Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Forum index | Previous Thread | Next thread
For those of you with a Second World War interest 22:01 - Mar 19 with 3139 viewsPlums

This is a cracking photo of RAF Woodbridge in 1945

It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Poll: Which recent triallist should we have signed?

9
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 00:06 - Mar 20 with 3009 viewsChurchman

Thank you for posting this. A really interesting picture.

The Halifax was an interesting aircraft. Produced by Handley Page, it went into service late 1940. It was the second of Britain’s four engined bombers, the first being the Stirling, the most famous being the Lancaster. Halifax’s initial performance was disappointing, not least because it was underpowered, had too much drag, too smaller wing (Air Ministry spec) and control issues.

Height was everything and certainly Harris, who loathed Handley Page had nothing but scorn for it and the Short Stirling. However, it provided a sizeable contribution to Bomber Command and in 43, the B Mk3 came out. Perspex nose, Hercules radial engines that suited the wing, bigger, squared tail many of its problems were resolved and performance was close to the Lancasters. Strong with a large bomb bay, nice to fly, crews liked them.

The pic is of A Mk7s. Not too many were produced as it used slightly less powerful engines. It was was a good aircraft for glider towing though and plenty powerful for the job. Overall, the Halifax was a bit of a bridesmaid to the Lancaster, but made a big contribution to the war effort.

The Hamilcar gliders: boy, the bravery and skill of the blokes flying those. A very dangerous job. They were designed for one trip which tells you all you need to know!
2
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 01:22 - Mar 20 with 2952 viewsBrads

Great spot.
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 07:43 - Mar 20 with 2821 viewsPlums

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 00:06 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Thank you for posting this. A really interesting picture.

The Halifax was an interesting aircraft. Produced by Handley Page, it went into service late 1940. It was the second of Britain’s four engined bombers, the first being the Stirling, the most famous being the Lancaster. Halifax’s initial performance was disappointing, not least because it was underpowered, had too much drag, too smaller wing (Air Ministry spec) and control issues.

Height was everything and certainly Harris, who loathed Handley Page had nothing but scorn for it and the Short Stirling. However, it provided a sizeable contribution to Bomber Command and in 43, the B Mk3 came out. Perspex nose, Hercules radial engines that suited the wing, bigger, squared tail many of its problems were resolved and performance was close to the Lancasters. Strong with a large bomb bay, nice to fly, crews liked them.

The pic is of A Mk7s. Not too many were produced as it used slightly less powerful engines. It was was a good aircraft for glider towing though and plenty powerful for the job. Overall, the Halifax was a bit of a bridesmaid to the Lancaster, but made a big contribution to the war effort.

The Hamilcar gliders: boy, the bravery and skill of the blokes flying those. A very dangerous job. They were designed for one trip which tells you all you need to know!


Loads of good info there, thank you. I'm working with a guy who is a bit of a Halifax fan, his grandad was a mechanic on them. He recently discovered a small toolkit with 'Rolls Royce' stamped on it which he's trying to identify. As you say, it's often missed as the focus is on the Lancaster but did a lot of heavy lifting. There was a photo of a bare metal one knocking about on Twitter the other day, I'll try and find it.

As for the glider pilots and the poor sods who had to climb in the back of them with no sight of where they were going, incredibly brave people. It's amazing how many survived but also the high numbers of tragedies such as those killed during Operation Husky. I can't recall which book tells the story of the Glider Pilot Regiment but it's well worth a read.

It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Poll: Which recent triallist should we have signed?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:03 - Mar 20 with 2797 viewsWestStanderLaLaLa

Couple of ground shots here https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210679

Poll: Your favourite thing about THAT goal?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:24 - Mar 20 with 2757 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 07:43 - Mar 20 by Plums

Loads of good info there, thank you. I'm working with a guy who is a bit of a Halifax fan, his grandad was a mechanic on them. He recently discovered a small toolkit with 'Rolls Royce' stamped on it which he's trying to identify. As you say, it's often missed as the focus is on the Lancaster but did a lot of heavy lifting. There was a photo of a bare metal one knocking about on Twitter the other day, I'll try and find it.

As for the glider pilots and the poor sods who had to climb in the back of them with no sight of where they were going, incredibly brave people. It's amazing how many survived but also the high numbers of tragedies such as those killed during Operation Husky. I can't recall which book tells the story of the Glider Pilot Regiment but it's well worth a read.


Ta. The skill of those who landed gliders on the triangle patch of land at Pegasus Bridge on DDay were something else too. The casualty rate for glider pilots wasn’t the best. Astonishingly men.

There is a compete Halifax in the Yorkshire Air Museum. It’s a rebuild from various aircraft but is complete and can run its magnificent engines. It’s painted as 158 Squadron’s ‘Friday the 13th’. I must see it one day.

There’s W1048 in the Hendon RAF museum as it was when it was pulled from a lake. I know it’s all original, but personally I’d like to see it rebuilt so children in particular can see what it is. It looks rather forlorn and wrecked. There’s another Halifax in Canada preserved too.

The toolkit sounds absolutely fascinating. Mk1s and 2s in all their variants used Merlins of course. It’d be interesting to know what it belonged to. Maybe the preservation people at Duxford or Biggin Hill know.

It was a great aircraft, the Halifax. With that large fuselage and big bomb bay you could carry all sorts of stuff and of course people - it was used to drop agents etc too.

Of the other important Bomber Command aircraft, there are no complete Stirlings or Whitleys left. I know they weren’t the best or the most attractive. But they made a big contribution at the beginning and throughout the war and there ought to be at least one of each preserved for future generations. We don’t preserve our heritage properly.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2023 8:28]
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:38 - Mar 20 with 2713 viewsGuthrum

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:24 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Ta. The skill of those who landed gliders on the triangle patch of land at Pegasus Bridge on DDay were something else too. The casualty rate for glider pilots wasn’t the best. Astonishingly men.

There is a compete Halifax in the Yorkshire Air Museum. It’s a rebuild from various aircraft but is complete and can run its magnificent engines. It’s painted as 158 Squadron’s ‘Friday the 13th’. I must see it one day.

There’s W1048 in the Hendon RAF museum as it was when it was pulled from a lake. I know it’s all original, but personally I’d like to see it rebuilt so children in particular can see what it is. It looks rather forlorn and wrecked. There’s another Halifax in Canada preserved too.

The toolkit sounds absolutely fascinating. Mk1s and 2s in all their variants used Merlins of course. It’d be interesting to know what it belonged to. Maybe the preservation people at Duxford or Biggin Hill know.

It was a great aircraft, the Halifax. With that large fuselage and big bomb bay you could carry all sorts of stuff and of course people - it was used to drop agents etc too.

Of the other important Bomber Command aircraft, there are no complete Stirlings or Whitleys left. I know they weren’t the best or the most attractive. But they made a big contribution at the beginning and throughout the war and there ought to be at least one of each preserved for future generations. We don’t preserve our heritage properly.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2023 8:28]


The Glider Pilots were not originally supposed to fight (once on the ground, their job was done). But in Major Gemeral Urquhart's account of the battle of Arnhem, he tells of how circumstances forced them to be used as infantry and how well they performed.

Good Lord! Whatever is it?
Poll: McCarthy: A More Nuanced Poll
Blog: [Blog] For Those Panicking About the Lack of Transfer Activity

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:11 - Mar 20 with 2578 viewsPlums

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:24 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Ta. The skill of those who landed gliders on the triangle patch of land at Pegasus Bridge on DDay were something else too. The casualty rate for glider pilots wasn’t the best. Astonishingly men.

There is a compete Halifax in the Yorkshire Air Museum. It’s a rebuild from various aircraft but is complete and can run its magnificent engines. It’s painted as 158 Squadron’s ‘Friday the 13th’. I must see it one day.

There’s W1048 in the Hendon RAF museum as it was when it was pulled from a lake. I know it’s all original, but personally I’d like to see it rebuilt so children in particular can see what it is. It looks rather forlorn and wrecked. There’s another Halifax in Canada preserved too.

The toolkit sounds absolutely fascinating. Mk1s and 2s in all their variants used Merlins of course. It’d be interesting to know what it belonged to. Maybe the preservation people at Duxford or Biggin Hill know.

It was a great aircraft, the Halifax. With that large fuselage and big bomb bay you could carry all sorts of stuff and of course people - it was used to drop agents etc too.

Of the other important Bomber Command aircraft, there are no complete Stirlings or Whitleys left. I know they weren’t the best or the most attractive. But they made a big contribution at the beginning and throughout the war and there ought to be at least one of each preserved for future generations. We don’t preserve our heritage properly.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2023 8:28]


My colleague tells me the Halifax at Yorkshire Air Museum (ha has a mug from there which I spotted on his desk - it got us talking) has some 'fabricated' parts, including a piece of drain and a hard hat to form an outlet!

I have a bit of a soft spot for the humble Blenheim. The story of the Duxford one is incredible, I'd love to see it fly.

It's 106 miles to Portman Road, we've got a full tank of gas, half a round of Port Salut, it's dark... and we're wearing blue tinted sunglasses.
Poll: Which recent triallist should we have signed?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:54 - Mar 20 with 2529 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:11 - Mar 20 by Plums

My colleague tells me the Halifax at Yorkshire Air Museum (ha has a mug from there which I spotted on his desk - it got us talking) has some 'fabricated' parts, including a piece of drain and a hard hat to form an outlet!

I have a bit of a soft spot for the humble Blenheim. The story of the Duxford one is incredible, I'd love to see it fly.


The Elvington Halifax is definitively a composite of parts, principally from three aircraft plus wings from a Handley Page Hastings. I need to see it at some point.

The Bristol Blenheim is an interesting aeroplane. The attached story is of the Duxford example and how the aircraft came about.

https://www.aircraftrestorationcompany.com/blenheim

The problem with it was that as a fast, light bomber it started off being quicker than fighters in service but by the time it became operational, the Hurricane, Spitfire and Bf109 were coming into service rendering it as meat on the table unless heavily escorted. However, it was better than the terrible Battle and there was nothing else of its type.

The Blenheim served everywhere in a variety of roles throughout the war. Principally as a light bomber but it was also an early night fighter and heavy day fighter with a gun pack underneath. It also was genesis for the Beaufort torpedo Bomber, which though underpowered was good and more notably the hugely successful Beaufighter. One of my favourite aeroplanes.

It is good there’s a flying example of the Bristol Blenheim. It’s a tribute to those who built them served in them and lost their lives.

Another interesting type of the time currently being rebuilt is the Handley Page Hampden. I’m looking forward to seeing it. My dad’s cousin was killed in one serving on 50 Squadron in 1941.
0
Login to get fewer ads

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:18 - Mar 20 with 2502 viewsHARRY10

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:38 - Mar 20 by Guthrum

The Glider Pilots were not originally supposed to fight (once on the ground, their job was done). But in Major Gemeral Urquhart's account of the battle of Arnhem, he tells of how circumstances forced them to be used as infantry and how well they performed.


That was one of the characteristics of British soldiers on D-Day.

Their view that once they had 'done their bit' they were not expected to take any further part. That is qualified by many being in combat for the first time, and having it drilled into them what their allotted task was.

The gliders were no more than flying sheds, such was the material used. Pulled off the ground by another aircraft, then let go when over the target, and dependent upon the pilot to land them safely.

I'm not sure it was bravery as they did not have a choice (those in the back) but it was still one hell of, what must have been, a truly terrifying experience. One that was followed by intense fighting, and the subsequent almost year of attritional fighting.

An awful, awful way for humanity to behave.
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:44 - Mar 20 with 2464 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:18 - Mar 20 by HARRY10

That was one of the characteristics of British soldiers on D-Day.

Their view that once they had 'done their bit' they were not expected to take any further part. That is qualified by many being in combat for the first time, and having it drilled into them what their allotted task was.

The gliders were no more than flying sheds, such was the material used. Pulled off the ground by another aircraft, then let go when over the target, and dependent upon the pilot to land them safely.

I'm not sure it was bravery as they did not have a choice (those in the back) but it was still one hell of, what must have been, a truly terrifying experience. One that was followed by intense fighting, and the subsequent almost year of attritional fighting.

An awful, awful way for humanity to behave.


Glider pilots came from all over the place, were part of the of the army but trained by the RAF. Their infantry training was minimal, but their skill was amazing as was the responsibility they had. A glider is a one go at it job. You can’t go round again and the Germans didn’t make it easy by planting a lot of stakes in the ground to deter this kind of assault.

Airborne forces were new to the British army, Churchill having been impressed by Kurt Student’s forces in the fall of France, Belgium, Holland and later Crete.

British soldiers on DDay and beyond were as brave as any other. The usual mixture of high to lesser quality. They have received a bad press from people like Max Hastings and the Americans who don’t even recognise the British were present, but it is largely unjustified.

I’ve just finished Peter Hart’s book Burning Steel about the Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. Add in Holland’s books Brothers in Arms, DDay and Beevor’s book on DDay and you get a more balanced picture.
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:27 - Mar 20 with 2411 viewsHARRY10

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:44 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Glider pilots came from all over the place, were part of the of the army but trained by the RAF. Their infantry training was minimal, but their skill was amazing as was the responsibility they had. A glider is a one go at it job. You can’t go round again and the Germans didn’t make it easy by planting a lot of stakes in the ground to deter this kind of assault.

Airborne forces were new to the British army, Churchill having been impressed by Kurt Student’s forces in the fall of France, Belgium, Holland and later Crete.

British soldiers on DDay and beyond were as brave as any other. The usual mixture of high to lesser quality. They have received a bad press from people like Max Hastings and the Americans who don’t even recognise the British were present, but it is largely unjustified.

I’ve just finished Peter Hart’s book Burning Steel about the Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. Add in Holland’s books Brothers in Arms, DDay and Beevor’s book on DDay and you get a more balanced picture.


Yes, I have listened to all those via Audible.co.uk

My point about bravery was not to decry what they did, but to point out that most had no choice. Bravery suggests a choice

Hastings can be a dick at times. ignoring at D-Day how more experienced of many of the German soldiers were, combined with the propaganda they were fed.

You may be confusing Hollywood with serious US historians.

The early SAS (1941) used paratroopers, and they continued to do so. The Germans never used paratroops after the slaughter in Crete. Not sure where German paratroopers were used in France (1940).

The problem in D-day and after was that not all decisions were taken on a purely military basis. Montgomery and Patton were both over blown egotists, all too often more concern with personal prestige than military gain.

Wiser heads would have used more targeted bombing in Normandy - destruction of Panzer Lehr. And later the Falaise gap and concentrated on cutting off supplies to the German Army as well.

Scant regard had been given to German tactics before D-Dya and so the allies were often out fought as well as out thought. Trying to push inland merely pushed the Germans beyond the range of offshore guns.

That would have played to the allies strengths rather than fight on the Germans times too often

Hindsight, eh ?
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:55 - Mar 20 with 2390 viewsDeano69

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 08:24 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Ta. The skill of those who landed gliders on the triangle patch of land at Pegasus Bridge on DDay were something else too. The casualty rate for glider pilots wasn’t the best. Astonishingly men.

There is a compete Halifax in the Yorkshire Air Museum. It’s a rebuild from various aircraft but is complete and can run its magnificent engines. It’s painted as 158 Squadron’s ‘Friday the 13th’. I must see it one day.

There’s W1048 in the Hendon RAF museum as it was when it was pulled from a lake. I know it’s all original, but personally I’d like to see it rebuilt so children in particular can see what it is. It looks rather forlorn and wrecked. There’s another Halifax in Canada preserved too.

The toolkit sounds absolutely fascinating. Mk1s and 2s in all their variants used Merlins of course. It’d be interesting to know what it belonged to. Maybe the preservation people at Duxford or Biggin Hill know.

It was a great aircraft, the Halifax. With that large fuselage and big bomb bay you could carry all sorts of stuff and of course people - it was used to drop agents etc too.

Of the other important Bomber Command aircraft, there are no complete Stirlings or Whitleys left. I know they weren’t the best or the most attractive. But they made a big contribution at the beginning and throughout the war and there ought to be at least one of each preserved for future generations. We don’t preserve our heritage properly.
[Post edited 20 Mar 2023 8:28]


Operation Deadstick, truly remarkable. An amazing feat that quite honestly defies physics as well as incredible courage.

Poll: Best Tin of Chocolates

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:59 - Mar 20 with 2374 viewsThisIsMyUsername

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:44 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Glider pilots came from all over the place, were part of the of the army but trained by the RAF. Their infantry training was minimal, but their skill was amazing as was the responsibility they had. A glider is a one go at it job. You can’t go round again and the Germans didn’t make it easy by planting a lot of stakes in the ground to deter this kind of assault.

Airborne forces were new to the British army, Churchill having been impressed by Kurt Student’s forces in the fall of France, Belgium, Holland and later Crete.

British soldiers on DDay and beyond were as brave as any other. The usual mixture of high to lesser quality. They have received a bad press from people like Max Hastings and the Americans who don’t even recognise the British were present, but it is largely unjustified.

I’ve just finished Peter Hart’s book Burning Steel about the Fife & Forfar Yeomanry. Add in Holland’s books Brothers in Arms, DDay and Beevor’s book on DDay and you get a more balanced picture.


How can anyone dismiss the contribution of the British on D-Day, or more so, pretend that they weren't even there? Without the British holding the eastern flank around Pegasus bridge, half of the entire invasion area (including 40% of the landing beaches which were taken by... the British...) would have been in jeopardy.

Sounds like typical American Hollywood-ism BS.

Let's also point out that the first Allied soldier to be killed on D-Day was British. And that the coxswain who drove the landing craft into the American beaches were mostly British.

Poll: Which of these events will happen the soonest?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 16:02 - Mar 20 with 2365 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:27 - Mar 20 by HARRY10

Yes, I have listened to all those via Audible.co.uk

My point about bravery was not to decry what they did, but to point out that most had no choice. Bravery suggests a choice

Hastings can be a dick at times. ignoring at D-Day how more experienced of many of the German soldiers were, combined with the propaganda they were fed.

You may be confusing Hollywood with serious US historians.

The early SAS (1941) used paratroopers, and they continued to do so. The Germans never used paratroops after the slaughter in Crete. Not sure where German paratroopers were used in France (1940).

The problem in D-day and after was that not all decisions were taken on a purely military basis. Montgomery and Patton were both over blown egotists, all too often more concern with personal prestige than military gain.

Wiser heads would have used more targeted bombing in Normandy - destruction of Panzer Lehr. And later the Falaise gap and concentrated on cutting off supplies to the German Army as well.

Scant regard had been given to German tactics before D-Dya and so the allies were often out fought as well as out thought. Trying to push inland merely pushed the Germans beyond the range of offshore guns.

That would have played to the allies strengths rather than fight on the Germans times too often

Hindsight, eh ?


Eben Emael was indeed in Belgium.

Bravery does indicate choice but often incredible acts take place because those concerned feel they have no choice at the time. Regardless of what prompts it, these people are special and what enables these people to do unimaginable things is well beyond my understanding. phenomenal people.

The Germans used parachute troops as elite infantry and special operations, but not en masse. They’d lost a huge number of Ju52s in any case. The problem with them as Arnhem proved was the lack of heavy weaponry and difficulty of support and supply. Use them well, such as DDay and Rhine and there was much to gain, despite that grade A idiot Leigh-Mallory’s doubts.

Yes, Patten and Montgomery were egotists. Montgomery promised with the DDay plan more than could be delivered on the opening phase which laid him open to criticism from the likes of Bradley and particularly Patten. But DDay was a success.

The British and Canadians were not slow in the breakout. They bore the brunt of the best of the German divisions. Something like seven of them. They were the ones that wore them down, along with the RAF and naval support. It is forgotten that the battle was well and truly over by the end of August, despite mistakes being made.

Hitler’s restrictions on German commanders, lack of air support, lack of ability to resupply meant they were chewed up. There was actually no other way of the allies doing it. Use of strategic bombers was not particularly successful in supporting the armies. It wasn’t designed to perform that function so for example while they could wipe say Caen off the map, it didn’t improve the attacking army’s situation.

Where air really worked was having complete air superiority and in ground attack. There are big debates on how effective it truly was but the fact remains the Germans couldn’t move in daylight. Tactics such as ‘cab rank’, better liaison were developed in the field. It also working in smashing transport infrastructure and degrading divisions before they even got to the battlefield.

Overall, from what I’ve read the tactics in Normandy were fine, given the terrains and the opposition which ranged from excellent to pitiful. Nothing ever goes perfectly and post DDay casualties were horrendous. Hitler didn’t care, the Allies did and that governed a lot of how we went about things, aside from the real danger for the British of running out of men.

I don’t rate Hastings. He puts too much of his own prejudices in his writing. His book on 617 provides ample evidence of that. The military dislike him intensely and they’re pretty good judges.
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 11:45 - Mar 21 with 2169 viewsHARRY10

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:59 - Mar 20 by ThisIsMyUsername

How can anyone dismiss the contribution of the British on D-Day, or more so, pretend that they weren't even there? Without the British holding the eastern flank around Pegasus bridge, half of the entire invasion area (including 40% of the landing beaches which were taken by... the British...) would have been in jeopardy.

Sounds like typical American Hollywood-ism BS.

Let's also point out that the first Allied soldier to be killed on D-Day was British. And that the coxswain who drove the landing craft into the American beaches were mostly British.


And therein lies the eternal problem

Who is dismissing the British ? An example please.

There is absolutely NO evidence of which nationality was the first killed on D-Day, if only that in the fog of war no such records are kept.

I would politely suggest that you reply to what is written, or just stick to your thoughts - rather than post as if you were replying to a comment
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 12:04 - Mar 21 with 2148 viewsThisIsMyUsername

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 11:45 - Mar 21 by HARRY10

And therein lies the eternal problem

Who is dismissing the British ? An example please.

There is absolutely NO evidence of which nationality was the first killed on D-Day, if only that in the fog of war no such records are kept.

I would politely suggest that you reply to what is written, or just stick to your thoughts - rather than post as if you were replying to a comment


'They have received a bad press from people like Max Hastings and the Americans who don’t even recognise the British were present'.

I literally posted in response to what was written in a comment.

(And re your point about lack of evidence regarding who was the first soldier killed. The available and documented evidence suggests it was a Brit. Obviously that may not be correct like you say).

Poll: Which of these events will happen the soonest?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 12:44 - Mar 21 with 2106 viewsHARRY10

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 16:02 - Mar 20 by Churchman

Eben Emael was indeed in Belgium.

Bravery does indicate choice but often incredible acts take place because those concerned feel they have no choice at the time. Regardless of what prompts it, these people are special and what enables these people to do unimaginable things is well beyond my understanding. phenomenal people.

The Germans used parachute troops as elite infantry and special operations, but not en masse. They’d lost a huge number of Ju52s in any case. The problem with them as Arnhem proved was the lack of heavy weaponry and difficulty of support and supply. Use them well, such as DDay and Rhine and there was much to gain, despite that grade A idiot Leigh-Mallory’s doubts.

Yes, Patten and Montgomery were egotists. Montgomery promised with the DDay plan more than could be delivered on the opening phase which laid him open to criticism from the likes of Bradley and particularly Patten. But DDay was a success.

The British and Canadians were not slow in the breakout. They bore the brunt of the best of the German divisions. Something like seven of them. They were the ones that wore them down, along with the RAF and naval support. It is forgotten that the battle was well and truly over by the end of August, despite mistakes being made.

Hitler’s restrictions on German commanders, lack of air support, lack of ability to resupply meant they were chewed up. There was actually no other way of the allies doing it. Use of strategic bombers was not particularly successful in supporting the armies. It wasn’t designed to perform that function so for example while they could wipe say Caen off the map, it didn’t improve the attacking army’s situation.

Where air really worked was having complete air superiority and in ground attack. There are big debates on how effective it truly was but the fact remains the Germans couldn’t move in daylight. Tactics such as ‘cab rank’, better liaison were developed in the field. It also working in smashing transport infrastructure and degrading divisions before they even got to the battlefield.

Overall, from what I’ve read the tactics in Normandy were fine, given the terrains and the opposition which ranged from excellent to pitiful. Nothing ever goes perfectly and post DDay casualties were horrendous. Hitler didn’t care, the Allies did and that governed a lot of how we went about things, aside from the real danger for the British of running out of men.

I don’t rate Hastings. He puts too much of his own prejudices in his writing. His book on 617 provides ample evidence of that. The military dislike him intensely and they’re pretty good judges.


It is not a case of 'feeling they had no choice', they did not.

You have answered your question of why mass paratroop landings failed. The Germans learnt it after the slaughter of paratroopers at Crete.

Dropping small numbers onto a specific target for a defined task can work. Dropping thousands will always be a waste.

Montgomery was not up to the job. Only through the clown Churchill sacking Auchinleck did he get the job.

The Allies were always going to win the battle of Normandy. Sadly, through political requirmemts a huge number of allied forces lost their lives. Once ashore, in purely military terms, the imperative then was for the Germans to push the allies back into the sea. This they could never do as it would mean exposing their tanks and guns to allied air and sea power.

It is not hindsight either. It was known at the time, but the allies were fearful the Russkies would not stop at the Elbe. So had to keep throwing men at the Germans in what was not far short of a Japanese banzai charge.

Allied tactics were a consequence of that political requirement and so were woeful. Though in no small part to German troops arriving from the East who had years of experience of close quarter fighting.

Holding back near to the beach would have produced the same result as the Germans ill fated attack at Mortain (Operation Luttich) whereby the Allies were able to hem the Germans in at Falaise.

It was the air power as well as the naval guns which caused far more damage in relation to loss of live. I would point you toward the fate of Panzer Lehr through strategic bombing.

In any battle it is best to play to your strengths. The Allies did not.

using your own words

"There are big debates on how effective it truly was but the fact remains the Germans couldn’t move in daylight. Tactics such as ‘cab rank’, better liaison were developed in the field. It also working in smashing transport infrastructure and degrading divisions before they even got to the battlefield. "

There are no debates, great or small. Read German accounts and it was the 'yabos' they feared. Almost a fore runner of todays drones. They would have taken decades to destroy the Germans on their own, but when used in a 'sheepdog' role they were highly effective, by ensuring the Germans were limited to where they could be and so vulnerable to bombing/shelling. The Falaise Gap demonstrating the usefulness of bombing.. The Tiger was not suited to cross country terrain, but was ideal when sat camouflaged, destroying lightly armed/amoured allied tanks/guns
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:00 - Mar 21 with 2079 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 11:45 - Mar 21 by HARRY10

And therein lies the eternal problem

Who is dismissing the British ? An example please.

There is absolutely NO evidence of which nationality was the first killed on D-Day, if only that in the fog of war no such records are kept.

I would politely suggest that you reply to what is written, or just stick to your thoughts - rather than post as if you were replying to a comment


Americans and French. Hollywood, TV, publications. Omaha Beach tends to be the focus and Patton’s view that the British were slow and cautious echos down the years.

How long did it take for there to be a memorial in Normandy for the British & Commonwealth? 77 years. The attached rather neatly sums it up, as it does what the British actually contributed on land, sea and air.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2009/06/11/reader-mail/british-contribution

The facts of history are easily distorted. An example: the British only engaged in night area bombing, the Americans attacked only military targets with the Norden bomb sight that could put a bomb in a pickle barrel.

The facts were that after the devastating losses in early daylight raids, night bombing was the only way we could attack Germany. But even these efforts were diverted to DDay build up for much of 44. It also engaged in precision raids when technology allowed with mixed results. Examples: Augsburg raid, Amiens prison, Tirpitz, Dams, uBoat pens.

The Americans might have aimed at things like ball bearing works, but if those works were in a built up area as most were, they went up too. Collateral damage. The Norden sight only worked in clear weather and the Americans operated pattern bombing in that when the bomb leader dropped his, you dropped yours. It was the only way they could do it. Oh, and over 500 B17s bombed Dresden as part of the awful Dresden raids. Deleted from history.

I think identifying who was killed first on DDay is a bit pointless as it depends on when you define DDay as starting. What I mean is that the Slapton Sands debacle pre dates DDay but an awful lot of young men sadly lost their lives. Aircrew and paratroopers shot down in the run up and the early hours of DDay? The poor blokes in the DD Shermans (Duplex Drive floating tanks) that sank?

It was all ghastly. Lucky are us that didn’t have to do this stuff.
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:04 - Mar 21 with 2068 viewsThisIsMyUsername

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:00 - Mar 21 by Churchman

Americans and French. Hollywood, TV, publications. Omaha Beach tends to be the focus and Patton’s view that the British were slow and cautious echos down the years.

How long did it take for there to be a memorial in Normandy for the British & Commonwealth? 77 years. The attached rather neatly sums it up, as it does what the British actually contributed on land, sea and air.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2009/06/11/reader-mail/british-contribution

The facts of history are easily distorted. An example: the British only engaged in night area bombing, the Americans attacked only military targets with the Norden bomb sight that could put a bomb in a pickle barrel.

The facts were that after the devastating losses in early daylight raids, night bombing was the only way we could attack Germany. But even these efforts were diverted to DDay build up for much of 44. It also engaged in precision raids when technology allowed with mixed results. Examples: Augsburg raid, Amiens prison, Tirpitz, Dams, uBoat pens.

The Americans might have aimed at things like ball bearing works, but if those works were in a built up area as most were, they went up too. Collateral damage. The Norden sight only worked in clear weather and the Americans operated pattern bombing in that when the bomb leader dropped his, you dropped yours. It was the only way they could do it. Oh, and over 500 B17s bombed Dresden as part of the awful Dresden raids. Deleted from history.

I think identifying who was killed first on DDay is a bit pointless as it depends on when you define DDay as starting. What I mean is that the Slapton Sands debacle pre dates DDay but an awful lot of young men sadly lost their lives. Aircrew and paratroopers shot down in the run up and the early hours of DDay? The poor blokes in the DD Shermans (Duplex Drive floating tanks) that sank?

It was all ghastly. Lucky are us that didn’t have to do this stuff.


For reference, when I discussed the possible first Allied soldier killed on D-Day I was referring to Lt D Brotheridge on Pegasus bridge.

Poll: Which of these events will happen the soonest?

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:39 - Mar 21 with 2002 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:04 - Mar 21 by ThisIsMyUsername

For reference, when I discussed the possible first Allied soldier killed on D-Day I was referring to Lt D Brotheridge on Pegasus bridge.


Whilst I’ve obviously read about Pegasus Bridge and remember Lt Brotheridge’s name I didn’t know that. Looking at the interweb, he certainly does seem to be regarded as the first allied soldier killed.
1
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:28 - Mar 21 with 1941 viewsPhilTWTD

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 07:43 - Mar 20 by Plums

Loads of good info there, thank you. I'm working with a guy who is a bit of a Halifax fan, his grandad was a mechanic on them. He recently discovered a small toolkit with 'Rolls Royce' stamped on it which he's trying to identify. As you say, it's often missed as the focus is on the Lancaster but did a lot of heavy lifting. There was a photo of a bare metal one knocking about on Twitter the other day, I'll try and find it.

As for the glider pilots and the poor sods who had to climb in the back of them with no sight of where they were going, incredibly brave people. It's amazing how many survived but also the high numbers of tragedies such as those killed during Operation Husky. I can't recall which book tells the story of the Glider Pilot Regiment but it's well worth a read.


My uncle was a wireless officer on a Halifax. Sadly he and his crew mates lost their lives when it collided with another Halifax.

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=NR241
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 15:08 - Mar 21 with 1906 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 14:28 - Mar 21 by PhilTWTD

My uncle was a wireless officer on a Halifax. Sadly he and his crew mates lost their lives when it collided with another Halifax.

http://www.rafcommands.com/database/serials/details.php?uniq=NR241


Sadly, collisions and accidents were not uncommon. Neither was aircraft being struck by bombs. This is a picture of B17G Silver Dollar after having its tail torn off in this way near Berlin.

https://b17flyingfortress.de/en/b17/42-37781-silver-dollar/

Survivors of such accidents, especially collisions, were usually few.

RIP your Uncle. A very brave man.
[Post edited 21 Mar 2023 19:26]
0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 17:30 - Mar 21 with 1804 viewsElephantintheRoom

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 13:00 - Mar 21 by Churchman

Americans and French. Hollywood, TV, publications. Omaha Beach tends to be the focus and Patton’s view that the British were slow and cautious echos down the years.

How long did it take for there to be a memorial in Normandy for the British & Commonwealth? 77 years. The attached rather neatly sums it up, as it does what the British actually contributed on land, sea and air.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2009/06/11/reader-mail/british-contribution

The facts of history are easily distorted. An example: the British only engaged in night area bombing, the Americans attacked only military targets with the Norden bomb sight that could put a bomb in a pickle barrel.

The facts were that after the devastating losses in early daylight raids, night bombing was the only way we could attack Germany. But even these efforts were diverted to DDay build up for much of 44. It also engaged in precision raids when technology allowed with mixed results. Examples: Augsburg raid, Amiens prison, Tirpitz, Dams, uBoat pens.

The Americans might have aimed at things like ball bearing works, but if those works were in a built up area as most were, they went up too. Collateral damage. The Norden sight only worked in clear weather and the Americans operated pattern bombing in that when the bomb leader dropped his, you dropped yours. It was the only way they could do it. Oh, and over 500 B17s bombed Dresden as part of the awful Dresden raids. Deleted from history.

I think identifying who was killed first on DDay is a bit pointless as it depends on when you define DDay as starting. What I mean is that the Slapton Sands debacle pre dates DDay but an awful lot of young men sadly lost their lives. Aircrew and paratroopers shot down in the run up and the early hours of DDay? The poor blokes in the DD Shermans (Duplex Drive floating tanks) that sank?

It was all ghastly. Lucky are us that didn’t have to do this stuff.


You’re being a tad harsh on the American air effort. It was them that destroyed the Luftwaffe as a fighting force using escort fighters to seek them out on the ground as well as the air and their efforts to target important industrial targets was pretty successful too

They also created an entire airforce, the 9th to move across Europe in tandem with land forces

in terms of rewriting history - the Dàmbusters live on in history despite drowning a few cows and slave labourers in a PR exercise - whilst the totemic raid(s) on Ploesti are conveniently forgotten.

The Americans also fine-tuned mass murder of civilians by night far more effectively than the RAF. The firebomb raid on Tokyo being a salient example. Population density 100,000 per square mile and 13 sq miles evaporated in one night, though the official death toll was downsized as the Americans were preparing to try nasty Nazis for war crimes.

Blog: The Swinging Sixty

0
For those of you with a Second World War interest on 19:10 - Mar 21 with 1740 viewsChurchman

For those of you with a Second World War interest on 17:30 - Mar 21 by ElephantintheRoom

You’re being a tad harsh on the American air effort. It was them that destroyed the Luftwaffe as a fighting force using escort fighters to seek them out on the ground as well as the air and their efforts to target important industrial targets was pretty successful too

They also created an entire airforce, the 9th to move across Europe in tandem with land forces

in terms of rewriting history - the Dàmbusters live on in history despite drowning a few cows and slave labourers in a PR exercise - whilst the totemic raid(s) on Ploesti are conveniently forgotten.

The Americans also fine-tuned mass murder of civilians by night far more effectively than the RAF. The firebomb raid on Tokyo being a salient example. Population density 100,000 per square mile and 13 sq miles evaporated in one night, though the official death toll was downsized as the Americans were preparing to try nasty Nazis for war crimes.


Paragraph 1: I am not being in the least bit harsh on the American air effort. I haven’t even commented on it, bar its contribution to Dresden and the myth that it only targeted military and industrial targets. It didn’t. As for the history of the 8th Air Force it didn’t become truly and devastatingly effective until the introduction of the Merlin engined P51 (built to a British spec and revolutionised by a British engine) in early 1944. Much of the daylight raids that year went (rightly) for oil and infrastructure- as did Bomber Command after March.

Yes the P51 gained air superiority over Europe, thanks to its range, numbers and pilot quality. But you should not forget that the best of the Luftwaffe was degraded by the Battle of Britain and by subsequent year on year erosion of effectiveness. Lack of resources and in particular training meant their pilots received a death sentence.

Paragraph 2: The 9th Air force was originally created to support operations in N Africa and worked in harmony with the RAF. In DDay and beyond, P47s in particular were brilliantly effective in degrading The German army - so were British Typhoons and other types.

Paragraph 3: The Ploesti raid is considered an overall failure. Despite the crews’ bravery the 170 odd B24s were hammered, 53 lost 55 damaged. It was flown at low level in relatively loose formation (close formation was too dangerous in a Liberator). It was heavily photographed/filmed which for the likes of me is interesting. Like the disastrous Schweinfurt raids, it was a huge learning curve for the Americans.

I presume the ‘drowning of a few cows’ swipe at 617 was your idea of a joke. I don’t find it funny, even if you get past the inaccuracy of it. As point of interest, the dams raid could never have been carried out by the Americans. Or raids on viaducts, uBoat pens and other deep structures. They didn’t have an aircraft that could carry Upkeep, Tallboy or Grand Slam.

Paragraph 4: The usual apologist ‘trying to even it up’ line. Without destroying Japan firstly by conventional bombing then by atomic bomb, I dread to think how many would have died invading Japan.

The destruction from the air of the evil that was Japan and Germany was entirely justified in my view. They started it, the Americans and ourselves finished it.
0




About Us Contact Us Terms & Conditions Privacy Cookies Online Safety Advertising
© TWTD 1995-2025