| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market 14:25 - Sep 24 with 1491 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
I've seen a few people, including Tobias Ellwood of the Nasty Party, calling recently for the UK to rejoin the Single Market as a way of kickstarting the economy again.
Starmer said a couple of months ago that there was no chance.
Is this a firm stance of 'never going to happen in my name', or there a realistic chance it will be U-turned upon when (hopefully) Labour come into power?
Of course it would mean the return of the freedom of movement of people which Brexiteers wanted rid of, however 2/3 of Labour voters wanted to remain, so it's not like it would be political suicide. |  |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 14:33 - Sep 24 with 1443 views | tractordownsouth |
Re-running the referendum issue would be a complete gift to the Tories, despite the positive economic impact it would have. If Labour win next time, it could be something they could have the political capital to do in the 2nd term, if the Tories are still sufficiently untrusted after the current sh1tshow. |  |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 14:47 - Sep 24 with 1402 views | BlueBadger |
I think it's probably still seen as 1) electorally toxic and 2) it's an open goal for press and Tories.
So far, there's been a handy excuse for economic turmoil(pandemics, Putin, etc). 5 years down the road might be different. |  |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 14:50 - Sep 24 with 1388 views | Radlett_blue |
It would certainly hurt Labour in the "Red Wall" seats, which they need to regain if they are to have any chance of forming government again. I guess Starmer will stay schtum on these, like most other big issues, as voters turf out unpopular governments, rather than vote in Opposition parties. |  |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 15:27 - Sep 24 with 1331 views | HARRY10 |
The mistake is to think that it would be a unilateral decision. ie that of the UK. So any talk of a referendum is a bit pointless.
What is known is that the UK is already moving back towards the EU. Something that was always inevitable if only for the requirements of trade. An increase in visas, and the abandonment of import controls. gives evidence to that. The infrastructure for the latter has not even begun to be built in most cases. On the basis it will never be used so why build it.
The ban on smoking would have caused uproar pre 1980s. But as those who smoked died off, objections to a ban became less. The ban was gradual and in tune with that thinking.
Much as will happen with the EU. Up to a year ago brexiters were able, and did, make all manner of dishonest claims, with no evidence to the contrary. Trusses admission this week that a trade deal with the US is way off was another in a long list of brexit lies debunked (remember way back when smoking was promoted as good for your health).
There is no benefit for any of the opposition in getting bogged down in past battles. There is little they can do to speed up the process of re aligning the UK with the EU, so it would merely be time and resources wasted. Take a look at what is happening in Iran. Widespread revolt against the old order, just as there is now revolt against Putin. Both are revolts against repressive regimes, that have now have provided a cause to focus and rally around. What that might be with brexit is not known, but the daily irritants it causes will undoubtedly be brought to a head at some point.
As said, the pandemic, has masked much of the damage of brexit. Producing this last futile effort of turning back the tide - an almost banzai charge of stupidity, hoping to over turn the inevitable, a Tory election defeat.
Commerce, trade, business etc is already moving.....it is merely when the public moods shifts far enough that politics will follow. |  | | |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 15:57 - Sep 24 with 1278 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 14:50 - Sep 24 by Radlett_blue |
It would certainly hurt Labour in the "Red Wall" seats, which they need to regain if they are to have any chance of forming government again. I guess Starmer will stay schtum on these, like most other big issues, as voters turf out unpopular governments, rather than vote in Opposition parties. |
England was divided into regions when the referendum result was analysed. In only one English region was there a majority to remain. That region was London.
London is a Labour stronghold, it is in regions where the majority voted leave that hold the key to Labour winning the next election. A Labour election campaign that included turning the clock back on the single market would be political suicide.
Look at the Map in page 6 of the link and then consider where Labour needs to gain seats to win the next election.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7639/CBP-7639.pdf [Post edited 24 Sep 2022 16:04]
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 16:01 - Sep 24 with 1257 views | BlueBadger |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 15:57 - Sep 24 by Pinewoodblue |
England was divided into regions when the referendum result was analysed. In only one English region was there a majority to remain. That region was London.
London is a Labour stronghold, it is in regions where the majority voted leave that hold the key to Labour winning the next election. A Labour election campaign that included turning the clock back on the single market would be political suicide.
Look at the Map in page 6 of the link and then consider where Labour needs to gain seats to win the next election.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7639/CBP-7639.pdf [Post edited 24 Sep 2022 16:04]
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The Blue Passports and No Foreigners crowd still don't think that a substantial part of our economic woes are down to Putin and Covid. Sadly, more of the people who voted to leave the SM will be hurt by not being in it before we're able to have a grown-up conversation about rejoining it again. | |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 16:06 - Sep 24 with 1233 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 16:01 - Sep 24 by BlueBadger |
The Blue Passports and No Foreigners crowd still don't think that a substantial part of our economic woes are down to Putin and Covid. Sadly, more of the people who voted to leave the SM will be hurt by not being in it before we're able to have a grown-up conversation about rejoining it again. |
That’s why it is a risk Starmer in unlikely to take. | |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 16:36 - Sep 24 with 1158 views | HARRY10 |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 15:57 - Sep 24 by Pinewoodblue |
England was divided into regions when the referendum result was analysed. In only one English region was there a majority to remain. That region was London.
London is a Labour stronghold, it is in regions where the majority voted leave that hold the key to Labour winning the next election. A Labour election campaign that included turning the clock back on the single market would be political suicide.
Look at the Map in page 6 of the link and then consider where Labour needs to gain seats to win the next election.
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7639/CBP-7639.pdf [Post edited 24 Sep 2022 16:04]
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Since Jan 2022 Labour have held a comfortable and increasing lead - currently one that would give them a 30 odd seat majority, without including tactical voting. I have no doubt this will increase this winter.
There will not be any referendim. Just as there is never a jury trial without a judge.
Turkey was never going to join the EU as Farage consistently lied about. Never mind what the UK thought, Greece would always veto their admission.
Which brings us onto the futility of the UK having a referendim, as if any act of the UK re-joining is dependent on us. It is not. Anyone of the 27 can veto our re-joining. If only to get a better deal for themselves.
We will continue as we are. Allowing business to move ever closer, rather than some absurd idea of it being a sudden in or out decision. | | | |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 18:26 - Sep 24 with 1071 views | Lord_Mac |
Rejoining the Single Market and rejoining the EU are different. At the moment, there is a majority who think that leaving the EU was a mistake, but not (yet) a majority for rejoining the EU. That will change as our financial predicament continues to worsen, and as Leave voters die off in greater numbers than Remain voters.
The UK will have to rejoin the Single Market or our economy will continue to collapse - there is no way that the loss in trade can ever be substituted by trading with distant lands. Add to that the loss of financial passporting rights and the loss of the Euro clearing business which will happen in 2024, which will be an even bigger blow to British coffers.
I expect that we will rejoin the SM/CU in the second opposition term. By then it may even have Tory support!
It may take two decades to rejoin the EU, and even when we do, it won't restore all the economic damage that leaving has caused and continues to cause. That will take 50 years to repair.
The EU will support Britain rejoining as long as there is no chance of us changing our mind. Hopefully we will have abolished the First Past the Post system by then as well, so that we never have to endure a neo-fascist government again. If that is achieved, we have a lot more to offer as a country looking to join that one looking to leave. We add a sixth to the size of the Single Market, it solves the Irish issue at a stroke, and it's a great PR message to any countries looking to do the same thing. Our NHS, fishermen and farmers will have someone looking after their interests, instead of being thrown under the bus. We might even be able to renegotiate the opt-outs which gave us the best deal of any member country. | |
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| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 21:19 - Sep 24 with 901 views | BlueForYou |
I happen to be on holiday for a week in Montenegro. I was reading about their history. When Yugoslavia broke up, they partnered with Serbia (& avoided much of the conflict), but years later held an Independence referendum. From memory the result was 55.4% in favour of Independence. The rules set were that the winning side had to achieve a win of 55/45% in favour. Personally I could never understand why there was no requirement for a much clearer majority here.That would have been so sensible, & a 10% clear majority leaves far less doubt. Why is it that we can’t do sensible things here in the UK? |  | | |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 01:09 - Sep 25 with 764 views | HARRY10 |
| Starmer and rejoining the Single Market on 18:26 - Sep 24 by Lord_Mac |
Rejoining the Single Market and rejoining the EU are different. At the moment, there is a majority who think that leaving the EU was a mistake, but not (yet) a majority for rejoining the EU. That will change as our financial predicament continues to worsen, and as Leave voters die off in greater numbers than Remain voters.
The UK will have to rejoin the Single Market or our economy will continue to collapse - there is no way that the loss in trade can ever be substituted by trading with distant lands. Add to that the loss of financial passporting rights and the loss of the Euro clearing business which will happen in 2024, which will be an even bigger blow to British coffers.
I expect that we will rejoin the SM/CU in the second opposition term. By then it may even have Tory support!
It may take two decades to rejoin the EU, and even when we do, it won't restore all the economic damage that leaving has caused and continues to cause. That will take 50 years to repair.
The EU will support Britain rejoining as long as there is no chance of us changing our mind. Hopefully we will have abolished the First Past the Post system by then as well, so that we never have to endure a neo-fascist government again. If that is achieved, we have a lot more to offer as a country looking to join that one looking to leave. We add a sixth to the size of the Single Market, it solves the Irish issue at a stroke, and it's a great PR message to any countries looking to do the same thing. Our NHS, fishermen and farmers will have someone looking after their interests, instead of being thrown under the bus. We might even be able to renegotiate the opt-outs which gave us the best deal of any member country. |
I'm not sure if the UK will be allowed to rejoin the SM and CU, and I expect that it will be a slow erosion of regulations - just as todays Times is carrying a story about further loosening of immigrant visas.
As said the movement closer will be that of business slowly slowly catchee monkey.
Real electoral reform is not taking a mssive step back by bringing in a system of unaccountable elctions and MPs - thats why it has never caught on. Take a look at NI where local elections atre PR and you will see a non working system, that is dominated by the DUP.
If there are cretins ready to believe Farage and Johnson something drastic needs to change. Every leaver I have spoken to over six years hasn;'t a fcking clue about the EU, or how it works. Even when pointing out there is a Parliament I have been repeatedly told that all ecisions are made by unelected berr o crats. even the hakfwits that say we should be back in the Single Market are too stupid to recognise that it would put us in a very undemocratic place. Accepting rules with no input.
i would be curious to hear of ANY Tory measures the Libdems were able to stop. The larger party will simply put up something that they will happily trade off, as they did in 2017. The danger is that when voters come to grasp what PR means they will turn further away from politics.
The uncomfortable truth for many is that what has occurred over the past 12 months is because enough voters were prepared to accept it, and it is presumed that were seats assigned on the basis of votes cast the Tories would have been in a minority and therefore not in power.
That has that the opposition is one unified block. It is not. How many libdem voters voted for the coalition ? It was around 3 (?) Libdems who negotiated and agreed to go into collation with the Tories. There are far more Libdems who when push comes to shove are basically Tories. Every GE under PR would be push coming to shove.
Peddling this PR alchemy is dangerous (as above). What needs to happen is for the Lords to replaced with a PR elected chamber of far fewer members. As the final say is with the lower house then there is no danger of horse trading. And end so much of the archaic ritual in the Commons.
Appoint a Speaker with the powers to act like a judge, not the cap doffing Scullion* we have now. Cut the farmyard noises, require minsters to answer the questions and have swifter recall and sanction procedures. No second jobs, unless to update job qualifications. NO BARRISTERS working full time 'on the side' - and most importantly NO relatives to be employed.
It is not any contradiction to have the 2nd chamber elected on a PR basis.I doubt any voter would have the slightest idea of those standing, whereas the various parties would. No member of the Lords represents a constituency. Whereas PR removes voters accountability, both at the election and through local control. | | | |
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