| 4 years this week since the referendum on 09:54 - Jun 25 with 1066 views | Pinewoodblue |
Good read . |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:21 - Jun 25 with 1026 views | TJS |
If Labour had selected the correct Miliband brother in 2010 Cameron probably wouldn't have got a majority in 2015, we wouldn't have had a referendum and we would still be in the EU. |  | | |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:41 - Jun 25 with 1001 views | 26_Paz |
Very interesting ... I don’t think that is far out. The big question is whether Cameron would have held on or not ... |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:54 - Jun 25 with 965 views | Darth_Koont |
Hmmm. Your alternative reality is depressingly prosaic. And even that looks unattainable (in what world would a centrist Labour party win back half the seats from the SNP?).
Plodding party politics doesn't indicate much of a direction or vision. It's totally out of step with the challenges the world and the UK are facing. |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:56 - Jun 25 with 955 views | tractordownsouth |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:41 - Jun 25 by 26_Paz |
Very interesting ... I don’t think that is far out. The big question is whether Cameron would have held on or not ... |
He'd have been out by 2019 at the latest as he said he wasn't doing a 3rd term. However, I reckon he'd have been out sooner - in Craig Oliver's book 'Unleashing Demons' he conceded that many in Cameron's inner circle feared they would be out soon after the referendum even if Remain had won |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:00 - Jun 25 with 933 views | 26_Paz |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:56 - Jun 25 by tractordownsouth |
He'd have been out by 2019 at the latest as he said he wasn't doing a 3rd term. However, I reckon he'd have been out sooner - in Craig Oliver's book 'Unleashing Demons' he conceded that many in Cameron's inner circle feared they would be out soon after the referendum even if Remain had won |
Oh yeah, I forgot he’d said he didn’t want a third term. You reckon Boris would have won without the successful leave vote? | |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:05 - Jun 25 with 915 views | tractordownsouth |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 10:54 - Jun 25 by Darth_Koont |
Hmmm. Your alternative reality is depressingly prosaic. And even that looks unattainable (in what world would a centrist Labour party win back half the seats from the SNP?).
Plodding party politics doesn't indicate much of a direction or vision. It's totally out of step with the challenges the world and the UK are facing. |
I'm not convinced the Scotland question is simply one of ideology. I definitely think that Miliband's muddled 2015 campaign allowed the SNP to present themselves as the progressive alternative, which helped them make so many gains. And whilst Corbyn's Labour won some back in 2017, the Tories had twice as many MPs so it's not solely a question of Scotland moving further left.
I think EU membership would probably have cooled the calls for Independence, but only midly. However, having a Labour Party ahead in the polls and a serious prospect of a Labour lead govt may have tipped many of those with lukewarm views on IndyRef2 back towards the party.
To be honest Scotland is a complete poltiical minefield. One thing I'm sure of is that it'll be ridiculously difficult to win it back - the SNP finished 1st or 2nd in every seat in the 2019 election, so there aren't any straight Labour/Tory battles up there anymore. | |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:06 - Jun 25 with 911 views | tractordownsouth |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:00 - Jun 25 by 26_Paz |
Oh yeah, I forgot he’d said he didn’t want a third term. You reckon Boris would have won without the successful leave vote? |
Yeah, I reckon so. I think that was his plan all along, to lose by 1 but increase his chance of power by endearing himself to the Euroscpetic membership. | |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:09 - Jun 25 with 902 views | Darth_Koont |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:05 - Jun 25 by tractordownsouth |
I'm not convinced the Scotland question is simply one of ideology. I definitely think that Miliband's muddled 2015 campaign allowed the SNP to present themselves as the progressive alternative, which helped them make so many gains. And whilst Corbyn's Labour won some back in 2017, the Tories had twice as many MPs so it's not solely a question of Scotland moving further left.
I think EU membership would probably have cooled the calls for Independence, but only midly. However, having a Labour Party ahead in the polls and a serious prospect of a Labour lead govt may have tipped many of those with lukewarm views on IndyRef2 back towards the party.
To be honest Scotland is a complete poltiical minefield. One thing I'm sure of is that it'll be ridiculously difficult to win it back - the SNP finished 1st or 2nd in every seat in the 2019 election, so there aren't any straight Labour/Tory battles up there anymore. |
It's a question of focus. And the last thing Scotland wants to see is a Labour party staring directly into the Establishment's navel.
I'm guessing the same goes for many voters throughout the UK too. | |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 11:27 - Jun 25 with 852 views | clive_baker |
I was in France for the Euros. Remember being absolute battered and we drunk well through the night with some French locals. They were pretty ambivalent towards the EU and said had France had a vote it would probably be the same. I think they were just being nice and sympathetic to my obvious embarrassment at what had unfolded.
TWTD. Allez les bleus. |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 12:37 - Jun 25 with 771 views | Clapham_Junction |
Agree with DK that there's little chance Labour would have regained many seats in Scotland. Labour are done for good up there I'm afraid, paying the price for the pro-union stance and allowing the SNP to position themselves as the party of the left.
If the four candidates mentioned had run in another Labour leadership race, I suspect Corbyn would have trounced them again.
All in all, the whole piece just seem designed to back up a certain viewpoint about Labour. Not just in reference to this, but I do find the description of Corbyn opponents as 'moderate' quite grating. |  | | |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 13:06 - Jun 25 with 721 views | tractordownsouth |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 12:37 - Jun 25 by Clapham_Junction |
Agree with DK that there's little chance Labour would have regained many seats in Scotland. Labour are done for good up there I'm afraid, paying the price for the pro-union stance and allowing the SNP to position themselves as the party of the left.
If the four candidates mentioned had run in another Labour leadership race, I suspect Corbyn would have trounced them again.
All in all, the whole piece just seem designed to back up a certain viewpoint about Labour. Not just in reference to this, but I do find the description of Corbyn opponents as 'moderate' quite grating. |
Fair criticism - maybe i let my own views cloud my judgement. I agree that Scotland now is all but gone for Labour, bar maybe 10 seats. Although it may have been retrievable without the referendum vote, as it's been the defining issue of the last 4 years and represented the political differences between England and Scotland. | |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 14:22 - Jun 25 with 653 views | ElephantintheRoom |
I don't think Nige would go quietly |  |
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| 4 years this week since the referendum on 15:22 - Jun 25 with 602 views | WeWereZombies |
| 4 years this week since the referendum on 13:06 - Jun 25 by tractordownsouth |
Fair criticism - maybe i let my own views cloud my judgement. I agree that Scotland now is all but gone for Labour, bar maybe 10 seats. Although it may have been retrievable without the referendum vote, as it's been the defining issue of the last 4 years and represented the political differences between England and Scotland. |
Labour could win back many Scottish seats, both in Westminster and in Holyrood - and it does not even have to move any further left (or right). However, to do so would involve allowing a Scottish Labour Party to be largely independent of the London office. There is a real hunger for something other than the Scottish National Party amongst many people I know but Labour have made so many mistakes over the last two decades, whether it be in terms of legality (Falkirk vote rigging), blanket support for the 'Nae' vote in 2014 or the Central Office undermining Johann Lambert.
And I will stop there because I have just seen that there is 'breaking news' about Rebbeca Long-Bailey... |  |
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