( or Hitler ). I said it’s astonishing that a new political party that is only 2 years old has over a quarter of the vote ( if there were to be an election tomorrow ).
You are correct on Farages 30 year political career, plus he has already been a politician ( MEP ) [Post edited 20 Mar 21:16]
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Reform is the continuation of Brexit Party. As an organisation it is 7 years old. It was also renamed to Reform in 2021, so even if you went from just when it was called reform, it's at least 5 years old. |  | | |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 09:49 - Mar 21 with 122 views | JackNorthStand |
| Islamophobia plain and simple on 02:05 - Mar 21 by Kievthegreat |
Reform is the continuation of Brexit Party. As an organisation it is 7 years old. It was also renamed to Reform in 2021, so even if you went from just when it was called reform, it's at least 5 years old. |
Thanks for sharing Kiev. | | | |
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