| Austerity on 15:57 - Jul 28 with 2373 views | Ewan_Oozami |
Richard Murphy is a good read on this topic... |  |
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| Austerity on 16:10 - Jul 28 with 2324 views | Durovigutum |
If only it was so easy. See Argentina or Zimbabwe.
It's about confidence, which in turn is about fiscal policy. QE doesn't impact confidence because the money goes to those who supply the confidence - printing money to give to poor people or public services reduces the value of the holdings of those who define confidence and therefore it reduces. This is less of a problem if you produce much of what you consume or your currency is used to buy every barrel of oil extracted - in these circumstances you can do what you want, but seeing as we import lots then a reduction in confidence and therefore currency value is a problem. Your negate that with interest rates - turn currency we want (USD) into GBP as you can earn better returns. Higher interest rates now would decimate the over leveraged.
It's a mess, of our own over leveraged stupidity, but printing money is not the answer. |  | | |
| Austerity on 16:24 - Jul 28 with 2280 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 16:10 - Jul 28 by Durovigutum |
If only it was so easy. See Argentina or Zimbabwe.
It's about confidence, which in turn is about fiscal policy. QE doesn't impact confidence because the money goes to those who supply the confidence - printing money to give to poor people or public services reduces the value of the holdings of those who define confidence and therefore it reduces. This is less of a problem if you produce much of what you consume or your currency is used to buy every barrel of oil extracted - in these circumstances you can do what you want, but seeing as we import lots then a reduction in confidence and therefore currency value is a problem. Your negate that with interest rates - turn currency we want (USD) into GBP as you can earn better returns. Higher interest rates now would decimate the over leveraged.
It's a mess, of our own over leveraged stupidity, but printing money is not the answer. |
Indeed, printing money is not the answer.
However, the take away from the article is that public sector pay (as with all Government spending) is a political choice. It is never a choice of whether they can afford it. There are many ways it could be funded. No Government has ever said it can't afford to go to war (to paraphrase Mhairi Black - not sure if it was her quote in the first place, either).
What disappoints is the electorate's acceptance of the Government corruptly paying money to its supporters and then reintroducing austerity at the very first opportunity that they think the electorate will accept.
Austerity failed so badly the first time, you would have thought the Government might have learnt the lesson of history. Boris was rumoured to hate the term and yet he so readily has turned back to it. |  |
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| Austerity on 16:41 - Jul 28 with 2236 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
I am just glad that this guy is not in charge of my finances. I can though understand why many on this board might like his ideas. Oh and yes I do agree, it does make a good read, just not a good fiscal policy in my opinion. |  | | |
| Austerity on 12:26 - Jul 29 with 2022 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 16:41 - Jul 28 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
I am just glad that this guy is not in charge of my finances. I can though understand why many on this board might like his ideas. Oh and yes I do agree, it does make a good read, just not a good fiscal policy in my opinion. |
OK. What are you economic qualifications and why do you not see austerity as a political choice?
Why do you think it did not have the desired effect previously? Or was the desired effect simply to increase the divide between the rich and the poor and not to reduce Government debt? | |
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| Austerity on 12:37 - Jul 29 with 2006 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Austerity on 16:41 - Jul 28 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
I am just glad that this guy is not in charge of my finances. I can though understand why many on this board might like his ideas. Oh and yes I do agree, it does make a good read, just not a good fiscal policy in my opinion. |
He wouldn't be suggesting the same solution to your finances, because household finances are totally different to government finances.
What opinion do you have on fiscal policy then? | |
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| Austerity on 12:46 - Jul 29 with 1985 views | lowhouseblue |
| Austerity on 16:10 - Jul 28 by Durovigutum |
If only it was so easy. See Argentina or Zimbabwe.
It's about confidence, which in turn is about fiscal policy. QE doesn't impact confidence because the money goes to those who supply the confidence - printing money to give to poor people or public services reduces the value of the holdings of those who define confidence and therefore it reduces. This is less of a problem if you produce much of what you consume or your currency is used to buy every barrel of oil extracted - in these circumstances you can do what you want, but seeing as we import lots then a reduction in confidence and therefore currency value is a problem. Your negate that with interest rates - turn currency we want (USD) into GBP as you can earn better returns. Higher interest rates now would decimate the over leveraged.
It's a mess, of our own over leveraged stupidity, but printing money is not the answer. |
plus the idea that we are in a period of austerity is just laughable. printing money to pay for core on-going expenditure is a recipe for unsustainability and disaster. in the end if you want to spend more on public services on a long-term basis someone has to pay more tax. that's not a bad thing but we ought to be honest about it. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Austerity on 13:20 - Jul 29 with 1942 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
I do not believe the word austerity was mentioned in the article and it can be summarised briefly as saying 'you can pay what you want to who you want, just keep printing the money'.
I have been asked what my fiscal policy would be! Very briefly to achieve high employment, keep inflation low (yes the article was correct about inflation ideal being about 2%), increase the minimum wage, have a full, understandable and fair care policy, keep investing in our infrastructure, keep business taxation as low as possible, we need to increase the level of taxation paid by most of us. Unpalatable I am aware but the only real option.
Simple really.... | | | |
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| Austerity on 13:23 - Jul 29 with 1931 views | mylittletown |
| Austerity on 16:41 - Jul 28 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
I am just glad that this guy is not in charge of my finances. I can though understand why many on this board might like his ideas. Oh and yes I do agree, it does make a good read, just not a good fiscal policy in my opinion. |
Therein lies one of the ongoing problems with the representation of political choices about our national economy.
Ever since Margaret Thatcher's stupid continued comparison of the national budget with domestic budgets, we have to put up with people making the same assumption that there is any similarity between the two, and drawing completely false conclusions as a result. |  | | |
| Austerity on 13:32 - Jul 29 with 1915 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 12:46 - Jul 29 by lowhouseblue |
plus the idea that we are in a period of austerity is just laughable. printing money to pay for core on-going expenditure is a recipe for unsustainability and disaster. in the end if you want to spend more on public services on a long-term basis someone has to pay more tax. that's not a bad thing but we ought to be honest about it. |
You didn't read the article did you? EDIT: or you wouldn't be talking about printing money which was brought up by someone else in the thread.
Which bit of freezing public sector pay again is not austerity? [Post edited 29 Jul 2021 13:33]
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| Austerity on 13:32 - Jul 29 with 1913 views | Darth_Koont |
| Austerity on 13:20 - Jul 29 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
I do not believe the word austerity was mentioned in the article and it can be summarised briefly as saying 'you can pay what you want to who you want, just keep printing the money'.
I have been asked what my fiscal policy would be! Very briefly to achieve high employment, keep inflation low (yes the article was correct about inflation ideal being about 2%), increase the minimum wage, have a full, understandable and fair care policy, keep investing in our infrastructure, keep business taxation as low as possible, we need to increase the level of taxation paid by most of us. Unpalatable I am aware but the only real option.
Simple really.... |
Agree with much of the rest. But why low business tax? We’re already at the low end of the OECD nations?
I actually think businesses and the middle/upper classes in general need a bit of a stick rather than a carrot to boost the UK’s low productivity. It’s may be a bit too easy to make money out of low taxation and low wages and not actually develop a sustainable and competitive business. |  |
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| Austerity on 13:38 - Jul 29 with 1897 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 13:32 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
Agree with much of the rest. But why low business tax? We’re already at the low end of the OECD nations?
I actually think businesses and the middle/upper classes in general need a bit of a stick rather than a carrot to boost the UK’s low productivity. It’s may be a bit too easy to make money out of low taxation and low wages and not actually develop a sustainable and competitive business. |
We also need to stop enabling larger businesses and richer individuals to avoid paying tax. A fairer tax system would go a long way to solving many of the funding problems.
And to answer the other poster's point, yes, the article did not itself mention the term austerity but austerity is the description for this Government's political choice to lower public sector pay (which is the effect of perpetual pay freezes while inflation is above 0%).
What really gets me is the Government's willingness to increase MP pay and to waste billions on contracts for their donors and relatives and yet it is the immigrants and greedy public sector workers who are seen to be the problem. | |
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| Austerity on 14:00 - Jul 29 with 1868 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Austerity on 16:10 - Jul 28 by Durovigutum |
If only it was so easy. See Argentina or Zimbabwe.
It's about confidence, which in turn is about fiscal policy. QE doesn't impact confidence because the money goes to those who supply the confidence - printing money to give to poor people or public services reduces the value of the holdings of those who define confidence and therefore it reduces. This is less of a problem if you produce much of what you consume or your currency is used to buy every barrel of oil extracted - in these circumstances you can do what you want, but seeing as we import lots then a reduction in confidence and therefore currency value is a problem. Your negate that with interest rates - turn currency we want (USD) into GBP as you can earn better returns. Higher interest rates now would decimate the over leveraged.
It's a mess, of our own over leveraged stupidity, but printing money is not the answer. |
So basically you're agreeing with the article, that the finacial systems exists only to protect the wealthy? | |
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| Austerity on 14:20 - Jul 29 with 1846 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Austerity on 13:38 - Jul 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
We also need to stop enabling larger businesses and richer individuals to avoid paying tax. A fairer tax system would go a long way to solving many of the funding problems.
And to answer the other poster's point, yes, the article did not itself mention the term austerity but austerity is the description for this Government's political choice to lower public sector pay (which is the effect of perpetual pay freezes while inflation is above 0%).
What really gets me is the Government's willingness to increase MP pay and to waste billions on contracts for their donors and relatives and yet it is the immigrants and greedy public sector workers who are seen to be the problem. |
We do need of course to try and take the politics out of all this. This and our stupid so called class system does hold us back. In my opinion if you have to work to live then you are working class - there need be no other class. Similarly, not all wealthy folk are bad or vote Conservative, the same as not all poorer folk are perfect and vote Labour!
I agree that ALL should pay their fair level of tax whatever ones financial position. I am in my 55th of paying income tax, and it is something of which I am rather proud.
Small businesses are the backbone of our economy and it is tough out there for a lot of them. Keeping business rates low for example is vital and yep being one of the lower taxing nations for businesses within the OECD, I believe to be a positive.
The personal tax allowance of £12570 is a lot higher than it was; ideally it would continue to rise so it meant that anyone on minimum wage would be exempt from paying tax - pie in the sky I guess but hey what a good objective. I would do away with the current triple lock on pensions to help pay for this. (by the way I would lose out!).
I do not believe in increasing tax percentages just for those on higher earnings; there does though need to be a lot more done about businesses who evade paying their fair share of taxation and more done to eliminate the more shady tax avoidance schemes.
Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!
Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail. | | | |
| Austerity on 14:28 - Jul 29 with 1826 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 14:20 - Jul 29 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
We do need of course to try and take the politics out of all this. This and our stupid so called class system does hold us back. In my opinion if you have to work to live then you are working class - there need be no other class. Similarly, not all wealthy folk are bad or vote Conservative, the same as not all poorer folk are perfect and vote Labour!
I agree that ALL should pay their fair level of tax whatever ones financial position. I am in my 55th of paying income tax, and it is something of which I am rather proud.
Small businesses are the backbone of our economy and it is tough out there for a lot of them. Keeping business rates low for example is vital and yep being one of the lower taxing nations for businesses within the OECD, I believe to be a positive.
The personal tax allowance of £12570 is a lot higher than it was; ideally it would continue to rise so it meant that anyone on minimum wage would be exempt from paying tax - pie in the sky I guess but hey what a good objective. I would do away with the current triple lock on pensions to help pay for this. (by the way I would lose out!).
I do not believe in increasing tax percentages just for those on higher earnings; there does though need to be a lot more done about businesses who evade paying their fair share of taxation and more done to eliminate the more shady tax avoidance schemes.
Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!
Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail. |
"Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!" an interesting comment on a thread about the Government freezing pay and the fact it is clearly a political choice and not an economic inevitability.
"the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail." The last election, Labour fully costed a manifesto supported by examination by multiple economists. This statement makes no sense whatsoever. EDIT: especially in the context of trying to keep politics out of this! [Post edited 29 Jul 2021 14:29]
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| Austerity on 14:28 - Jul 29 with 1825 views | XYZ |
| Austerity on 14:20 - Jul 29 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
We do need of course to try and take the politics out of all this. This and our stupid so called class system does hold us back. In my opinion if you have to work to live then you are working class - there need be no other class. Similarly, not all wealthy folk are bad or vote Conservative, the same as not all poorer folk are perfect and vote Labour!
I agree that ALL should pay their fair level of tax whatever ones financial position. I am in my 55th of paying income tax, and it is something of which I am rather proud.
Small businesses are the backbone of our economy and it is tough out there for a lot of them. Keeping business rates low for example is vital and yep being one of the lower taxing nations for businesses within the OECD, I believe to be a positive.
The personal tax allowance of £12570 is a lot higher than it was; ideally it would continue to rise so it meant that anyone on minimum wage would be exempt from paying tax - pie in the sky I guess but hey what a good objective. I would do away with the current triple lock on pensions to help pay for this. (by the way I would lose out!).
I do not believe in increasing tax percentages just for those on higher earnings; there does though need to be a lot more done about businesses who evade paying their fair share of taxation and more done to eliminate the more shady tax avoidance schemes.
Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!
Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail. |
"Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail."
Labour's 2019 manifesto was, I believe, fully costed.
The tories' 2019 manifesto wasn't, I believe and the english press hardly questioned them about it - Johnson was hiding in a fridge, if you recall. | | | |
| Austerity on 14:33 - Jul 29 with 1806 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 14:28 - Jul 29 by XYZ |
"Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail."
Labour's 2019 manifesto was, I believe, fully costed.
The tories' 2019 manifesto wasn't, I believe and the english press hardly questioned them about it - Johnson was hiding in a fridge, if you recall. |
And yet so many continue to believe in the myth that the Conservatives are the party of financial responsibility and Labour are the wasteful spenders.
If only the electorate generally could be educated into the benefits of taxation with good spending instead of low taxation and supporting the rich and private sector instead. | |
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| Austerity on 14:40 - Jul 29 with 1787 views | Darth_Koont |
| Austerity on 14:33 - Jul 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
And yet so many continue to believe in the myth that the Conservatives are the party of financial responsibility and Labour are the wasteful spenders.
If only the electorate generally could be educated into the benefits of taxation with good spending instead of low taxation and supporting the rich and private sector instead. |
For starters, they could look at pretty much the rest of Northern Europe. It’s not as if this is some wacky theory – higher taxes and higher investment pay off in practice.
But this is where our media is utterly shocking and living in a bubble. Even re: borrowing, it took the pandemic for the BBC to explain that no, as a matter of fact state economics were nothing at all like a household budget. | |
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| Austerity on 14:42 - Jul 29 with 1781 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Austerity on 14:28 - Jul 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!" an interesting comment on a thread about the Government freezing pay and the fact it is clearly a political choice and not an economic inevitability.
"the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail." The last election, Labour fully costed a manifesto supported by examination by multiple economists. This statement makes no sense whatsoever. EDIT: especially in the context of trying to keep politics out of this! [Post edited 29 Jul 2021 14:29]
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The thread is entitled Austerity and contained an article that as I said suggested you can pay anyone whatever you want!
Ok, my point of view for what it is worth is that Carers in care homes are the most underpaid folk in the country - I would not - even could not, do their job for £50 an hour!
The Police I do not believe have such a case to make out. Otherwise I have not yet met a man or woman who believes they are overpaid! | | | |
| Austerity on 15:05 - Jul 29 with 1745 views | lowhouseblue |
| Austerity on 13:32 - Jul 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
You didn't read the article did you? EDIT: or you wouldn't be talking about printing money which was brought up by someone else in the thread.
Which bit of freezing public sector pay again is not austerity? [Post edited 29 Jul 2021 13:33]
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yes i read the article. it was stunningly poor. printing money is the term of art for what the article is describing.
if you think we are currently in austerity then we'll definitely leave it here. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Austerity on 15:17 - Jul 29 with 1715 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 15:05 - Jul 29 by lowhouseblue |
yes i read the article. it was stunningly poor. printing money is the term of art for what the article is describing.
if you think we are currently in austerity then we'll definitely leave it here. |
Fair enough. The article did mention printing money but explained why it wasn't required but never mind that. There were certainly aspects of the article that were presented in a skewed fashion, I would have granted you that.
Austerity: "a difficult economic situation caused by a government reducing the amount of money it spends:" from Cambridge Dictionary. This Government has stated there is not the money to pay the nurses, police or teachers a pay rise. It will be a different story when the MP pay rise comes up.
Why you don't believe this Government has returned to austerity in this approach astounds me. | |
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| Austerity on 15:24 - Jul 29 with 1694 views | lowhouseblue |
| Austerity on 15:17 - Jul 29 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Fair enough. The article did mention printing money but explained why it wasn't required but never mind that. There were certainly aspects of the article that were presented in a skewed fashion, I would have granted you that.
Austerity: "a difficult economic situation caused by a government reducing the amount of money it spends:" from Cambridge Dictionary. This Government has stated there is not the money to pay the nurses, police or teachers a pay rise. It will be a different story when the MP pay rise comes up.
Why you don't believe this Government has returned to austerity in this approach astounds me. |
obviously the government's control of the money supply doesn't only involve 'printed' currency. in the modern times 'printing money' is generally used to refer to the government expanding the monetary base by other means.
"Austerity: "a difficult economic situation caused by a government reducing the amount of money it spends". quite.
do you really think that in the past 2 years the government has been reducing the amount of money it spends?? we have seen a splurge of spending unprecedented outside of war time. this is not by your own definition a time of austerity. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Austerity on 15:31 - Jul 29 with 1677 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Austerity on 15:24 - Jul 29 by lowhouseblue |
obviously the government's control of the money supply doesn't only involve 'printed' currency. in the modern times 'printing money' is generally used to refer to the government expanding the monetary base by other means.
"Austerity: "a difficult economic situation caused by a government reducing the amount of money it spends". quite.
do you really think that in the past 2 years the government has been reducing the amount of money it spends?? we have seen a splurge of spending unprecedented outside of war time. this is not by your own definition a time of austerity. |
Would that "splurge of spending" have happened without Covid? | |
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| Austerity on 15:32 - Jul 29 with 1667 views | thebooks |
| Austerity on 14:20 - Jul 29 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
We do need of course to try and take the politics out of all this. This and our stupid so called class system does hold us back. In my opinion if you have to work to live then you are working class - there need be no other class. Similarly, not all wealthy folk are bad or vote Conservative, the same as not all poorer folk are perfect and vote Labour!
I agree that ALL should pay their fair level of tax whatever ones financial position. I am in my 55th of paying income tax, and it is something of which I am rather proud.
Small businesses are the backbone of our economy and it is tough out there for a lot of them. Keeping business rates low for example is vital and yep being one of the lower taxing nations for businesses within the OECD, I believe to be a positive.
The personal tax allowance of £12570 is a lot higher than it was; ideally it would continue to rise so it meant that anyone on minimum wage would be exempt from paying tax - pie in the sky I guess but hey what a good objective. I would do away with the current triple lock on pensions to help pay for this. (by the way I would lose out!).
I do not believe in increasing tax percentages just for those on higher earnings; there does though need to be a lot more done about businesses who evade paying their fair share of taxation and more done to eliminate the more shady tax avoidance schemes.
Who gets paid what is an area that I refuse to debate - we all have our opinions and of course I have mine!
Finally, one issue that the Labour party keeps on tripping itself over is telling the public how it will finance its ambitions. It is very easy to promise this and promise that without all of the detail. |
“In my opinion if you have to work to live then you are working class”. Cool, that’s Marx’s starting point, and neatly skewers the idea it’s about capuccinos and avacado.
Unfortunately, impossible to take the politics out of it.
Agree about the personal tax allowance — there are lots of ways to make taxation fairer and working class people better off.
I don’t want to have a worse pension in the name of spurious “fairness”, thanks.
Labour has traditionally been far more fiscally “responsible” than the Tories, and, as has been pointed out in this thread, costed their last manifesto (although that’s PR more than anything else). |  | | |
| Austerity on 15:34 - Jul 29 with 1661 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Austerity on 15:24 - Jul 29 by lowhouseblue |
obviously the government's control of the money supply doesn't only involve 'printed' currency. in the modern times 'printing money' is generally used to refer to the government expanding the monetary base by other means.
"Austerity: "a difficult economic situation caused by a government reducing the amount of money it spends". quite.
do you really think that in the past 2 years the government has been reducing the amount of money it spends?? we have seen a splurge of spending unprecedented outside of war time. this is not by your own definition a time of austerity. |
I am not talking about the past 2 years. I am talking about the Government's current policy. Now.
They are saying there is no money (using Covid as the reason). This is a political choice as there is money for them to do what they choose to do. That is the very point. They are now returning to austerity as a policy choice. I never said they had been over the past 2 years. | |
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