| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) 11:11 - Mar 26 with 6096 views | Steve_M |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:14 - Mar 26 with 2647 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
If you ever want to identify a Daily Mail reader...
.....just look out for anyone who uses the word 'remoaner'. |  |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:22 - Mar 26 with 2609 views | Herbivore |
It's interesting to see the hero of the hard Brexiteers crumbling and backing a deal he's repeatedly said he thinks isn't Brexit and isn't good for the country. A principled politician is hard to find and if you find them it won't be on TV or in the press. |  |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:24 - Mar 26 with 2600 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:22 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's interesting to see the hero of the hard Brexiteers crumbling and backing a deal he's repeatedly said he thinks isn't Brexit and isn't good for the country. A principled politician is hard to find and if you find them it won't be on TV or in the press. |
Male. Tick.
Tory. Tick.
Bottled it. Tick. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:25 - Mar 26 with 2602 views | SWGF |
In-fighting amongst Tories or Labour? Yes.
But we've now got Vote Leave having a pop at JRM.
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:27 - Mar 26 with 2589 views | StokieBlue |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:22 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's interesting to see the hero of the hard Brexiteers crumbling and backing a deal he's repeatedly said he thinks isn't Brexit and isn't good for the country. A principled politician is hard to find and if you find them it won't be on TV or in the press. |
He and the ERG have overplayed their hand. They pushed it too far trying to get the hardest Brexit possible and now they have virtually had that option taken away from them they are scrambling for whatever they can get.
It's great.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:29 - Mar 26 with 2577 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:27 - Mar 26 by StokieBlue |
He and the ERG have overplayed their hand. They pushed it too far trying to get the hardest Brexit possible and now they have virtually had that option taken away from them they are scrambling for whatever they can get.
It's great.
SB |
It's great from an entertainment perspective, seeing a bunch of fringe loons bickering as they scramble back under their rock and backtrack on 3 years of false bravado. For the country though it's less than ideal as a universally unpopular Withdrawal Agreement looks increasingly likely to get voted through after all. I think the indicative votes will be the nail in the coffin of a different path. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:31 - Mar 26 with 2565 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:29 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's great from an entertainment perspective, seeing a bunch of fringe loons bickering as they scramble back under their rock and backtrack on 3 years of false bravado. For the country though it's less than ideal as a universally unpopular Withdrawal Agreement looks increasingly likely to get voted through after all. I think the indicative votes will be the nail in the coffin of a different path. |
I voted remain.
I'll take the deal over 'no deal'. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:32 - Mar 26 with 2565 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:25 - Mar 26 by SWGF |
In-fighting amongst Tories or Labour? Yes.
But we've now got Vote Leave having a pop at JRM.
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Ha ha.
Vote leave reminding someone about broken promises.
LOL, thats brilliant. You couldnt make it up. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 26 with 2563 views | StokieBlue |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:29 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's great from an entertainment perspective, seeing a bunch of fringe loons bickering as they scramble back under their rock and backtrack on 3 years of false bravado. For the country though it's less than ideal as a universally unpopular Withdrawal Agreement looks increasingly likely to get voted through after all. I think the indicative votes will be the nail in the coffin of a different path. |
That's true, it does seem to make it more likely the withdrawal will get through but they need 150 MPs to change their mind and the ERG+DUP is only 90 and not all of them are onboard with voting it through.
I'm hopefully the indicative votes will show a path that can get a majority but maybe that's me being too optimistic given the total shower everything has been thus far.
This also seems a bit deluded from John Baron:
"A snap general election is becoming more likely. Whatever the outcome of the votes on Wednesday, the numbers inside the current remain-dominated House of Commons will not change.
It may be that an election is necessary to redress the balance in favour of MPs willing to implement the referendum result, for history suggests it is unwise for any parliament to distance itself from the people. The events of the next few weeks will be critical."
Surely given the way demographics and opinions have moved a GE would result in more MPs less likely to implement the referendum result. The GE would also likely be fought on a platform of a second referendum from some sides.
SB [Post edited 26 Mar 2019 11:34]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 26 with 2553 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:31 - Mar 26 by Marshalls_Mullet |
I voted remain.
I'll take the deal over 'no deal'. |
That's a false binary option though. I'd take May's deal over no deal as well, but those don't have to be the only options. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:34 - Mar 26 with 2544 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
That's a false binary option though. I'd take May's deal over no deal as well, but those don't have to be the only options. |
True, but its more likely / deliverable than remaining. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:35 - Mar 26 with 2543 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:25 - Mar 26 by SWGF |
In-fighting amongst Tories or Labour? Yes.
But we've now got Vote Leave having a pop at JRM.
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Beautiful. It's not just remainers pointing out the lies, hypocrisy and flip flopping of prominent Brexiteers now. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:39 - Mar 26 with 2503 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:33 - Mar 26 by StokieBlue |
That's true, it does seem to make it more likely the withdrawal will get through but they need 150 MPs to change their mind and the ERG+DUP is only 90 and not all of them are onboard with voting it through.
I'm hopefully the indicative votes will show a path that can get a majority but maybe that's me being too optimistic given the total shower everything has been thus far.
This also seems a bit deluded from John Baron:
"A snap general election is becoming more likely. Whatever the outcome of the votes on Wednesday, the numbers inside the current remain-dominated House of Commons will not change.
It may be that an election is necessary to redress the balance in favour of MPs willing to implement the referendum result, for history suggests it is unwise for any parliament to distance itself from the people. The events of the next few weeks will be critical."
Surely given the way demographics and opinions have moved a GE would result in more MPs less likely to implement the referendum result. The GE would also likely be fought on a platform of a second referendum from some sides.
SB [Post edited 26 Mar 2019 11:34]
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They need 75 to change their minds to get the WA through, that's a 150 vote swing. 90 ERG members switching sides is more than enough, though I suspect they won't all jump ship.
I'm not convinced the indicative votes will bring clarity. Some will be whipped against, others are too politically sensitive to get widespread support no matter what the MPs may privately back. I'm not sure we'll get any clear outcome.
For me, I still make the WA getting through the most likely outcome. May to stand down and someone else leading the negotiations post-Brexit. The Tories always find a way to save themselves and cling to power in the end. Power is the one thing that unites them. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:40 - Mar 26 with 2508 views | lowhouseblue |
there are, i'm told, people who think rees mogg is clever (i guess because he has a posh accent and knows the latin). but if it's taken him this long to work out that may's deal is the best that the hard brexiteers were ever going to get, he is really seriously thick. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:41 - Mar 26 with 2491 views | StokieBlue |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:39 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
They need 75 to change their minds to get the WA through, that's a 150 vote swing. 90 ERG members switching sides is more than enough, though I suspect they won't all jump ship.
I'm not convinced the indicative votes will bring clarity. Some will be whipped against, others are too politically sensitive to get widespread support no matter what the MPs may privately back. I'm not sure we'll get any clear outcome.
For me, I still make the WA getting through the most likely outcome. May to stand down and someone else leading the negotiations post-Brexit. The Tories always find a way to save themselves and cling to power in the end. Power is the one thing that unites them. |
That's true, brain clearly not up to speed this morning.
SB | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:41 - Mar 26 with 2493 views | Guthrum |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:29 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
It's great from an entertainment perspective, seeing a bunch of fringe loons bickering as they scramble back under their rock and backtrack on 3 years of false bravado. For the country though it's less than ideal as a universally unpopular Withdrawal Agreement looks increasingly likely to get voted through after all. I think the indicative votes will be the nail in the coffin of a different path. |
The WA is only unpopular because: 1) A lot of people don't want Brexit at all; 2) Some people want instant exit with no WA; 3) Some people don't like the idea of the backstop in case we become trapped by failing to ever negotiate a trade deal; 4) It was negotiated by a Tory government; 5) Some confused people think the WA is the final, permanent arrangement with the EU.
Between those, sometimes overlapping, zones on the Venn diagram of UK political opinion, a negative view of the WA covers very many people, probably a large majority. |  |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:42 - Mar 26 with 2489 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:40 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
there are, i'm told, people who think rees mogg is clever (i guess because he has a posh accent and knows the latin). but if it's taken him this long to work out that may's deal is the best that the hard brexiteers were ever going to get, he is really seriously thick. |
My word, I actually agree with you on something. The truth is that May's deal is a harder Brexiteer than most Brexiteers were backing in the lead up to the referendum. Their unexpected win in 2016 emboldened them and they became like kids in a sweetshop. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:49 - Mar 26 with 2409 views | footers |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:40 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
there are, i'm told, people who think rees mogg is clever (i guess because he has a posh accent and knows the latin). but if it's taken him this long to work out that may's deal is the best that the hard brexiteers were ever going to get, he is really seriously thick. |
He's a stupid person's idea of a clever person.
And he's inherited his powers of political prediction from his dad it seems! |  |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:51 - Mar 26 with 2396 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:41 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
The WA is only unpopular because: 1) A lot of people don't want Brexit at all; 2) Some people want instant exit with no WA; 3) Some people don't like the idea of the backstop in case we become trapped by failing to ever negotiate a trade deal; 4) It was negotiated by a Tory government; 5) Some confused people think the WA is the final, permanent arrangement with the EU.
Between those, sometimes overlapping, zones on the Venn diagram of UK political opinion, a negative view of the WA covers very many people, probably a large majority. |
This is true, different people dislike it for different reasons but they are united in disliking it. Same would apply to a Norway style deal too I think, despite it seemibg to be a reasonable compromise on a close referendum result. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:51 - Mar 26 with 2400 views | Guthrum |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:40 - Mar 26 by lowhouseblue |
there are, i'm told, people who think rees mogg is clever (i guess because he has a posh accent and knows the latin). but if it's taken him this long to work out that may's deal is the best that the hard brexiteers were ever going to get, he is really seriously thick. |
The confusion probably comes due to the preponderence of hard-line views among the Conservative Party membership*, which gives the idea that is what the country wants.
However, at 124k, that is just a tiny proportion (0.9%) even of the over 13.6m people who voted for them in the last election, let alone the nation as a whole. Polling has never shown an overall majority in favour of No Deal.
They are as vulnerable to "echo chambers" as anyone else.
* Not to mention the comments sections below Daily Telegraph articles. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:52 - Mar 26 with 2395 views | Steve_M |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:41 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
The WA is only unpopular because: 1) A lot of people don't want Brexit at all; 2) Some people want instant exit with no WA; 3) Some people don't like the idea of the backstop in case we become trapped by failing to ever negotiate a trade deal; 4) It was negotiated by a Tory government; 5) Some confused people think the WA is the final, permanent arrangement with the EU.
Between those, sometimes overlapping, zones on the Venn diagram of UK political opinion, a negative view of the WA covers very many people, probably a large majority. |
6) It sets up a long transition with no influence over EU rules we will have to follow for that period and the range of possible outcomes is worryingly wide, meaning it settles precisely nothing. Indeed it sets a future cliff edge in a couple of years time.
That's my principle objection to it but the causal throwing away of free movement is high up there too. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:01 - Mar 26 with 2355 views | Guthrum |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:52 - Mar 26 by Steve_M |
6) It sets up a long transition with no influence over EU rules we will have to follow for that period and the range of possible outcomes is worryingly wide, meaning it settles precisely nothing. Indeed it sets a future cliff edge in a couple of years time.
That's my principle objection to it but the causal throwing away of free movement is high up there too. |
Is two years really a long time, given how extended these processes tend to be? Accession to the EU is not exactly quick (and it took us decades to be allowed into the EEC).
It doesn't settle anything. However, due to the nature of the beast, it allows us to be both semi-in and free to negotiate. Buys time and reduces the shock.
Unfortunately, freedom of movement was always going to be one of the first things to go, given immigration was such a hot topic before and during the Referendum campaign. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:06 - Mar 26 with 2340 views | Steve_M |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:01 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
Is two years really a long time, given how extended these processes tend to be? Accession to the EU is not exactly quick (and it took us decades to be allowed into the EEC).
It doesn't settle anything. However, due to the nature of the beast, it allows us to be both semi-in and free to negotiate. Buys time and reduces the shock.
Unfortunately, freedom of movement was always going to be one of the first things to go, given immigration was such a hot topic before and during the Referendum campaign. |
It can be extended once which it inevitably will be so three or four probably, we'll then be somewhere between five and seven years on from the 2016 referendum. I still don't think the trade offs of any future relationship have been adequately addressed in government, let alone the country as a whole.
So it is both a long time and nowhere near enough for what is needed. | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:07 - Mar 26 with 2338 views | Guthrum |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 11:51 - Mar 26 by Herbivore |
This is true, different people dislike it for different reasons but they are united in disliking it. Same would apply to a Norway style deal too I think, despite it seemibg to be a reasonable compromise on a close referendum result. |
The problem which has dogged this whole process is that not enough people agree on any one solution, or are prepared to compromise much. Thus everything gets voted down.
I'm pretty sure that little - other than further confusion - will come out of these "indicative votes". | |
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| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:09 - Mar 26 with 2328 views | Herbivore |
| I see JRM has become a traitorous remoaner then (n/t) on 12:07 - Mar 26 by Guthrum |
The problem which has dogged this whole process is that not enough people agree on any one solution, or are prepared to compromise much. Thus everything gets voted down.
I'm pretty sure that little - other than further confusion - will come out of these "indicative votes". |
Let's put our cards on the table, as a defined option remain has always had the broadest support. Leave is such an ill-defined and fractured group that no one version of leave comes close to having widespread backing. | |
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