| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law 18:33 - Jul 12 with 1740 views | bluelagos |
For those not following, I understand the Home secretary had been quite unhelpful in trying to carve out an opt out for the duty of candour for the security services.
Whether the prospect of a new boss is what changed her mind, or whether Starmer was firm....will have to wait for the memoirs in 20 years time I guess.
But either way, finally the Labour Govt is passing the bill, in full, with out any exemptions for any public servants.
Well done Mr Byrne, Mr Burnham and Sir Keir Starmer. The country will be a better place for the new law, criminalising behaviours like the disgusting cover up perpetrated by the SYP and repeated by so many of their cheer leaders to deflect from the truth about how the police killed 97 innocent football fans.
Shame on every one of them...
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:35 - Jul 12 with 1592 views | vapour_trail |
Lagos, I know you have skin in the game here, and I have the utmost respect for your previous sharing of information in this issue.
I do have a question.
What difference do you think this makes by putting it in the statute books.
If someone is going to lie, they’re going to lie, right? How does this help? I have zero trust in the police in this country, and I don’t expect this law to change that. |  |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:43 - Jul 12 with 1557 views | Whos_blue |
Agreed.
I was very pleased to read this today.
BBC News - Hillsborough Law set to be approved by MPs before summer break - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art
A long time coming and the vibes last week weren't too positive it would pass before the summer recess. I just hope it has the effect of ensuring future Bettisons et al are never able to peddle lies again with impunity. [Post edited 12 Jul 19:45]
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| "Look, I don't wanna be the same as everybody else. That's why I'm a Mod, see?" |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:00 - Jul 12 with 1499 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:35 - Jul 12 by vapour_trail |
Lagos, I know you have skin in the game here, and I have the utmost respect for your previous sharing of information in this issue.
I do have a question.
What difference do you think this makes by putting it in the statute books.
If someone is going to lie, they’re going to lie, right? How does this help? I have zero trust in the police in this country, and I don’t expect this law to change that. |
If they lie now, it's become 'Perjury', punishable by prison time. |  |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:13 - Jul 12 with 1476 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:35 - Jul 12 by vapour_trail |
Lagos, I know you have skin in the game here, and I have the utmost respect for your previous sharing of information in this issue.
I do have a question.
What difference do you think this makes by putting it in the statute books.
If someone is going to lie, they’re going to lie, right? How does this help? I have zero trust in the police in this country, and I don’t expect this law to change that. |
So without the new law, public servants can lie with impunity at a public inquiry, just as many of the SYP did in misleading the Taylor inquiry about the circumstances around Hillsborough.
The new law was originally drafted by 3 lawyers who represented the families Elkan Abrahamson, Pete Wetherby and the late Mark George. One of the key elements is the duty of candour. It will be a criminal offence to mislead a public inquiry / inquest which currently isn't the case.
So will some people still lie? Possibly. But if they know they could face jail for that act then they should be more likely to be honest.
Of course no law prohibiting an act guarantees no one will break it. But breaking the new law will literally means that cover ups like that perpetrated by the SYP will be criminalised.
And the context around the delays are that the security services wanted to be exempt and campaigners were determined there should be no exemptions. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:18 - Jul 12 with 1465 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:43 - Jul 12 by Whos_blue |
Agreed.
I was very pleased to read this today.
BBC News - Hillsborough Law set to be approved by MPs before summer break - BBC News
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/art
A long time coming and the vibes last week weren't too positive it would pass before the summer recess. I just hope it has the effect of ensuring future Bettisons et al are never able to peddle lies again with impunity. [Post edited 12 Jul 19:45]
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Yep, Bettison is an absolute piece of sh1t.
He wrote the Wain report and removed all references to the Freeman tactic. A real example of an act that should have led to his serving time as by that ommission he misled Lord Taylor.
Why he is held with such contempt by those who have closely followed the police cover up.over decades. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:20 - Jul 12 with 1461 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:00 - Jul 12 by Cheltenham_Blue |
If they lie now, it's become 'Perjury', punishable by prison time. |
Sort of. The new law is a bit wider but yeah, previously there was no duty of candour for public officials and now there will be, backed up with criminal prosecutions for those break the new law. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:46 - Jul 12 with 1369 views | vapour_trail |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:13 - Jul 12 by bluelagos |
So without the new law, public servants can lie with impunity at a public inquiry, just as many of the SYP did in misleading the Taylor inquiry about the circumstances around Hillsborough.
The new law was originally drafted by 3 lawyers who represented the families Elkan Abrahamson, Pete Wetherby and the late Mark George. One of the key elements is the duty of candour. It will be a criminal offence to mislead a public inquiry / inquest which currently isn't the case.
So will some people still lie? Possibly. But if they know they could face jail for that act then they should be more likely to be honest.
Of course no law prohibiting an act guarantees no one will break it. But breaking the new law will literally means that cover ups like that perpetrated by the SYP will be criminalised.
And the context around the delays are that the security services wanted to be exempt and campaigners were determined there should be no exemptions. |
Thanks mate. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:59 - Jul 12 with 1328 views | BasingstokeBlue |
If only Mr Byrne could spell, he might attract some credibility. |  |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 07:46 - Jul 13 with 1188 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 20:59 - Jul 12 by BasingstokeBlue |
If only Mr Byrne could spell, he might attract some credibility. |
Yeah, imagine being Ian Byrne MP
Imagine being voted into parliament by your constituents after Labour Starmites tried to get you deselected.
Imagine setting up an APPG in parliament and getting this new law addressing police corruption through parliament.
Imagine actually being a Hillsborough survivor (As Ian is) and getting to be in parliament to see a new law that criminalises actions like we saw from the SYP.
Imagine knowing that every single person who repeated the police lies has been shown up for what they were, nothing but prejudiced individuals choosing to repeat lies as it fitted their own prejudiced views.
Imagine being an individual choosing to have a dig at Ian Byrne on the very day his hard work has meant we are changing the law and making the country a better place....
Enjoy your day Basingstoke Blue. I know I will and I know Ian Byrne will :-)
Edited rather ironically, for spelling. [Post edited 13 Jul 8:21]
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 09:08 - Jul 13 with 1109 views | EdwardStone |
Congratulations and huge gratitude to all those who have made this new law happen.....and shame on those who worked so diligently to try to prevent it
I get that the Police/authorities do a difficult job and in most instances do it well
But the thing that stinks for me is that this new law was ever needed
Society rewards the Police well for their endeavours, good salary and excellent pension.
I always imagined that the quid pro quo would be that they always were straight and honest with us.... because we reward them well
Setting out to deliberately mislead and spread a flagrantly false narrative is so clearly wrong....product of a difficient moral compass, yet the very officers who dreamt up and carried this out continued to suckle at the public purse teat
So my overall reaction to this news is relief that this legislation has been passed coupled with immense sadness that it was ever needed [Post edited 13 Jul 9:12]
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 09:18 - Jul 13 with 1066 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 09:08 - Jul 13 by EdwardStone |
Congratulations and huge gratitude to all those who have made this new law happen.....and shame on those who worked so diligently to try to prevent it
I get that the Police/authorities do a difficult job and in most instances do it well
But the thing that stinks for me is that this new law was ever needed
Society rewards the Police well for their endeavours, good salary and excellent pension.
I always imagined that the quid pro quo would be that they always were straight and honest with us.... because we reward them well
Setting out to deliberately mislead and spread a flagrantly false narrative is so clearly wrong....product of a difficient moral compass, yet the very officers who dreamt up and carried this out continued to suckle at the public purse teat
So my overall reaction to this news is relief that this legislation has been passed coupled with immense sadness that it was ever needed [Post edited 13 Jul 9:12]
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Yep, when people learned that those involved in the cover up hadn't committed a crime, it was quite staggering. Not because they hadn't been involved in a cover up, it was because a cover up wasn't illegal.
But the positive is that campaigners took on the challenge to change the law and under Andy Burnham that change in law will finally arrive.
A good day for the country that will be that little bit better for the new law. The law is called Hillsborough Law but it relates to anyone seeking the truth in any public inquiry. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 09:46 - Jul 13 with 997 views | grow_our_own |
A family friend, who was freakishly 6ft 3" age 15, managed to climb / be pulled up to the upper tier in the Leppings Lane end and escape the horrific crush. Next time such a calamity happens, police will go down if they try to cover it up. Let that be a deterrence. Fantastic news. Can't imagine this would have happened under a "law and order" Tory govt. Law and order is not longer skewed in favour of the police and other authorities with whom critical information is entrusted. Hillsborough is one of the most egregious scandals in Britain in my lifetime. Hope the families who weren't as lucky can find some closure now. All their efforts over decades, all the disappointments and dead-ends, every time they started again when botched enquiries made it seem hopeless, it was all worth it. We all owe them a debt of gratitude. |  | | |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:31 - Jul 13 with 944 views | ITFC_Forever |
It still boggles my mind that this law is required.
A legal process should mean you tell the truth anyway. But some people are self-preserving pieces of scum who don’t / won’t allow a minor thing like the truth stand in their way.
There’s numerous examples of why this law is sadly required as the greed / corruption/ self-preservation of people / organisations is more important to some people than the truth to the victims and their families.
Hillsborough. Orgreave. Battle of the Beanfield. Grenfell. Infected Blood. Postmasters. And they’re just the ones that come readily to mind. |  |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 14:31 - Jul 13 with 840 views | bluebudgie |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:31 - Jul 13 by ITFC_Forever |
It still boggles my mind that this law is required.
A legal process should mean you tell the truth anyway. But some people are self-preserving pieces of scum who don’t / won’t allow a minor thing like the truth stand in their way.
There’s numerous examples of why this law is sadly required as the greed / corruption/ self-preservation of people / organisations is more important to some people than the truth to the victims and their families.
Hillsborough. Orgreave. Battle of the Beanfield. Grenfell. Infected Blood. Postmasters. And they’re just the ones that come readily to mind. |
Yes, this law is definitely welcome. I was part of the Infected Blood Public Inquiry, and a duty of candour is definitely needed, as civil servants, consultants, and ministers of all parties were very economical with the truth and some have downright lied. If this law had been in place, I don't think the inquiry would have gone on so long, with many dying before the end .
Andy Burnham gave evidence at the inquiry, and credit where credits due, he has been on the side of those infected and affected by the contaminated blood disaster. I just hope that when he becomes PM, he carries on his support because the majority of those involved are still awaiting their compensation and claimants are still dying without seeing justice served.
All political parties should hold their heads in shame for the historical cover-up. |  | | |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 15:30 - Jul 13 with 797 views | EdwardStone |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 14:31 - Jul 13 by bluebudgie |
Yes, this law is definitely welcome. I was part of the Infected Blood Public Inquiry, and a duty of candour is definitely needed, as civil servants, consultants, and ministers of all parties were very economical with the truth and some have downright lied. If this law had been in place, I don't think the inquiry would have gone on so long, with many dying before the end .
Andy Burnham gave evidence at the inquiry, and credit where credits due, he has been on the side of those infected and affected by the contaminated blood disaster. I just hope that when he becomes PM, he carries on his support because the majority of those involved are still awaiting their compensation and claimants are still dying without seeing justice served.
All political parties should hold their heads in shame for the historical cover-up. |
The wait for a decent settlement is heart-breaking
Justice delayed is justice denied | | | |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 09:48 - Jul 14 with 631 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 19:35 - Jul 12 by vapour_trail |
Lagos, I know you have skin in the game here, and I have the utmost respect for your previous sharing of information in this issue.
I do have a question.
What difference do you think this makes by putting it in the statute books.
If someone is going to lie, they’re going to lie, right? How does this help? I have zero trust in the police in this country, and I don’t expect this law to change that. |
Well worth a listen for those unsure how it will work
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:12 - Jul 14 with 608 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 07:46 - Jul 13 by bluelagos |
Yeah, imagine being Ian Byrne MP
Imagine being voted into parliament by your constituents after Labour Starmites tried to get you deselected.
Imagine setting up an APPG in parliament and getting this new law addressing police corruption through parliament.
Imagine actually being a Hillsborough survivor (As Ian is) and getting to be in parliament to see a new law that criminalises actions like we saw from the SYP.
Imagine knowing that every single person who repeated the police lies has been shown up for what they were, nothing but prejudiced individuals choosing to repeat lies as it fitted their own prejudiced views.
Imagine being an individual choosing to have a dig at Ian Byrne on the very day his hard work has meant we are changing the law and making the country a better place....
Enjoy your day Basingstoke Blue. I know I will and I know Ian Byrne will :-)
Edited rather ironically, for spelling. [Post edited 13 Jul 8:21]
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I pressed the upvote arrow 100 times, but it only went up by one!
Anybody opposing this, or making snide digs at those who have had to face down the Security Services to get it through, reveal which side they are on.
It's the side with all the bent coppers and rotten apples. And th fact that it has taken this long, and that Ian Byrne etc al have faced so much resistance also demonstrates that bent coppers and rotten apples are more widespread than we are led to believe, and are a very convenient feature of the system for those in power. | | | |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:17 - Jul 14 with 601 views | bluelagos |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:12 - Jul 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I pressed the upvote arrow 100 times, but it only went up by one!
Anybody opposing this, or making snide digs at those who have had to face down the Security Services to get it through, reveal which side they are on.
It's the side with all the bent coppers and rotten apples. And th fact that it has taken this long, and that Ian Byrne etc al have faced so much resistance also demonstrates that bent coppers and rotten apples are more widespread than we are led to believe, and are a very convenient feature of the system for those in power. |
Can add Suffolk MP Nick Timothy to the rather long list of those standing in the way of doing the right thing. | |
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:27 - Jul 14 with 570 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 10:31 - Jul 13 by ITFC_Forever |
It still boggles my mind that this law is required.
A legal process should mean you tell the truth anyway. But some people are self-preserving pieces of scum who don’t / won’t allow a minor thing like the truth stand in their way.
There’s numerous examples of why this law is sadly required as the greed / corruption/ self-preservation of people / organisations is more important to some people than the truth to the victims and their families.
Hillsborough. Orgreave. Battle of the Beanfield. Grenfell. Infected Blood. Postmasters. And they’re just the ones that come readily to mind. |
They are the big ones where the systemic nature of the cover up has been laid bare by the persistence of witnesses, lawyers and journalists, usually at great cost to themselves.
But there are the individual cases, too, where people have been in contact with the police in their final minutes.
The case of the unlawful killing of Ian Tomlinson by the Police Officer Simon Harwood is particularly illuminating about the way Police Misconduct is handled culturally within UK Police Forces. He had 10 previous allegations against him, and had resigned as a Police Officer to avoid a disciplinary hearing, but then was re-employed first as a civilian worker, and then as a Police Officer again.
The specific Hillsborough Law is an incredible achievement, and will hopefully be part of a significant cultural shift where Police Officers who commit criminal or negligent acts can't hide behind the expectation of silence, or outright fabrication, from colleagues, and where disciplinary processes embed candour over protecting the reputation of the organisation.
Edit to add link and an illustrative quote on Harwood's lies at Ian Tomlinson's inquest:
Harwood was involved in several confrontations on the day of Tomlinson's death. He had been on duty since 5 am, assigned as a driver, and had spent most of the day in his vehicle. While parked on Cornhill in the evening, he saw a man write "all cops are bastards" on the side of another police van, and left his vehicle to attempt to arrest the man. The suspect resisted arrest and the suspect's head collided with a van door, triggering a response from the crowd that made Harwood believe it was unsafe to return to his vehicle.[53][54] He told the inquest that he had been hit on the head, had fallen over, lost his baton, had been attacked by the crowd and feared for his life, but later acknowledged this had not happened.[53][54]
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
and the footnote numbers [53] [54]are sourced at the bottom of that article. [Post edited 14 Jul 10:36]
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| Welcome update on Hillsborough Law on 18:56 - Jul 14 with 457 views | bluelagos |
Andy Burnham absolutely nails it.
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