Israel turning the screw on the UN now. 08:18 - Oct 25 with 3249 views | BanksterDebtSlave | It's not just on here that you can't point out the obvious that events don't occur in a vacuum without a bunker like reaction. 27m ago07.51 BST Israel says it has refused visa to UN official to 'teach them a lesson' Israel says it has refused a visa to UN humanitarian affairs chief Martin Griffiths as a result of comments at the UN by secretary-general António Guterres. Israeli media reports that Israel’s ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan said on army radio: Due to his remarks we will refuse to issue visas to UN representatives. We have already refused a visa for under-secretary-general for humanitarian affairs Martin Griffiths. The time has come to teach them a lesson. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:45 - Oct 25 with 3173 views | noggin | 🙈🙉🙊 By order of The State of Israel. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:51 - Oct 25 with 3159 views | DJR | |  | |  |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:54 - Oct 25 with 3148 views | DJR | Interesting development. Will Starmer follow suit? The UK government has said it does not agree with the assessment of UN secretary-general António Guterres that there have been “clear violations of international humanitarian law” by Israel in Gaza, where over 5,700 civilians are reported dead since 7 October. Minister Robert Jenrick told Sky News: We don’t agree with that. If he is referring to what has happened over the course of the last two weeks, we don’t believe Israel has broken international law. There is a clear right in international law for a nation to defend itself, and that is what Israel is doing. We do want to see Israel, wherever practical — and it is immensely difficult to do — to surgically degrade and eradicate Hamas. That is what they are trying to do and we obviously hope they succeed because the world will be a better place … it will be a blessing if we can rid the world of Hamas. |  | |  |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:59 - Oct 25 with 3116 views | noggin |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:54 - Oct 25 by DJR | Interesting development. Will Starmer follow suit? The UK government has said it does not agree with the assessment of UN secretary-general António Guterres that there have been “clear violations of international humanitarian law” by Israel in Gaza, where over 5,700 civilians are reported dead since 7 October. Minister Robert Jenrick told Sky News: We don’t agree with that. If he is referring to what has happened over the course of the last two weeks, we don’t believe Israel has broken international law. There is a clear right in international law for a nation to defend itself, and that is what Israel is doing. We do want to see Israel, wherever practical — and it is immensely difficult to do — to surgically degrade and eradicate Hamas. That is what they are trying to do and we obviously hope they succeed because the world will be a better place … it will be a blessing if we can rid the world of Hamas. |
🙈🙉🙊 By order of The UK. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:05 - Oct 25 with 3094 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:45 - Oct 25 by noggin | 🙈🙉🙊 By order of The State of Israel. |
It shouldn't be too long now (may have already happened) before the secretary general is accused of holding Israel to a higher standard than other states.....and we all know what that will make him. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:05 - Oct 25 with 3091 views | noggin | So basically, Israel and the UK are refusing to accept the UN Security Council's definition of international law? [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 9:07]
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:13 - Oct 25 with 3057 views | Ryorry | A class of 10-year old school kids fro any country would be dealing with this better than "internet&Yahoo" * *reference to a post yesterday by someone whose loathing of the man appeared sufficient to prevent him from actually writing the name! (probably dictation-enabled text in reality). |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:16 - Oct 25 with 3027 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:13 - Oct 25 by Ryorry | A class of 10-year old school kids fro any country would be dealing with this better than "internet&Yahoo" * *reference to a post yesterday by someone whose loathing of the man appeared sufficient to prevent him from actually writing the name! (probably dictation-enabled text in reality). |
Although it was his UN ambassador that kicked this one off. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:23 - Oct 25 with 3010 views | Ryorry |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:16 - Oct 25 by BanksterDebtSlave | Although it was his UN ambassador that kicked this one off. |
I thought Ambassadors just act in accordance with instruction/s from above though? Or did this one act off his own bat on this occasion? |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:42 - Oct 25 with 2955 views | DJR |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:23 - Oct 25 by Ryorry | I thought Ambassadors just act in accordance with instruction/s from above though? Or did this one act off his own bat on this occasion? |
Of course it's a concerted campaign to discredit the UN, but I am not sure talking about "teaching the UN a lesson" is winning hearts and minds outside the confines of the Western governments and politicians. The furore has probably also prevented a vote on the US resolution which had been amended to include a "pause", something that Israel does not support. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 9:49]
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:52 - Oct 25 with 2900 views | Guthrum | Bunker mentality is exactly the atmosphere - and with good reason. Centuries of persecution and marginalisation in Europe, then being attacked from all sides when they finally do get their own place to live will have a lasting effect upon the national psyche. People do not expect Africans to forget about colonialism, despite that being generally mild in comparison and over a much shorter period. Neither are Israelis going to easily put that long heritage behind them. It's there in the background of their unconscious. People shouldn't be surprised that the current hard-line (in some cases, extremist) administration in Jerusalem is lashing out at any and all criticism. They are a distillation of those feelings. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:02 - Oct 25 with 2848 views | DJR |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:52 - Oct 25 by Guthrum | Bunker mentality is exactly the atmosphere - and with good reason. Centuries of persecution and marginalisation in Europe, then being attacked from all sides when they finally do get their own place to live will have a lasting effect upon the national psyche. People do not expect Africans to forget about colonialism, despite that being generally mild in comparison and over a much shorter period. Neither are Israelis going to easily put that long heritage behind them. It's there in the background of their unconscious. People shouldn't be surprised that the current hard-line (in some cases, extremist) administration in Jerusalem is lashing out at any and all criticism. They are a distillation of those feelings. |
That is very fair, and why I generally cut Israel a lot of slack, and certainly much more slack than a Jewish person I know, but I think there has to be some limit to the slack. And as I have said before I don't think Israel is behaving any worse than other Western countries have in the past. Its misfortune (if that is the right word) is that what it is doing is in the public gaze, something that did not happen in, say, Iraq. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 10:11]
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:06 - Oct 25 with 2815 views | lowhouseblue |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 09:52 - Oct 25 by Guthrum | Bunker mentality is exactly the atmosphere - and with good reason. Centuries of persecution and marginalisation in Europe, then being attacked from all sides when they finally do get their own place to live will have a lasting effect upon the national psyche. People do not expect Africans to forget about colonialism, despite that being generally mild in comparison and over a much shorter period. Neither are Israelis going to easily put that long heritage behind them. It's there in the background of their unconscious. People shouldn't be surprised that the current hard-line (in some cases, extremist) administration in Jerusalem is lashing out at any and all criticism. They are a distillation of those feelings. |
and part of the non-vacum in which this all takes place therefore is israel's essential and legitimate need for security. you can read a much longer history in those terms rather than just the events from 7th october. just as you cannot understand any of this without focusing on palestinian rights and suffering, israel's right to security is an essential component and has to be part of any solution*. the pogrom on 7th october is an illustration of that, but the history from 1948 can be read in terms of that same theme. *i obviously don't know what the solution is and the current debates and events on both sides seem to be devoid of any serious options. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:07 - Oct 25 with 2817 views | Guthrum |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:54 - Oct 25 by DJR | Interesting development. Will Starmer follow suit? The UK government has said it does not agree with the assessment of UN secretary-general António Guterres that there have been “clear violations of international humanitarian law” by Israel in Gaza, where over 5,700 civilians are reported dead since 7 October. Minister Robert Jenrick told Sky News: We don’t agree with that. If he is referring to what has happened over the course of the last two weeks, we don’t believe Israel has broken international law. There is a clear right in international law for a nation to defend itself, and that is what Israel is doing. We do want to see Israel, wherever practical — and it is immensely difficult to do — to surgically degrade and eradicate Hamas. That is what they are trying to do and we obviously hope they succeed because the world will be a better place … it will be a blessing if we can rid the world of Hamas. |
Of course, the only way to "eradicate" Hamas would be to go after their leadership and international backers. Neither can be achieved by bombing Gaza. The one are safely abroad and the other a significant nation state. For that matter, a purely aerial campaign is also useless. Hamas will have hidden, buried or be moving their resources. The key people, as I've said, are not even in Gaza. In a military sense, the only way to genuinely tackle it is to go in with ground forces and clear the tunnels, one-by-one (as with fighting the North Vietnamese, or the Japanese on the islands in WWII). At the cost of very many Israeli lives. Without boots on the ground, they have little real influence over what's happening within the enclave. The civilians - even if they were so inclined - aren't going to rise up and overthrow the heavily armed Hamas/PIJ forces. But they've dithered too long for an effective ground campaign. Momentum has gone, the international mood has shifted and Hamas have had a chance to regroup and prepare. Rubble is no easier to fight over than buildings. Troops can't stay keyed up for action indefinitely. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:15 - Oct 25 with 2759 views | Guthrum |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:06 - Oct 25 by lowhouseblue | and part of the non-vacum in which this all takes place therefore is israel's essential and legitimate need for security. you can read a much longer history in those terms rather than just the events from 7th october. just as you cannot understand any of this without focusing on palestinian rights and suffering, israel's right to security is an essential component and has to be part of any solution*. the pogrom on 7th october is an illustration of that, but the history from 1948 can be read in terms of that same theme. *i obviously don't know what the solution is and the current debates and events on both sides seem to be devoid of any serious options. |
It even goes back to the time of the late Ottoman Empire, during which there was a tendency for Jews to be more favoured and Arabs treated as unreliable, rebellious and were sometimes savagely cracked down upon. It's no coincidence that the Arab Revolt (the one involving T.E. Lawrence) broke out as soon as the Empire looked vulnerable. Hence the feeling of betrayal at the Balfour Declaration and, more significantly, the Sykes-Picot Agreement. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 12:34 - Oct 25 with 2610 views | Ryorry |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:15 - Oct 25 by Guthrum | It even goes back to the time of the late Ottoman Empire, during which there was a tendency for Jews to be more favoured and Arabs treated as unreliable, rebellious and were sometimes savagely cracked down upon. It's no coincidence that the Arab Revolt (the one involving T.E. Lawrence) broke out as soon as the Empire looked vulnerable. Hence the feeling of betrayal at the Balfour Declaration and, more significantly, the Sykes-Picot Agreement. |
Apologies for my ignorance, but who *originally* booted the Jews out of the region, and when did they do it? Are we talking 2 millennia? |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:04 - Oct 25 with 2531 views | Radlett_blue |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 10:07 - Oct 25 by Guthrum | Of course, the only way to "eradicate" Hamas would be to go after their leadership and international backers. Neither can be achieved by bombing Gaza. The one are safely abroad and the other a significant nation state. For that matter, a purely aerial campaign is also useless. Hamas will have hidden, buried or be moving their resources. The key people, as I've said, are not even in Gaza. In a military sense, the only way to genuinely tackle it is to go in with ground forces and clear the tunnels, one-by-one (as with fighting the North Vietnamese, or the Japanese on the islands in WWII). At the cost of very many Israeli lives. Without boots on the ground, they have little real influence over what's happening within the enclave. The civilians - even if they were so inclined - aren't going to rise up and overthrow the heavily armed Hamas/PIJ forces. But they've dithered too long for an effective ground campaign. Momentum has gone, the international mood has shifted and Hamas have had a chance to regroup and prepare. Rubble is no easier to fight over than buildings. Troops can't stay keyed up for action indefinitely. |
Indeed, I understand the Israeli wish to "eradicate" Hamas, by which presumably they mean their leaders, weapons & main fighters. But these people will be near impossible to identify & even harder to "eradicate" without large loss of life of innocents & the destruction of the infrastructure of Gaza (although making Gaza near uninhabitable & forcing a huge exodus of Palestinians is probably a secondary aim of the Israelis). Even if they achieve this, the resentment will become even more deep rooted & new groups will emerge, funded & supplied by the likes of Iran. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 16:10]
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:25 - Oct 25 with 2483 views | Guthrum |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 12:34 - Oct 25 by Ryorry | Apologies for my ignorance, but who *originally* booted the Jews out of the region, and when did they do it? Are we talking 2 millennia? |
As always, it's complicated. Even before Roman times, there was a large Jewish diaspora, particularly in Persia and Hellenic Egypt (Alexandria). Following the Jewish Revolt(s) and the Roman destruction of the Temple, they were expelled from Jerusalem, but not the whole region. After the Islamic takeover, Jews were ok, until the Crusaders turned up and massacred them. From then on, Jewish communities existed in the area of modern Israel (the Sephardim) until the modern era. Ironically, they have to an extent been pushed out, alongside Palestinians, by 20th century Jewish immigrants from Europe. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:42 - Oct 25 with 2426 views | LeoMuff |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 08:54 - Oct 25 by DJR | Interesting development. Will Starmer follow suit? The UK government has said it does not agree with the assessment of UN secretary-general António Guterres that there have been “clear violations of international humanitarian law” by Israel in Gaza, where over 5,700 civilians are reported dead since 7 October. Minister Robert Jenrick told Sky News: We don’t agree with that. If he is referring to what has happened over the course of the last two weeks, we don’t believe Israel has broken international law. There is a clear right in international law for a nation to defend itself, and that is what Israel is doing. We do want to see Israel, wherever practical — and it is immensely difficult to do — to surgically degrade and eradicate Hamas. That is what they are trying to do and we obviously hope they succeed because the world will be a better place … it will be a blessing if we can rid the world of Hamas. |
Love to know how they justify turning off of water supplies and access to food and medicine, or bombing safe corridors as defending itself or within international law. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:45 - Oct 25 with 2415 views | redrickstuhaart |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:42 - Oct 25 by LeoMuff | Love to know how they justify turning off of water supplies and access to food and medicine, or bombing safe corridors as defending itself or within international law. |
It is troubling that our government fails to address thos epoints, and says that international laws are not being breached "because Israel is entitled to defend itself". Such a double standard, and feeds right into the narrative of people like Putin. |  | |  |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 14:48 - Oct 25 with 2324 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:45 - Oct 25 by redrickstuhaart | It is troubling that our government fails to address thos epoints, and says that international laws are not being breached "because Israel is entitled to defend itself". Such a double standard, and feeds right into the narrative of people like Putin. |
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-soldiers-impunity-yesh-din/ |  | |  |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 14:58 - Oct 25 with 2296 views | WeWereZombies |
Not available on the iplayer at the moment but if you get a chance to see this do not miss it: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000f8x8#:~:text=resisting%20the%20occupation.- I saw a street fight in Poland where I think someone got their back broken whilst they were on the ground, that was a sight that I couldn't get out of my head for a few days. It helped me to understand what my Tunisian friend who has studied in Israel meant when she told me she has seen things which 'she cannot unsee', and we have to remember that most, if not all, of the survivors of the Hamas raid will be experiencing that too. Edit repetition of could not get out of head replaced by 'could not unsee' both to prevent repeated phrase and to reflect what was actually said. [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 15:28]
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 15:07 - Oct 25 with 2264 views | BlueBadger |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:45 - Oct 25 by redrickstuhaart | It is troubling that our government fails to address thos epoints, and says that international laws are not being breached "because Israel is entitled to defend itself". Such a double standard, and feeds right into the narrative of people like Putin. |
I don't think the current UK government are in the best place to lecture anyone about breaches of international law given their various attempts to do so in recent years. |  |
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Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 15:30 - Oct 25 with 2221 views | Blueschev |
Israel turning the screw on the UN now. on 13:45 - Oct 25 by redrickstuhaart | It is troubling that our government fails to address thos epoints, and says that international laws are not being breached "because Israel is entitled to defend itself". Such a double standard, and feeds right into the narrative of people like Putin. |
The British government is in no position to lecture anybody on breaches of international law, particularly in the Middle East, [Post edited 25 Oct 2023 15:41]
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