| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg 21:26 - Jun 13 with 3947 views | StokieBlue |
Been a sizeable rebellion by Labour MPs this evening with 5 resigning their posts so they could defy the whip. 90 rebelled in all, 15 to vote with the Conservatives and 75 against. The whip ordered all to abstain on JC's orders. Brexit seems to be starting to bite within both parties.
And for some balance, surely one of the best cases of having your cake and eating it from JRM:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/06/13/tory-mp-jacob-rees-mogg-defends-
Silly at best given his hard-line position.
SB
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:41 - Jun 13 with 3141 views | Swansea_Blue |
Not surprised by Mogg’s hypocrisy at all. I’m assuming he sees Brexit as his ticket to a greater role in the Party, and maybe to leadership and the keys to number 10. His political position differing from his business actions is no surprise. And probably tells you all you need to know about this sorry mess.
I’m not sure I’ve known a more devisive issue. I wonder how deep the wounds are going to go, and what the full impact will be on the parties and us public. If there’s any truth to the warnings of us ending up in a worse position I can only see the animosity growing. |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:45 - Jun 13 with 3137 views | gordon |
Kier Starmer, Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke have all said that an amendment on the Irish Border which passed into law means it's now pretty much impossible for us to leave the single market and customs union in any substantive way, though this hasn't been reported much or at all because it wasn't quite as headline grabbing as the resignations and rebellions. |  | | |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:46 - Jun 13 with 3129 views | jimmyvet |
What a complete fiasco. Very quiet on here tonight which is not surprising because even the most ardent fan of comrade Corbyn can probably find no words to defend what a hopeless useless opposition leader he is. To look completely at odds with a huge swathe of your own MPs who completely ignored him and to make the tories look almost united on this issue....words fail me. This country more than ever needs a credible opposition leader and we are still left with this hopeless marxist who will never achieve anything but failure how on earth can the tories have an 8 point lead mid parliament when they are clearly themselves in such turmoil.
I just hope and pray from somewhere reality can return and a sensible moderate electable leader can rise somehow from within the labour party to get rid of this idiot and offer some proper opposition and hope to us moderate centrist voters. |  | | |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:54 - Jun 13 with 3097 views | Guthrum |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:41 - Jun 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Not surprised by Mogg’s hypocrisy at all. I’m assuming he sees Brexit as his ticket to a greater role in the Party, and maybe to leadership and the keys to number 10. His political position differing from his business actions is no surprise. And probably tells you all you need to know about this sorry mess.
I’m not sure I’ve known a more devisive issue. I wonder how deep the wounds are going to go, and what the full impact will be on the parties and us public. If there’s any truth to the warnings of us ending up in a worse position I can only see the animosity growing. |
Leadership of the party, maybe. But I very much doubt we'll ever see Rees-Mogg in Number Ten. His position (on many things) is so far out that while many Conservative Party members might like him, the majority of Conservative voters (a vastly larger number) won't.
As I've said before, can see him as the Tories' Michael Foot - made his party unelectable for many years. |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:01 - Jun 13 with 3072 views | jimmyvet |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:54 - Jun 13 by Guthrum |
Leadership of the party, maybe. But I very much doubt we'll ever see Rees-Mogg in Number Ten. His position (on many things) is so far out that while many Conservative Party members might like him, the majority of Conservative voters (a vastly larger number) won't.
As I've said before, can see him as the Tories' Michael Foot - made his party unelectable for many years. |
You mention Michael Foot great politician but fail to mention Corbyn making his party unelectable why is that? | | | |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:04 - Jun 13 with 3072 views | Guthrum |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:01 - Jun 13 by jimmyvet |
You mention Michael Foot great politician but fail to mention Corbyn making his party unelectable why is that? |
Because Foot (a very clever man - and very personable according to a friend who met him) was the strongest parallel. Corbyn is more like Kinnock.
Edit: To expand that a little, the position taken by the Labour Party under Foot was too extreme for the country to accept. It would be the same for Conservatives led by Rees-Mogg. Corbyn, like Kinnock, is not really all that left-wing, but neither is he strong enough to pull the party together and seriously challenge the government (similarly Hague's Tories). [Post edited 13 Jun 2018 22:17]
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:12 - Jun 13 with 3038 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:04 - Jun 13 by Guthrum |
Because Foot (a very clever man - and very personable according to a friend who met him) was the strongest parallel. Corbyn is more like Kinnock.
Edit: To expand that a little, the position taken by the Labour Party under Foot was too extreme for the country to accept. It would be the same for Conservatives led by Rees-Mogg. Corbyn, like Kinnock, is not really all that left-wing, but neither is he strong enough to pull the party together and seriously challenge the government (similarly Hague's Tories). [Post edited 13 Jun 2018 22:17]
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in what sense is corbyn like kinnock? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:13 - Jun 13 with 3033 views | wkj |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:46 - Jun 13 by jimmyvet |
What a complete fiasco. Very quiet on here tonight which is not surprising because even the most ardent fan of comrade Corbyn can probably find no words to defend what a hopeless useless opposition leader he is. To look completely at odds with a huge swathe of your own MPs who completely ignored him and to make the tories look almost united on this issue....words fail me. This country more than ever needs a credible opposition leader and we are still left with this hopeless marxist who will never achieve anything but failure how on earth can the tories have an 8 point lead mid parliament when they are clearly themselves in such turmoil.
I just hope and pray from somewhere reality can return and a sensible moderate electable leader can rise somehow from within the labour party to get rid of this idiot and offer some proper opposition and hope to us moderate centrist voters. |
Not really quiet due to bitterness, we're happy the Tories in labour clothing are fleeing |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:17 - Jun 13 with 3016 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:13 - Jun 13 by wkj |
Not really quiet due to bitterness, we're happy the Tories in labour clothing are fleeing |
But that's not what happened.
Why is it that whenever something goes against the leadership it's suddenly because they are red-Tories?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:18 - Jun 13 with 3009 views | Guthrum |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:12 - Jun 13 by lowhouseblue |
in what sense is corbyn like kinnock? |
Sorry, have just edited that post to expand my argument. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:25 - Jun 13 with 2985 views | lowhouseblue |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:18 - Jun 13 by Guthrum |
Sorry, have just edited that post to expand my argument. |
even edited i think that's very unfair. under kinnock labour were close to winning in 1992 - he had made the party electable and then messed up the final campaign. he took the party back to the centre ground after foot's sticking plaster. kinnock was of the left but knew that the party needed to encompass the centre. corbyn wants the left to stand alone. they would both be insulted by the comparison. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:28 - Jun 13 with 2968 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:17 - Jun 13 by StokieBlue |
But that's not what happened.
Why is it that whenever something goes against the leadership it's suddenly because they are red-Tories?
SB |
Is there a correlation across the board between voting of ('rebellious')mps and constituency leanings regarding Brexit. If so they are either representing their constituents wishes or being careerists (hoping to be reelected) depending on how kind you are feeling.
Whatever, parliament is full of rocks and hard places at the moment which is mildly amusing as it exposes the sham of party politics. |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:28 - Jun 13 with 2966 views | wkj |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:17 - Jun 13 by StokieBlue |
But that's not what happened.
Why is it that whenever something goes against the leadership it's suddenly because they are red-Tories?
SB |
My post was actually dry humour making fun of that very phenomenon | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:28 - Jun 13 with 2964 views | J2BLUE |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 21:45 - Jun 13 by gordon |
Kier Starmer, Dominic Grieve and Ken Clarke have all said that an amendment on the Irish Border which passed into law means it's now pretty much impossible for us to leave the single market and customs union in any substantive way, though this hasn't been reported much or at all because it wasn't quite as headline grabbing as the resignations and rebellions. |
So Brexit has been defeated. Congratulations remainers. |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:36 - Jun 13 with 2942 views | Guthrum |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:25 - Jun 13 by lowhouseblue |
even edited i think that's very unfair. under kinnock labour were close to winning in 1992 - he had made the party electable and then messed up the final campaign. he took the party back to the centre ground after foot's sticking plaster. kinnock was of the left but knew that the party needed to encompass the centre. corbyn wants the left to stand alone. they would both be insulted by the comparison. |
I remember the surprise at how well Major won in '92. However, for me that is very similar to Corbyn's inability to rally sufficient support to defeat a weak May campaign last year. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:48 - Jun 13 with 2905 views | Guthrum |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:28 - Jun 13 by J2BLUE |
So Brexit has been defeated. Congratulations remainers. |
It hasn't yet. And it depends what you wanted out of it in the first place.
If, for example, you were happy enough with economic aspects of the EU (i.e. along the lines of the old EEC), but not keen on the move towards federalism, then this outcome may suit you.
If you strongly objected to immigration from the EU, then it will probably not, as freedom of movement is likely to be the price of staying in the Single Market.
But there's a long way to go before this has played itself out. We may yet end up with a WTO crash exit. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:50 - Jun 13 with 2893 views | StokieBlue |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:28 - Jun 13 by wkj |
My post was actually dry humour making fun of that very phenomenon |
Guess that's also the issue, it's impossible to tell anymore.
At least for me.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:51 - Jun 13 with 2888 views | wkj |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:50 - Jun 13 by StokieBlue |
Guess that's also the issue, it's impossible to tell anymore.
At least for me.
SB |
I take it as a compliment really, when people can't tell I am being daft, it means I sort of accomplished my goal.
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 23:00 - Jun 13 with 2874 views | J2BLUE |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 22:48 - Jun 13 by Guthrum |
It hasn't yet. And it depends what you wanted out of it in the first place.
If, for example, you were happy enough with economic aspects of the EU (i.e. along the lines of the old EEC), but not keen on the move towards federalism, then this outcome may suit you.
If you strongly objected to immigration from the EU, then it will probably not, as freedom of movement is likely to be the price of staying in the Single Market.
But there's a long way to go before this has played itself out. We may yet end up with a WTO crash exit. |
A lot of people did vote to end free movement. Staying in the single market while leaving is pointless.
Personally i'm not bothered about immigration but it will cause chaos if we stay in the single market. We need a second referendum on leaving versus staying to end it properly and remain full members. It needs to be ended by the people rather than what will be considered a government betrayal. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 23:13 - Jun 13 with 2841 views | wkj |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 23:00 - Jun 13 by J2BLUE |
A lot of people did vote to end free movement. Staying in the single market while leaving is pointless.
Personally i'm not bothered about immigration but it will cause chaos if we stay in the single market. We need a second referendum on leaving versus staying to end it properly and remain full members. It needs to be ended by the people rather than what will be considered a government betrayal. |
This I can agree with, I am genuinely concerned what we get isn't what the majority were expecting. Rather more worryingly is that I really don't think anyone has ever known what the withdrawal from the EU will actually be. Both remain and leave spun some whopping claims during the campaign, and I don't think anyone on either side of the house is fully aware of what is a good result for the UK. Labour and Tories have both been guilty of being fighting over their terms instead of making strong attempts to reach bipartisan progress on it, in my mind both May and Corbyn are not the best leaders of the parties during this process, and what's worse is its impossible to really know who is and everyone has seemed to merge into their own cliques of ideas, and we're getting nowhere.
I voted remain, and I lost- but I haven't taken a stand against the process, and I think like J2, my big fears about it aren't due to sour grapes that my point of view lost, but more because I really don't think there are many people capable of getting the most out of it for the population or themselves. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 00:59 - Jun 14 with 2748 views | baxterbasics |
The end of freedom of movement and jurisdiction of the ECJ are what matter most. If either goal is compromised, it is a betrayal. |  |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 06:22 - Jun 14 with 2668 views | Colin_Viljoen |
, in my mind both May and Corbyn are not the best leaders of the parties during this process, and what's worse is its impossible to really know who is
Oh well WKJ.............. Nigel Farage is waiting in the wings!! |  | | |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 06:52 - Jun 14 with 2632 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 06:22 - Jun 14 by Colin_Viljoen |
, in my mind both May and Corbyn are not the best leaders of the parties during this process, and what's worse is its impossible to really know who is
Oh well WKJ.............. Nigel Farage is waiting in the wings!! |
I thought it was Alan Sugar. | |
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| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 07:33 - Jun 14 with 2595 views | gordon |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 00:59 - Jun 14 by baxterbasics |
The end of freedom of movement and jurisdiction of the ECJ are what matter most. If either goal is compromised, it is a betrayal. |
The betrayal was quite a few years ago now, when people were promised something which was impossible to actually implement. | | | |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 07:33 - Jun 14 with 2592 views | Herbivore |
| Labour rebellion and Rees-Mogg on 00:59 - Jun 14 by baxterbasics |
The end of freedom of movement and jurisdiction of the ECJ are what matter most. If either goal is compromised, it is a betrayal. |
They may be what matter most to you, but not to everyone. |  |
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