| Scottish parliament legalized dying 22:14 - Mar 17 with 1033 views | Perublue |
Is this a surprise ?
I thought the mood music was heading the other way a year or so ago ? |  |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 06:22 - Mar 18 with 804 views | Cotty |
It would be harsh to make dying illegal |  | | |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 07:43 - Mar 18 with 751 views | BloomBlue |
Not sufficient guards to prevent people being coerced into choosing to end their life. Plus concerns this is how it started in other countries and then the criteria slowly expanded.
Interesting that many people thought the vote was going to be so close it could go either way, but in the end it was 69 to 57. |  | | |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 07:53 - Mar 18 with 733 views | Herbivore |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 07:43 - Mar 18 by BloomBlue |
Not sufficient guards to prevent people being coerced into choosing to end their life. Plus concerns this is how it started in other countries and then the criteria slowly expanded.
Interesting that many people thought the vote was going to be so close it could go either way, but in the end it was 69 to 57. |
For some there will never be enough safeguards and it's a shame that those people are wanting to deny others the choice to die with dignity at a time of their choosing. |  |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:05 - Mar 18 with 721 views | Guthrum |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 07:53 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
For some there will never be enough safeguards and it's a shame that those people are wanting to deny others the choice to die with dignity at a time of their choosing. |
The really sad thing is that if the billions spent on bombing Iran had been put into medical research, we might have cures or better ways of treating conditions which have left people just wanting to die. |  |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:13 - Mar 18 with 670 views | Herbivore |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:05 - Mar 18 by Guthrum |
The really sad thing is that if the billions spent on bombing Iran had been put into medical research, we might have cures or better ways of treating conditions which have left people just wanting to die. |
This is true but we will never completely stop people experiencing terminal illness and the final weeks and days of many such illnesses are horrific. People in those situations shouldn't have to suffer and should have the choice to end their life on their terms. | |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:31 - Mar 18 with 631 views | Guthrum |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:13 - Mar 18 by Herbivore |
This is true but we will never completely stop people experiencing terminal illness and the final weeks and days of many such illnesses are horrific. People in those situations shouldn't have to suffer and should have the choice to end their life on their terms. |
I'm not fundamentally opposed to AD, but it is an irrevocable step. Especially when applied (as it is in some countries) to young people with mental health conditions.
There are also currently financial incentives (e.g. care home charges taking most of the value of inheritable properties) for sick and elderly relatives dying sooner rather than later. Most people would not consciously dream of thinking that way - but some might be tempted.
Fine if it is self-initiated by somebody with the mental capacity to do so of their own volition. But not everybody with a severe and terminal condition falls entirely within that bracket, thus it drifts into grey areas. | |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:40 - Mar 18 with 616 views | tcblue |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:31 - Mar 18 by Guthrum |
I'm not fundamentally opposed to AD, but it is an irrevocable step. Especially when applied (as it is in some countries) to young people with mental health conditions.
There are also currently financial incentives (e.g. care home charges taking most of the value of inheritable properties) for sick and elderly relatives dying sooner rather than later. Most people would not consciously dream of thinking that way - but some might be tempted.
Fine if it is self-initiated by somebody with the mental capacity to do so of their own volition. But not everybody with a severe and terminal condition falls entirely within that bracket, thus it drifts into grey areas. |
I don't think you stop people with mental health problems from ending their lives by making it harder and illegal |  | | |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:42 - Mar 18 with 608 views | Guthrum |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:40 - Mar 18 by tcblue |
I don't think you stop people with mental health problems from ending their lives by making it harder and illegal |
I know that only too well.
But making it easier concerns me. [Post edited 18 Mar 8:42]
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:42 - Mar 18 with 604 views | tcblue |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:42 - Mar 18 by Guthrum |
I know that only too well.
But making it easier concerns me. [Post edited 18 Mar 8:42]
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Same.
Hugs, man | | | |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:47 - Mar 18 with 605 views | cinnamonITFC |
I’m not against assisted dying in principle, but I am fundamentally opposed to both the Leadbeater and McArthur Bills.
I won’t explain all my reasons here, but they come primarily from my experience as a doctor. Primarily they revolve around micro-coercion (massive concern), risk to those with disabilities, lack of psychiatric safeguards and reliance on a knowingly problematic mental capacity act. Amongst others. Also important to look at Canada, Netherlands, Belgium to see where this could end up (eg <18yo and for solely mental health conditions).
It’s worth noting that the Royal College of Psychiatrists, British Geriatrics Society and Association for Palliative Medicine (who as a trio probably have the most experience with these cases) have all come out against the bill.
I would say the ‘mood music’ is actually swinging against the bill. The majority between the first and second readings of the Leadbeater Bill fell from 55 to 23. And now the McArthur Bill has failed.
I honestly believe the more people look closely at the details, rather than just the ‘principle’, the more against the bill they often become. [Post edited 18 Mar 9:05]
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 09:00 - Mar 18 with 578 views | BlueBadger |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 08:31 - Mar 18 by Guthrum |
I'm not fundamentally opposed to AD, but it is an irrevocable step. Especially when applied (as it is in some countries) to young people with mental health conditions.
There are also currently financial incentives (e.g. care home charges taking most of the value of inheritable properties) for sick and elderly relatives dying sooner rather than later. Most people would not consciously dream of thinking that way - but some might be tempted.
Fine if it is self-initiated by somebody with the mental capacity to do so of their own volition. But not everybody with a severe and terminal condition falls entirely within that bracket, thus it drifts into grey areas. |
I'm in the 'cautiously in favour' bracket but we desperately need to improve palliative care services and our approach to death and dying in this country too. |  |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 09:21 - Mar 18 with 537 views | Guthrum |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 09:00 - Mar 18 by BlueBadger |
I'm in the 'cautiously in favour' bracket but we desperately need to improve palliative care services and our approach to death and dying in this country too. |
My recent experience with palliative care (my mother) was pretty good. The pain relief - morphine patches and oral doses - was not perfect, but generally very good.
The major issue was the catheter, which was very troublesome and uncomfortable. Issues related to that (particularly the frequent need to replace) are what probably caused the sepsis from which she died. | |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 10:03 - Mar 18 with 500 views | BlueBadger |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 09:21 - Mar 18 by Guthrum |
My recent experience with palliative care (my mother) was pretty good. The pain relief - morphine patches and oral doses - was not perfect, but generally very good.
The major issue was the catheter, which was very troublesome and uncomfortable. Issues related to that (particularly the frequent need to replace) are what probably caused the sepsis from which she died. |
Sympathies to you for your mum Guffers.
Catheters are horrible, horrible things. Occasionally a necessary evil but particularly towards the end of life there really doesn't seem to be any kind of 'magic bullet' solution to continence care, which can often cause more distress than symptoms which are 'expected'. | |
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| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 10:04 - Mar 18 with 497 views | Churchman |
| Scottish parliament legalized dying on 09:00 - Mar 18 by BlueBadger |
I'm in the 'cautiously in favour' bracket but we desperately need to improve palliative care services and our approach to death and dying in this country too. |
I’m strongly in favour of legalised dying. I’ve seen what the alternative is first hand and it’s cruel, unnecessary, degrading and disgusting. And that was in situations where everyone did their best. Apologies for the forceful language. It’s honestly how I feel about it.
The problem is you can only do so much with ‘palliative care’. In the real world the doctors have to strike a balance. 48 hours before he died my father was in the Hospice and in a lot of distress (polite way of putting it) after slow then rapid decline over the previous year.
When the doctor came in, I asked if they could take his pain away by upping whatever cocktail they use (morphine?). ‘We can’t kill him’ was the response. ‘I’m not asking you to; I would just like his distress taken away even if that means complete unconsciousness’ said I. By the lunchtime, they fitted a ‘morphine pump’ and drugs were administered essentially by computer. 36 hours later he was gone.
I was in the US when my mother died. I saw her a week or so before she went. The distress she was in was beyond words. There was no upside, no ‘if maybes’, just misery and unlimited pain that could have lasted a week, month, three months. No quality of life, no tv Lazarus recoveries or happy endings. At one point a few days later she was brave enough to try and end it herself, but was not strong enough to do so.
The reality is that if I had been allowed to I’d have taken that last 10 days of misery and indignity away from both of them in an heartbeat and slept soundly. There was never going to be a good outcome. No people round the bed, Victorian parlour painting style. The reality is not like tv or the movies and while terms like palliative care sound like a pain free way of letting things take their natural course it’s not like that in many cases.
Ok, my sample experience is small but real (three including the father in law who was put on the Liverpool pathway - just about as ugliest as it gets), seeing people in hospital, St Elizabeth’s and Asterbury Care Home. I wasn’t blind to other people at the end of their lives either, especially in the Hospice of course.
I’ve heard all the arguments. Sanctity of life, playing god, Harold Shipman, who makes the decision etc etc. I get that. But there has to be a better way than what happens now. Yes, there needs to be scrutiny and reducing the chances of a Shipman. Controls, whatever. But the likes of Switzerland has it more right than we do and in principle I’m in favour of it.
Finally, a word on the staff in these places. Easily ignored or forgotten. Not by me. I met so many extraordinary people dealing with about as difficult a situation as you can get. Dealing with stuff most of us shy away from. They have my respect and admiration. I could never thank them enough. |  | | |
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