| This is genuinely horrific 19:38 - Aug 23 with 10184 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
Remember in the good old days when all you had to worry about kids getting into was drugs or 'The Word' with Terry Christian?
https://www.theguardian.com/me |  |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 17:56 - Aug 24 with 1375 views | DJR |
| This is genuinely horrific on 14:06 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
Looks like I have missed some fun this morning! damn work.
Social media companies have some responsibility, but my actuarial life means I have to put it out there that the accident hump (a peak in mortality between ages 16-25) existed well before social media
As ever, it's not straightforward as to where the responsibility sits. But a combination of all causes mentioned with individual being at the top. |
I forgot to pick up on the suggestion in your post that you might be an actuary, which brings to mind the running joke that a friend (a chartered accountant) and I have had for many years, namely.
"Actuaries are the people who found accountancy too exciting."
I have also come across the following.
"How does an actuary liven up a party?
He leaves."
Having said all this, I like maths so would probably have enjoyed being an actuary. And I think many would have found my particular area of the legal profession (drafting legislation) boring. [Post edited 25 Aug 14:05]
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| This is genuinely horrific on 18:18 - Aug 24 with 1303 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 17:56 - Aug 24 by DJR |
I forgot to pick up on the suggestion in your post that you might be an actuary, which brings to mind the running joke that a friend (a chartered accountant) and I have had for many years, namely.
"Actuaries are the people who found accountancy too exciting."
I have also come across the following.
"How does an actuary liven up a party?
He leaves."
Having said all this, I like maths so would probably have enjoyed being an actuary. And I think many would have found my particular area of the legal profession (drafting legislation) boring. [Post edited 25 Aug 14:05]
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Haha!
We’ve got some other jokes at the expense of accountants, but my reputation on here doesn’t seem to be able to go any lower, so not this evening! |  | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 19:51 - Aug 24 with 1228 views | Ryorry |
| This is genuinely horrific on 16:54 - Aug 24 by positivity |
the same article also says that saddington had several social media posts of joyriding.
bit of a chicken and egg here, probably never be able to prove a causal link or an absence of a causal link.
don't personally see the harm in removing posts like this from social media. reduce glorification of scummy behaviour where you can |
From Cleveland police -
"At the current time, there is no evidence to indicate that filming of the activities that took place on Friday night and Saturday morning has taken place for the purposes of TikTok.
Four of the occupants of the Passat had previous police convictions."
"Makai Saddington, 18, had also been convicted of assaulting police officers, had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment, and was caught with a knife and a class C drug."
From BBC Verify -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
In another, separate article, they point out that removing such videos from TikTok and other social media does not remove them from the internet generally, where they can still be found. |  |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 20:24 - Aug 24 with 1186 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 19:51 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
From Cleveland police -
"At the current time, there is no evidence to indicate that filming of the activities that took place on Friday night and Saturday morning has taken place for the purposes of TikTok.
Four of the occupants of the Passat had previous police convictions."
"Makai Saddington, 18, had also been convicted of assaulting police officers, had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment, and was caught with a knife and a class C drug."
From BBC Verify -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
In another, separate article, they point out that removing such videos from TikTok and other social media does not remove them from the internet generally, where they can still be found. |
It's normally better to totally disregard BBC Verify. It doesn't have a great strike rate | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 21:32 - Aug 24 with 1144 views | StokieBlue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 20:24 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
It's normally better to totally disregard BBC Verify. It doesn't have a great strike rate |
Please provide evidence to support this assertion.
You say a lot yet you provide very little evidence for what you say.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 21:41 - Aug 24 with 1119 views | OldFootball |
| This is genuinely horrific on 20:24 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
It's normally better to totally disregard BBC Verify. It doesn't have a great strike rate |
What's worrying is that the rest of the BBC doesn't verify like this. |  | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 21:50 - Aug 24 with 1102 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 21:32 - Aug 24 by StokieBlue |
Please provide evidence to support this assertion.
You say a lot yet you provide very little evidence for what you say.
SB |
There is a significant body of 'evidence' that BBC verify either makes direct mistakes (e.g. coverage of Bangladeshi riots) or how they cover it (e.g. sources of verification).
Are you a lawyer by any chance? I only ask because evidence is objective and factually based, something that is not really applicable in the context of political, sociological or economic opinion. | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 22:10 - Aug 24 with 1061 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 21:50 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
There is a significant body of 'evidence' that BBC verify either makes direct mistakes (e.g. coverage of Bangladeshi riots) or how they cover it (e.g. sources of verification).
Are you a lawyer by any chance? I only ask because evidence is objective and factually based, something that is not really applicable in the context of political, sociological or economic opinion. |
Any particular evidence? I’d be interested to see what they’re getting wrong. |  |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 22:14 - Aug 24 with 1053 views | StokieBlue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 21:50 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
There is a significant body of 'evidence' that BBC verify either makes direct mistakes (e.g. coverage of Bangladeshi riots) or how they cover it (e.g. sources of verification).
Are you a lawyer by any chance? I only ask because evidence is objective and factually based, something that is not really applicable in the context of political, sociological or economic opinion. |
You've not posted an opinion though. You've posted an assertion and thus you should provide evidence.
You say there is a "significant" body of evidence and that they don't have a great "strike rate". If this is the case then you should easily be able to post both examples of that significant body and a number showing their strike rate. It looks like you've once again cherry picked a couple of examples without context or references and used it to try and poison the well on an entire source.
My profession is irrelevant, what is relevant is that I am bored of you posting and then saying it's an opinion so you don't need to provide evidence or cherry picking the evidence you do engage with. Debating doesn't work that way and it's certainly not the honest debating you proclaim to want to engage in.
SB | |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 22:17 - Aug 24 with 1040 views | naa |
| This is genuinely horrific on 20:41 - Aug 23 by stonojnr |
Ai already does scan it, but ai isnt foolproof and ai cant stop humans doing stupid things because they believe theyll get social media kudos for it anyway.These platforms make shed loads of money from completely mundane stuff posted all the time. They arent reliant on this stuff at all however many 'experts' you'll here claiming they monetise it to stay profitable. But they cant stop it completely by themselves.
we as a society used to be able to stop people doing stupid things before social media was invented, because we used to enforce boundaries on it.
Maybe we should be questioning why no one called out their behaviour before this, because this wasn't their first horse in the rodeo of life.
But nah blame tiktok right
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That is a remarkably naive post about social media companies.
Suggest you do a cursory bit of reading. |  | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 22:35 - Aug 24 with 1017 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 19:51 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
From Cleveland police -
"At the current time, there is no evidence to indicate that filming of the activities that took place on Friday night and Saturday morning has taken place for the purposes of TikTok.
Four of the occupants of the Passat had previous police convictions."
"Makai Saddington, 18, had also been convicted of assaulting police officers, had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment, and was caught with a knife and a class C drug."
From BBC Verify -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
In another, separate article, they point out that removing such videos from TikTok and other social media does not remove them from the internet generally, where they can still be found. |
removing them from the highest traffic sites is key.
you'll always be able to find niche sites on the dark web, but videos glorifying reckless driving shouldn't be on places like twitter and tik-tok with such a wide user base.
did the offending lead to the social media posts or did the posts feed into the offending? whatever, i think it's better if such dangerous posts are taken down from mass media sites | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 22:37 - Aug 24 with 1009 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 20:24 - Aug 24 by balcombeblue |
It's normally better to totally disregard BBC Verify. It doesn't have a great strike rate |
that's nonsense, what is bbc verify's strike rate?
you can't just post stuff like that without evidence, that's no better than gb news | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 00:28 - Aug 25 with 942 views | Ryorry |
| This is genuinely horrific on 22:35 - Aug 24 by positivity |
removing them from the highest traffic sites is key.
you'll always be able to find niche sites on the dark web, but videos glorifying reckless driving shouldn't be on places like twitter and tik-tok with such a wide user base.
did the offending lead to the social media posts or did the posts feed into the offending? whatever, i think it's better if such dangerous posts are taken down from mass media sites |
I agree that such content should be totally removed from all social media sites, regulations should be in place for that, and the owners of those sites should be accountable if they don't comply.
I disagree that doing so is all that needs to be done to solve the problem. It's like trying to kill pernicious weeds by strimming off their leaves so they have no longer have access to the sunlight which helps them grow. What's really needed is dealing with the plants at the seeds & roots stage - ie education, opportunities & what goes on in the minds of young people | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 09:49 - Aug 25 with 816 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 00:28 - Aug 25 by Ryorry |
I agree that such content should be totally removed from all social media sites, regulations should be in place for that, and the owners of those sites should be accountable if they don't comply.
I disagree that doing so is all that needs to be done to solve the problem. It's like trying to kill pernicious weeds by strimming off their leaves so they have no longer have access to the sunlight which helps them grow. What's really needed is dealing with the plants at the seeds & roots stage - ie education, opportunities & what goes on in the minds of young people |
no-one's said that it's the entirety of the answer, it's a large part an one that should be relatively easy for the companies to enact.
obviously there's loads more that can and should be done, but go for the low hanging fruit and make things a bit better | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 10:47 - Aug 25 with 752 views | soupytwist |
| This is genuinely horrific on 19:51 - Aug 24 by Ryorry |
From Cleveland police -
"At the current time, there is no evidence to indicate that filming of the activities that took place on Friday night and Saturday morning has taken place for the purposes of TikTok.
Four of the occupants of the Passat had previous police convictions."
"Makai Saddington, 18, had also been convicted of assaulting police officers, had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment, and was caught with a knife and a class C drug."
From BBC Verify -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/liv
In another, separate article, they point out that removing such videos from TikTok and other social media does not remove them from the internet generally, where they can still be found. |
Last night BBC ten o'clock News listed the previous convictions of those who had them and had died in the incident.
They did not mention that Saddington had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment. I noticed that because I'd already read it on the BBC website. Seems odd to mention some but not others. |  | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 11:55 - Aug 25 with 702 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 10:47 - Aug 25 by soupytwist |
Last night BBC ten o'clock News listed the previous convictions of those who had them and had died in the incident.
They did not mention that Saddington had pleaded guilty to racially aggravated harassment. I noticed that because I'd already read it on the BBC website. Seems odd to mention some but not others. |
They probably didn’t have time to read out all their convictions! | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 12:20 - Aug 25 with 665 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 11:55 - Aug 25 by Swansea_Blue |
They probably didn’t have time to read out all their convictions! |
Quite. It does seem that in this case the TikTok influence is negligible | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:30 - Aug 25 with 652 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:20 - Aug 25 by balcombeblue |
Quite. It does seem that in this case the TikTok influence is negligible |
i don't think you can narrow it down to one thing, that kind of jumping to conclusions isn't helpful.
what's clear is that he has posted tik toks of dangerous driving, he has been involved in organised crime, he was convicted of racism.
which came first or influenced the others isn't clear, but it's all part of a patchwork of causation. getting the videos off social media would be a good place to start | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 12:40 - Aug 25 with 625 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:30 - Aug 25 by positivity |
i don't think you can narrow it down to one thing, that kind of jumping to conclusions isn't helpful.
what's clear is that he has posted tik toks of dangerous driving, he has been involved in organised crime, he was convicted of racism.
which came first or influenced the others isn't clear, but it's all part of a patchwork of causation. getting the videos off social media would be a good place to start |
Agreed, as my earlier posts regarding analysis of the accident hump say. This is a phenomenon that has existed since mortality data has been recorded. Pinpointing exact causes of death is straightforward, but not generally how they came to be | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:42 - Aug 25 with 617 views | bartyg |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:40 - Aug 25 by balcombeblue |
Agreed, as my earlier posts regarding analysis of the accident hump say. This is a phenomenon that has existed since mortality data has been recorded. Pinpointing exact causes of death is straightforward, but not generally how they came to be |
Did you actually post any studies you had read on this phenomenon? I would be interested in reading. |  |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 12:54 - Aug 25 with 594 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:40 - Aug 25 by balcombeblue |
Agreed, as my earlier posts regarding analysis of the accident hump say. This is a phenomenon that has existed since mortality data has been recorded. Pinpointing exact causes of death is straightforward, but not generally how they came to be |
agreed, reduce harm where you can | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 13:13 - Aug 25 with 568 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:42 - Aug 25 by bartyg |
Did you actually post any studies you had read on this phenomenon? I would be interested in reading. |
https://www.actuaries.org.uk/s
Of course!
This is the link to the Heliman & Pollard paper. They derived a model for modelling of all age mortality which was a decent fit to the observed data. The curve of mortality fits an extended Gompertz-Makeham formula.
A couple of interesting things from the paper that I remember as an Actuarial student. The curve is massively more pronounced for males (something like a factor of 5). But is also narrower!
The cause of the hump is not examined in the paper from memory. Remember that the cause of death is usually one of the easiest aspects of data to analyse. Getting to the cause of the cause is much much harder.
Given the prevalence of the hump in every population that has ever lived (or at least for which we have data), social media isn't likely to be anything more than negligible. I don't want to be accused of having no evidence, but we could probably tell that from data observation. We can't say it with certainty, but the paucity of data would be the main reason. I have looked at so many other similar studies and discussion over the years balancing genetic v societal causes. Genetics sort of wins, because of the prevalence of the curve (e.g before social media or even cars! existed).
I think that's why I am so anti-banning as it's the only thing governments often come out with. Interestingly, based on data alone, stop and search is highly correlated with reduced crime levels. My instinct from modelling would suggest the causal effect is pretty strong. Anyone want to open that one up? | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 13:20 - Aug 25 with 553 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:54 - Aug 25 by positivity |
agreed, reduce harm where you can |
Sorry, a bit more......These percentages where just chucked back from AI and are from the ONS:
Suicide and Injury of Undetermined Intent: 27.7%
Accidental Poisoning (predominantly Drug Overdoses)12.4%
Land Transport Accidents (Road Fatalities):9.4%Cancer (Neoplasms): 9.4%
Homicide and Probable Homicide: 6.9%
Other External/Accidental Causes: 6.1%
All Remaining Natural Causes Combined: 28.1%
Normally finishes by age 30, e.g. a return to 'normal'. | | | |
| This is genuinely horrific on 13:52 - Aug 25 with 516 views | positivity |
| This is genuinely horrific on 13:20 - Aug 25 by balcombeblue |
Sorry, a bit more......These percentages where just chucked back from AI and are from the ONS:
Suicide and Injury of Undetermined Intent: 27.7%
Accidental Poisoning (predominantly Drug Overdoses)12.4%
Land Transport Accidents (Road Fatalities):9.4%Cancer (Neoplasms): 9.4%
Homicide and Probable Homicide: 6.9%
Other External/Accidental Causes: 6.1%
All Remaining Natural Causes Combined: 28.1%
Normally finishes by age 30, e.g. a return to 'normal'. |
such a waste.
reduce harm where you can | |
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| This is genuinely horrific on 17:17 - Aug 25 with 411 views | balcombeblue |
| This is genuinely horrific on 12:42 - Aug 25 by bartyg |
Did you actually post any studies you had read on this phenomenon? I would be interested in reading. |
I have spent a bit more time looking at effects of social media and direct harm this afternoon and it's developing but seems quite loose. Advancements like cars getting safer has flattened the curve for sure, but age/population adjusting numbers is very difficult.
Mental health has been worsening, but again there is a subjectivity in that assessment. Suicide rates in the traditional accident hump have not changed much since 2010, expect for the pandemic years. However, the rates are increasing between ages 25-35. It's all difficult to draw much out from.
Regarding BBC Verify, I have no similar stats. Except for the high profile errors of course. There is a long list of published BBC corrections, but it's hard to draw any stats from them. The testimony of departed BBC employees is damning and. I read Robin Aitken's book a couple of years ago on this subject. | | | |
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