| Two-tier policing? 20:06 - Jun 4 with 4787 views | StokieBlue |
As the investigation into the conduct of Hampshire police rightly continues after the horrible policing around the death of Nowak, some other things are coming to light which don't look great for the narrative pushed by Farage in his emergency speech and in the HoC.
"For the last year data was available, Hampshire’s officers were 5.1 times more likely to stop and search someone black than a white person. The average disproportionality rate in England and Wales was 3.8 times."
"The racial disparity has increased in recent years in Hampshire, with black people 4.8 times more likely to be stopped than a white person in 2024-5, up from 4.1 times in 2023-4. The force has also increased its use of stop and search, up from 12,000 two years earlier."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
Before anyone starts, this isn't politicising the horrible events that have happened, it's using evidence to highlight that the incitement and narrative that Farage and others are spinning is nonsense. Lessons will have to be learnt and changes will have to be made but to claim it's an anti-white bias simply isn't true when one looks at the evidence.
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| Two-tier policing? on 20:12 - Jun 4 with 2609 views | WeirdFishes |
I don’t think Farage or the typical reform voter has too much care for facts. |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 23:03 - Jun 4 with 2339 views | reusersfreekicks |
The leaders of the racists know that but they also know their knuckle dragging supporters will believe whatever they are told |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 23:13 - Jun 4 with 2313 views | wkj |
My mate Neil from the pub reckons it is, so I'm going to have to go along with that unfortunately. |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 07:40 - Jun 5 with 2038 views | StokieBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 20:12 - Jun 4 by WeirdFishes |
I don’t think Farage or the typical reform voter has too much care for facts. |
Your point has pretty much been confirmed by the two posters who didn't like my post but refused to engage with the evidence or content.
SB [Post edited 5 Jun 7:40]
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| Two-tier policing? on 08:49 - Jun 5 with 1947 views | TownieRob |
A young lad has died and there are serious questions being asked about the actions of Hampshire Police and for many, including myself, those questions deserve proper answers.
The stop and search figures you've quoted may well be correct (I'll trust they are for this dicussion), but statistics do work both ways. If we're going to discuss disproportionality in policing, then we also have to be willing to discuss disproportionality in offending. You can't rely on one set of figures whilst dismissing another. That said, neither statistic really gets to the heart of this particular case as there are no black people involved here.
For me, the main question still is, did Hampshire Police fail this young man, and if so, why? |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 08:55 - Jun 5 with 1916 views | StokieBlue |
| Two-tier policing? on 08:49 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
A young lad has died and there are serious questions being asked about the actions of Hampshire Police and for many, including myself, those questions deserve proper answers.
The stop and search figures you've quoted may well be correct (I'll trust they are for this dicussion), but statistics do work both ways. If we're going to discuss disproportionality in policing, then we also have to be willing to discuss disproportionality in offending. You can't rely on one set of figures whilst dismissing another. That said, neither statistic really gets to the heart of this particular case as there are no black people involved here.
For me, the main question still is, did Hampshire Police fail this young man, and if so, why? |
Those are different points to what I raised though.
I have agreed that things must be done to investigate why this happened and ensure it doesn't happen again. My point is the narrative pushed by Farage and others to incite hate across the country doesn't actually bear up to any real scrutiny when one examines the evidence.
Disagree that the statistic isn't relevant, Farage is pushing a narrative that white people are treated more harshly which simply isn't correct. In fact it's still completely the opposite to what they are pushing in the general case.
SB | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:22 - Jun 5 with 1857 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Two-tier policing? on 08:49 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
A young lad has died and there are serious questions being asked about the actions of Hampshire Police and for many, including myself, those questions deserve proper answers.
The stop and search figures you've quoted may well be correct (I'll trust they are for this dicussion), but statistics do work both ways. If we're going to discuss disproportionality in policing, then we also have to be willing to discuss disproportionality in offending. You can't rely on one set of figures whilst dismissing another. That said, neither statistic really gets to the heart of this particular case as there are no black people involved here.
For me, the main question still is, did Hampshire Police fail this young man, and if so, why? |
The point is that the answers here have nothing to do with the claim of two tier policing, which is a purposely divisive lie.
This man would have died regardless of what the police did. The police attended a scene they were told was one where the other guy was the victim and it was dark. Like most police they were doubtless jaded and cynical, having heard complaints of injury from every other person they arrest.
More care should have been taken. But the cynical opportunistic claim of some anti white racism for political leverage is utterly disgusting. Stop it. | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:24 - Jun 5 with 1846 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 08:55 - Jun 5 by StokieBlue |
Those are different points to what I raised though.
I have agreed that things must be done to investigate why this happened and ensure it doesn't happen again. My point is the narrative pushed by Farage and others to incite hate across the country doesn't actually bear up to any real scrutiny when one examines the evidence.
Disagree that the statistic isn't relevant, Farage is pushing a narrative that white people are treated more harshly which simply isn't correct. In fact it's still completely the opposite to what they are pushing in the general case.
SB |
I absolutely agree the case needs investigating and that enormous lessons may need to be learned. I also agree that if people are making claims about anti-white policing, then those claims need evidence too. We can't have a free for all where people on either side simply pick the data that supports their position whilst ignoring everything else.
I understand the point you're making, but I'm not sure those Hampshire stop and search figures actually prove Farage is wrong. The numbers state that Black people are stopped and searched more frequently than White people in Hampshire. Whether that's justified, unjustified, data-driven or discriminatory is a separate discussion.
My point is simply that those figures don't tell us why Hampshire Police acted as they did in this particular tragic case. It feels like we're trying to answer a very specific question with a broad statistic | | | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:33 - Jun 5 with 1803 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:22 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
The point is that the answers here have nothing to do with the claim of two tier policing, which is a purposely divisive lie.
This man would have died regardless of what the police did. The police attended a scene they were told was one where the other guy was the victim and it was dark. Like most police they were doubtless jaded and cynical, having heard complaints of injury from every other person they arrest.
More care should have been taken. But the cynical opportunistic claim of some anti white racism for political leverage is utterly disgusting. Stop it. |
Excellent Post | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:34 - Jun 5 with 1800 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:24 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
I absolutely agree the case needs investigating and that enormous lessons may need to be learned. I also agree that if people are making claims about anti-white policing, then those claims need evidence too. We can't have a free for all where people on either side simply pick the data that supports their position whilst ignoring everything else.
I understand the point you're making, but I'm not sure those Hampshire stop and search figures actually prove Farage is wrong. The numbers state that Black people are stopped and searched more frequently than White people in Hampshire. Whether that's justified, unjustified, data-driven or discriminatory is a separate discussion.
My point is simply that those figures don't tell us why Hampshire Police acted as they did in this particular tragic case. It feels like we're trying to answer a very specific question with a broad statistic |
I don't think anyone is specifically trying to answer that very specific question. Or sidetrack from a huge issue and clearly one which needs delving deeply into.
But many, backed by Farage, seem to be of the opinion that there is a problem in police treating different races differently in the name of equality of outcome or what ever the language was. When the insinuation is that white people are discriminated against. Therefore surely it is very pertinent that they seem to be massively doing that with stop and search against black people, but that doesn't seem to be any problem whatsoever with those same people. |  | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:38 - Jun 5 with 1767 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:22 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
The point is that the answers here have nothing to do with the claim of two tier policing, which is a purposely divisive lie.
This man would have died regardless of what the police did. The police attended a scene they were told was one where the other guy was the victim and it was dark. Like most police they were doubtless jaded and cynical, having heard complaints of injury from every other person they arrest.
More care should have been taken. But the cynical opportunistic claim of some anti white racism for political leverage is utterly disgusting. Stop it. |
You are correct, the original findings suggested there was nothing that could have been done. Will be interesting if this finding remains the same upon furhter investigation. However, I would hope you can agree that it's still a terrible look when the footage appears to show no immediate care being given.
I've not claimed anti-white racism or two-tier policing. I've simply questioned whether the statistics being quoted actually answer the questions being asked about this case. That seems perfectly fair? | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:39 - Jun 5 with 1765 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:24 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
I absolutely agree the case needs investigating and that enormous lessons may need to be learned. I also agree that if people are making claims about anti-white policing, then those claims need evidence too. We can't have a free for all where people on either side simply pick the data that supports their position whilst ignoring everything else.
I understand the point you're making, but I'm not sure those Hampshire stop and search figures actually prove Farage is wrong. The numbers state that Black people are stopped and searched more frequently than White people in Hampshire. Whether that's justified, unjustified, data-driven or discriminatory is a separate discussion.
My point is simply that those figures don't tell us why Hampshire Police acted as they did in this particular tragic case. It feels like we're trying to answer a very specific question with a broad statistic |
You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:43 - Jun 5 with 1747 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 08:49 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
A young lad has died and there are serious questions being asked about the actions of Hampshire Police and for many, including myself, those questions deserve proper answers.
The stop and search figures you've quoted may well be correct (I'll trust they are for this dicussion), but statistics do work both ways. If we're going to discuss disproportionality in policing, then we also have to be willing to discuss disproportionality in offending. You can't rely on one set of figures whilst dismissing another. That said, neither statistic really gets to the heart of this particular case as there are no black people involved here.
For me, the main question still is, did Hampshire Police fail this young man, and if so, why? |
disproportionality in offending, plus differences in age distribution across ethnic groups (criminality is greater in the relatively young) and geographical distribution of criminality within the county relative to ethnicity (criminality and ethnic groups are distributed unevenly).
i find it disturbing that the police publish a statistic labelled "disproportionality" without taking any of the above into account. if you take demographic, geographic and crime incidence factors into account it may not be disproportionate at all. the casual use of an emotive label by the police on what is a very crude and uncorrected figure is strange. "difference" would be clearer than "disproportionate". |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:45 - Jun 5 with 1728 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:39 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show |
he's trying to discuss a complex and multi-dimensional topic whereas you're trying to shut any complexity down. poor show. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:45 - Jun 5 with 1733 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:38 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
You are correct, the original findings suggested there was nothing that could have been done. Will be interesting if this finding remains the same upon furhter investigation. However, I would hope you can agree that it's still a terrible look when the footage appears to show no immediate care being given.
I've not claimed anti-white racism or two-tier policing. I've simply questioned whether the statistics being quoted actually answer the questions being asked about this case. That seems perfectly fair? |
So you say that the stop and search *could* be justified based on the end result for the police and or crime. What about a system that potentially treats races differently in others ways based on the end result? You can't spit your dummy out about reverse racism for one and also full chestedly support the other with being slightly hypocritical, in my view. | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:50 - Jun 5 with 1710 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:34 - Jun 5 by Axeldalai_lama |
I don't think anyone is specifically trying to answer that very specific question. Or sidetrack from a huge issue and clearly one which needs delving deeply into.
But many, backed by Farage, seem to be of the opinion that there is a problem in police treating different races differently in the name of equality of outcome or what ever the language was. When the insinuation is that white people are discriminated against. Therefore surely it is very pertinent that they seem to be massively doing that with stop and search against black people, but that doesn't seem to be any problem whatsoever with those same people. |
I'm happy to discuss facts and figures, debate the point and hear other perspectives and clearly there are groups that are overrepresented in stop-and-search statistics AND offending statistics, but I'm struggling to see how stop-and-search statistics involving Black people prove that race wasn't a factor in this case? | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:50 - Jun 5 with 1710 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:39 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show |
This.
There is absolutely nothing to base the two tier claim on here, but you are asking people to treat it as a serious possibility.
Contrast farages reaction to the Sarah everard killing. By an actual policeman. Where he said it was really important not to over react and turn it into something about all men... | |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:52 - Jun 5 with 1697 views | DanTheMan |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:50 - Jun 5 by redrickstuhaart |
This.
There is absolutely nothing to base the two tier claim on here, but you are asking people to treat it as a serious possibility.
Contrast farages reaction to the Sarah everard killing. By an actual policeman. Where he said it was really important not to over react and turn it into something about all men... |
For me, if we're focusing on Farage's reaction to the two scenarios is where the issue is.
Where Sarah Everard was murdered, there was a call for calm and not to blame all men or policeman.
But the complete opposite happens in this case.
It's very clear as to why this is. |  |
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| Two-tier policing? on 09:56 - Jun 5 with 1666 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:45 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
he's trying to discuss a complex and multi-dimensional topic whereas you're trying to shut any complexity down. poor show. |
And as usual you are seeking to give credence to far right narratives | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:57 - Jun 5 with 1655 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:39 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
You are trying to be subtle but are still open to the Farage agenda of using this incident to stoke up hatred and division.
Poor show |
I don't think that's a fair reading of what I've written at all as I've explicitly said that claims of anti-white policing need evidence, that the case needs investigating and that lessons need to be learned if mistakes were made.
I don't believe questioning the relevance the statistic presented in this context proves a particular conclusion or agenda. It's simply discussing the evidence being presented. | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:58 - Jun 5 with 1634 views | lowhouseblue |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:56 - Jun 5 by reusersfreekicks |
And as usual you are seeking to give credence to far right narratives |
and you're pretending that chanting "nothing to see here" will make it all go away. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Two-tier policing? on 10:00 - Jun 5 with 1631 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:50 - Jun 5 by TownieRob |
I'm happy to discuss facts and figures, debate the point and hear other perspectives and clearly there are groups that are overrepresented in stop-and-search statistics AND offending statistics, but I'm struggling to see how stop-and-search statistics involving Black people prove that race wasn't a factor in this case? |
Aren't you deliberately missing the point again? No one is saying on this actual one off specific case that there wasn't issues potentially with race and treating people differently based upon it.
But that was theoretically based on outcome, that needs looking into and investigating, again as people have said. The absolute commonality between the two is that any individual stop and search by the police is the same thing as you are complaining about in this case, obviously with vastly different horrific results on this one occasion. Black people should be treated x and stopped more, potential victims of racism should be treated y and helped more, or whatever.
You cannot extropalte that white people are being treated differently and badly based on one individual tragic case, and not do the same about black people when it is clearly happening again and again and again via stop and search. Both things might be right or wrong, but they are based on the same chain of thought. | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:00 - Jun 5 with 1612 views | TownieRob |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:45 - Jun 5 by Axeldalai_lama |
So you say that the stop and search *could* be justified based on the end result for the police and or crime. What about a system that potentially treats races differently in others ways based on the end result? You can't spit your dummy out about reverse racism for one and also full chestedly support the other with being slightly hypocritical, in my view. |
I think you're putting words in my mouth a bit there. I've never said the stop and search figures are justified, neither have I said they're unjustified. In fact I've specifically said that's a separate discussion. | | | |
| Two-tier policing? on 10:02 - Jun 5 with 1594 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Two-tier policing? on 09:45 - Jun 5 by lowhouseblue |
he's trying to discuss a complex and multi-dimensional topic whereas you're trying to shut any complexity down. poor show. |
This is how he discussed it before:
"The same last words as George Floyd.
I expect to see players taking the knee before kick-off this season. If the principle is the same, then surely the response should be too." | | | |
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