| Mendy cleared of all charges now 15:47 - Jul 14 with 2980 views | Reus30 |
Well, didn't see that coming.
It's been years since we have seen him, will he come back? Decent player for City at the time before all the accusations started. |  | | |  |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 18:17 - Jul 14 with 2765 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
If he has been keeping himself fit maybe. But never at the same level again. |  |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 20:08 - Jul 14 with 2657 views | gtsb1966 |
Ched Evans was cleared too yet that was wrong according to a couple of posters on here. The British justice system eh. |  | | |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 20:57 - Jul 14 with 2592 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 20:08 - Jul 14 by gtsb1966 |
Ched Evans was cleared too yet that was wrong according to a couple of posters on here. The British justice system eh. |
Neither of them have been "cleared" of anything. |  |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:08 - Jul 14 with 2559 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 20:57 - Jul 14 by LankHenners |
Neither of them have been "cleared" of anything. |
Not guilty on all charges. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:31 - Jul 14 with 2520 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:08 - Jul 14 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Not guilty on all charges. |
Yes I can read. Could be wrong but I always thought it was deemed inaccurate to use 'cleared' in such cases as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused. Don't really want to open up old arguments but the Ched Evans case is pretty much a perfect example of why so many sexual assaults don't even get reported in the first place let alone get near a court. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:41 - Jul 14 with 2489 views | Oldsmoker |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:31 - Jul 14 by LankHenners |
Yes I can read. Could be wrong but I always thought it was deemed inaccurate to use 'cleared' in such cases as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused. Don't really want to open up old arguments but the Ched Evans case is pretty much a perfect example of why so many sexual assaults don't even get reported in the first place let alone get near a court. |
What he said. |  |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 22:02 - Jul 14 with 2445 views | Sharkey |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:31 - Jul 14 by LankHenners |
Yes I can read. Could be wrong but I always thought it was deemed inaccurate to use 'cleared' in such cases as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused. Don't really want to open up old arguments but the Ched Evans case is pretty much a perfect example of why so many sexual assaults don't even get reported in the first place let alone get near a court. |
One of the better quips I ever heard at a football game was when watching Malmö F. F., who had a Nigerian midfielder by the name of Bonke Innocent. There was some talk at the time that he might move to Celtic. Someone pointed out that then the name on the back of his shirt would have to be changed to 'Not Proven'. |  | | |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 23:26 - Jul 14 with 2314 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 20:08 - Jul 14 by gtsb1966 |
Ched Evans was cleared too yet that was wrong according to a couple of posters on here. The British justice system eh. |
The eventual decision to quash Ched Evans' conviction was unprecedented in British legal history. He got an extra, extra Appeal after losing through the entire usual Appeals process.
The amount of harassment of the key witness should give concern to anyone.
The offering of payments for material to discredit the witness should give concern to anyone.
His conviction was eventually declared unsound.
Personally I would have liked the two people who filmed the sexual acts being performed on the woman to have faced prosecution.
As well as those who harassed the woman after the conviction, and revealed her new identity. |  | | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 07:31 - Jul 15 with 2077 views | TalkingBlues |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:31 - Jul 14 by LankHenners |
Yes I can read. Could be wrong but I always thought it was deemed inaccurate to use 'cleared' in such cases as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused. Don't really want to open up old arguments but the Ched Evans case is pretty much a perfect example of why so many sexual assaults don't even get reported in the first place let alone get near a court. |
100%, we’ll said sir.
There’s so much material to cover on everything surrounding the UK Justice System that we’d be dead before finishing the conversation, but in essence, it’s broken, completely and utterly broken, in just about every aspect. |  |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 07:44 - Jul 15 with 2068 views | lowhouseblue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 21:31 - Jul 14 by LankHenners |
Yes I can read. Could be wrong but I always thought it was deemed inaccurate to use 'cleared' in such cases as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused. Don't really want to open up old arguments but the Ched Evans case is pretty much a perfect example of why so many sexual assaults don't even get reported in the first place let alone get near a court. |
so you would really send people to prison for lengthy terms on the basis of something other than beyond reasonable doubt? there's another reasonable explanation based upon all of the evidence but you'd still deprive people of their liberty. wow. just wow. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 08:49 - Jul 15 with 1947 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 07:44 - Jul 15 by lowhouseblue |
so you would really send people to prison for lengthy terms on the basis of something other than beyond reasonable doubt? there's another reasonable explanation based upon all of the evidence but you'd still deprive people of their liberty. wow. just wow. |
That’s not at all what I said you disingenuous berk. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:21 - Jul 15 with 1879 views | lowhouseblue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 08:49 - Jul 15 by LankHenners |
That’s not at all what I said you disingenuous berk. |
ok then perhaps you need to write more clearly and avoid things like: "as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused."? unintentionally, clearly, it certainly reads as if you are criticising beyond reasonable doubt. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:42 - Jul 15 with 1807 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:21 - Jul 15 by lowhouseblue |
ok then perhaps you need to write more clearly and avoid things like: "as the burden of proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused."? unintentionally, clearly, it certainly reads as if you are criticising beyond reasonable doubt. |
No it doesn’t, no-one else thought that other than you. It’s just true, as anyone who’s ever been involved in such a case in any capacity will tell you, that it’s incredibly difficult to convince a jury to return a guilty verdict as the reasonable doubt rests on whether the accused *thought* what they were doing was consensual (or more accurately, the defence puts it in the jury’s mind that that could have been the case). Obviously that leads to a situation where it makes it near impossible for the jury to definitively say what happened so can only return not guilty.
Clearly you have to be very very sure to convict someone of any crime and I don’t really have an alternative suggestion but it’s evident that it makes it very hard for victims of sexual assault to get justice. I was just showing sympathy with that to a poster’s inference that ‘not guilty’ = ‘did nothing wrong’ which isn’t true. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:48 - Jul 15 with 1795 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:42 - Jul 15 by LankHenners |
No it doesn’t, no-one else thought that other than you. It’s just true, as anyone who’s ever been involved in such a case in any capacity will tell you, that it’s incredibly difficult to convince a jury to return a guilty verdict as the reasonable doubt rests on whether the accused *thought* what they were doing was consensual (or more accurately, the defence puts it in the jury’s mind that that could have been the case). Obviously that leads to a situation where it makes it near impossible for the jury to definitively say what happened so can only return not guilty.
Clearly you have to be very very sure to convict someone of any crime and I don’t really have an alternative suggestion but it’s evident that it makes it very hard for victims of sexual assault to get justice. I was just showing sympathy with that to a poster’s inference that ‘not guilty’ = ‘did nothing wrong’ which isn’t true. |
To be completely clear. What is it you are saying specifically about Benjamin Mendy?
If, as I suspect, it's, "No smoke without fire" then what I said about him never playing at this level again is entirely correct.
Not guilty on all counts or not, he is seen as guilty by association. Playing devils advocate, let's say he genuinely did nothing wrong, that means our justice system is inherently flawed.
And the exact same applies, but for the victims, if he did indeed do something wrong.
Everyone loses. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:09 - Jul 15 with 1745 views | lowhouseblue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:42 - Jul 15 by LankHenners |
No it doesn’t, no-one else thought that other than you. It’s just true, as anyone who’s ever been involved in such a case in any capacity will tell you, that it’s incredibly difficult to convince a jury to return a guilty verdict as the reasonable doubt rests on whether the accused *thought* what they were doing was consensual (or more accurately, the defence puts it in the jury’s mind that that could have been the case). Obviously that leads to a situation where it makes it near impossible for the jury to definitively say what happened so can only return not guilty.
Clearly you have to be very very sure to convict someone of any crime and I don’t really have an alternative suggestion but it’s evident that it makes it very hard for victims of sexual assault to get justice. I was just showing sympathy with that to a poster’s inference that ‘not guilty’ = ‘did nothing wrong’ which isn’t true. |
ok but what often distinguishes sexual assault as a crime is the evidential basis rather than the appropriate burden of proof. the burden of proof is the same in the trial of all crimes - you wouldn't say that the proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused when it's a murder trial? but with sexual assaults you often have no independent evidence, just two opposed accounts, and forensic evidence can be not inconsistent with the two opposing accounts. so i don't see the 'burden of proof' as at all the issue (just as it isn't with murderer trials). the issue is court procedure, investigatory procedure, and what evidence the court disallows and how it instructs jurors. civil courts can hear cases which effectively amount to serious sexual assault or rape and do so on the basis of balance of probabilities and are therefore much more likely to find for the complainant, but that would not be a good basis on which to put someone in prison. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:10 - Jul 15 with 1732 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 09:48 - Jul 15 by Cheltenham_Blue |
To be completely clear. What is it you are saying specifically about Benjamin Mendy?
If, as I suspect, it's, "No smoke without fire" then what I said about him never playing at this level again is entirely correct.
Not guilty on all counts or not, he is seen as guilty by association. Playing devils advocate, let's say he genuinely did nothing wrong, that means our justice system is inherently flawed.
And the exact same applies, but for the victims, if he did indeed do something wrong.
Everyone loses. |
I didn’t say anything specifically about this case and I don’t really appreciate yet another poster putting words in my mouth and claiming I’m saying something I’m not. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:13 - Jul 15 with 1704 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:10 - Jul 15 by LankHenners |
I didn’t say anything specifically about this case and I don’t really appreciate yet another poster putting words in my mouth and claiming I’m saying something I’m not. |
Well stop posting guff then.
Tried to have a decent conversation with you. You've refused.
0/10. | |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:15 - Jul 15 with 1655 views | Radlett_blue |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:09 - Jul 15 by lowhouseblue |
ok but what often distinguishes sexual assault as a crime is the evidential basis rather than the appropriate burden of proof. the burden of proof is the same in the trial of all crimes - you wouldn't say that the proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused when it's a murder trial? but with sexual assaults you often have no independent evidence, just two opposed accounts, and forensic evidence can be not inconsistent with the two opposing accounts. so i don't see the 'burden of proof' as at all the issue (just as it isn't with murderer trials). the issue is court procedure, investigatory procedure, and what evidence the court disallows and how it instructs jurors. civil courts can hear cases which effectively amount to serious sexual assault or rape and do so on the basis of balance of probabilities and are therefore much more likely to find for the complainant, but that would not be a good basis on which to put someone in prison. |
Indeed, in sexual assault or rape trials, it generally comes down to the jury deciding which of two people is telling the truth. Obviously, that's hard to reconcile with "reasonable doubt" so hence the low prosecution & conviction rate in such cases. If someone could suggest improvements to this system, I would like to hear it. |  |
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| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:20 - Jul 15 with 1601 views | LankHenners |
| Mendy cleared of all charges now on 10:09 - Jul 15 by lowhouseblue |
ok but what often distinguishes sexual assault as a crime is the evidential basis rather than the appropriate burden of proof. the burden of proof is the same in the trial of all crimes - you wouldn't say that the proof required to return a guilty verdict is enormous and weighted very much in favour of the accused when it's a murder trial? but with sexual assaults you often have no independent evidence, just two opposed accounts, and forensic evidence can be not inconsistent with the two opposing accounts. so i don't see the 'burden of proof' as at all the issue (just as it isn't with murderer trials). the issue is court procedure, investigatory procedure, and what evidence the court disallows and how it instructs jurors. civil courts can hear cases which effectively amount to serious sexual assault or rape and do so on the basis of balance of probabilities and are therefore much more likely to find for the complainant, but that would not be a good basis on which to put someone in prison. |
Yes I know all that - the threshold for burden of proof is just much harder to meet in these cases than it is in others as you even say there. I’m not criticising burden of proof in of itself as, to repeat myself, it’s obviously right to be certain before sending someone to prison for something, but, to use your example, there is often evidence that can link someone to a murder (not to say that’s an easy or quick process at all) whereas often the best you can do in sexual assault cases is prove that two people were in a room together. What went on in said room comes down to one person saying one thing and the other something else which naturally isn’t going to be enough for the jury to definitively say what occurred.
Anyway we’ll just go in circles on this as I think we’re pretty much in agreement on the procedural aspects of things, I just thought it was bang out of order to steam in and accuse me of wanting people locked up on minimal evidence. | |
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