| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - 11:15 - Mar 14 with 9111 views | bluevein |
The tradition of this club, with what Alf Ramsey, Bobby Robson and even myself achieved shouldn’t be forgotten. Right now, Ipswich should be contesting for the top six in the Championship every year at the very least — that’s where I think they should be. I was at the club for 21 years as a player and manager and the standard never dropped below that.That’s the level Ipswich Town should be endeavouring to be at again. That’s where they should expect to be. It’s that type of club.When I took over in 1994 the first thing I said was I wanted to take the club back into Europe and we did that. |  | | |  |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:36 - Mar 14 with 2718 views | SpruceMoose |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:31 - Mar 14 by imsureazzure |
'somewhere between heartbroken and furious' This sums it up perfectly. |
It's my suspicion that a lot those on the heartbroken end of the scale who stuck with Mick did so more out of fear for the future then any kind of faith in him turning stuff around. Nobody has been thinking that we are a club with an immediately optimistic future.
I'm one of them. I was blind, but now I see. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:37 - Mar 14 with 2717 views | DanTheMan |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:29 - Mar 14 by SpruceMoose |
Regarding you last paragraph, this is why I stayed in the Mick in camp so long. I couldn't see a better man available to work with the same funds as MM has had at his disposal. But now
I just don't think him staying is tenable. He looks miserable, he sounds miserable, and everyone else is falling on a scale somewhere between heartbroken and furious. |
It's weird logging on here and seeing everyone basically agreeing. And yeah, last sentence about sums it up, I'm definitely more on the sadness scale at the moment.
When we sack Mick or let him go, I dread to think who we hire. I can't imagine we're going to look much further than calling Redknapp for suggestions.
And then we'll just completely rip out the structure (that is all based around how Mick likes to work) and start from scratch. Except for the funding that won't change.
2 years time we'll be back here, saying the same stuff.
And we'll probably be saying "Mick wasn't that bad was he?".
Urgh. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:39 - Mar 14 with 2709 views | Lightningboy |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:11 - Mar 14 by BullardsMagicMullet |
1994 is very different from 2018.
One positive he had, when we had to sell a player for a sizeable fee, he was always given money to spend to get a replacement in, ie Dyer out and Stewart in.
In recent years Evans must of taken in over £15 million in transfer fees and spent under 20% on new players. I am not a great fan of MM but Evans should be held just as accountable for the growing mess. |
It was Dyer out for I believe £6m and Magilton in for £675k as his replacement.
Burley had this club & good football in his blood.
McCarthy doesn’t. |  | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:46 - Mar 14 with 2692 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:35 - Mar 14 by Superfrans |
Interesting points, Phil.
I do wonder whether part of our problem is frugality on McCarthy's part. Is he saying to Evans that we don't need to spend £2m on that player, because I can get this other guy for £500k? Would another manager be more demanding of Evans (as Keane clearly was) and insist on proper transfer fees.
Also, in the event that we can sell a player for £5m, why is McCarthy not insisting that he gets that to spend. It would seem to be a reasonable way to operate.
You would also have hoped that, last May, McCarthy would have gone to Evans and said, "Let me have £5m to buy Lawrence, I can make him a £10m player (or more) in two years time." But I'm not sure he would have made that case, or certainly not a forceful one.
A long way of saying that, if we get a new manager, maybe budgets will be less restrictive. |
I don't think it's unreasonable for transfer income to go into the wider budget, which is basically wages, particularly when so many players are recruited for free or on loan with Town paying a part of their salary and with wage inflation so significant. It is going back into the squad even if it's not used on fees.
Re Lawrence, I don't think MM would have gone for a deal like that in isolation as it's disruptive in the dressing room to have one player on a wage above and beyond everyone else, which would have been the case.
I don't think MM has been deliberately frugal. He identifies players, puts the deal to ME and he says whether it's doable or otherwise. MM broadly knows what budget he's working within. |  | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:50 - Mar 14 with 2678 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:39 - Mar 14 by Lightningboy |
It was Dyer out for I believe £6m and Magilton in for £675k as his replacement.
Burley had this club & good football in his blood.
McCarthy doesn’t. |
Magilton and Dyer were here together. Dyer fee went on John McGreal, Jermaine Wright, Marcus Stewart, Gary Croft and loaning Martijn Reuser. | | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:00 - Mar 14 with 2661 views | WestSussexBlue |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:04 - Mar 14 by Crawfordsboot |
Yes but George also took Crystal Palance deep into the relegation zone in the Championship before he was sacked!
As has been pointed out above the football operating environment has changed hugely since his day. |
Rekindling that connection between fans and manager particularly a Town man could be instant.
Granted, transferring that on to the players will take longer but I firmly believe the apathy currently is now just as much an issue as the style of football MM is playing. | | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:04 - Mar 14 with 2651 views | Coco |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:21 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
I agree, I think there seems to be a lack of understanding or acceptance that the division has changed to such a huge degree over the last two or three seasons. Given the current context reaching the top six would be a significant overacheivement.
I've read on here this morning that people think we run with a League One budget and that ME has cut the budget back to the bone in recent seasons. While the budget may be small for the Championship - probably about 18th highest - it's miles above a League One budget and it's more a case that the division has got richer around us than the budget having been cut back. A wage bill of £18 million-ish - as it was last year - in the second division is very significant in a historical context (and is probably in excess of 100 per cent of turnover) if not in the current Championship.
MM needs to move on for the process of rebuilding to start, no question, he probably should have gone last year, but the new manager needs to be better resourced if we're to get back to the situation where there should be an expectation that we ought to be in the play-offs. Whether ME has those resources at his disposal is a moot point, however. |
Burley says we SHOULD be. There are valid reasons why we are not be we SHOULD be. The reasons are what we need to fix in order to be. Ipswich is a club built on long term thinking and youth team coaching. Mick, for all his great points is not a long term planner nor a youth team coacher so just isnt the right fit for itfc imo. What GB is alluding to is that we need to go back to basics and plan long term how we can get back to a top six side.
The problem is ME is very much a quick fix kinda guy. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:11 - Mar 14 with 2630 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:04 - Mar 14 by Coco |
Burley says we SHOULD be. There are valid reasons why we are not be we SHOULD be. The reasons are what we need to fix in order to be. Ipswich is a club built on long term thinking and youth team coaching. Mick, for all his great points is not a long term planner nor a youth team coacher so just isnt the right fit for itfc imo. What GB is alluding to is that we need to go back to basics and plan long term how we can get back to a top six side.
The problem is ME is very much a quick fix kinda guy. |
The main reason it's unrealistic to think we 'should' be in the top six is finance. The same reason, for example, Everton can't realistically expect to be finishing in the Champions League places, despite that area of the top flight having once been their natural territory.
Historically, you may well be right, top six of the Championship is where we could have expected to be each year, but that's no longer the case given the way the division has changed. | | | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:20 - Mar 14 with 2600 views | Coco |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:11 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
The main reason it's unrealistic to think we 'should' be in the top six is finance. The same reason, for example, Everton can't realistically expect to be finishing in the Champions League places, despite that area of the top flight having once been their natural territory.
Historically, you may well be right, top six of the Championship is where we could have expected to be each year, but that's no longer the case given the way the division has changed. |
But should be our aim, otherwise what is the point? | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:21 - Mar 14 with 2598 views | christiand |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:11 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
The main reason it's unrealistic to think we 'should' be in the top six is finance. The same reason, for example, Everton can't realistically expect to be finishing in the Champions League places, despite that area of the top flight having once been their natural territory.
Historically, you may well be right, top six of the Championship is where we could have expected to be each year, but that's no longer the case given the way the division has changed. |
Why not top 6? Millwall and Preston will be thinking they can get in the mix. Aren’t their budgets in line with ours Phil? | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:24 - Mar 14 with 2584 views | itfcjoe |
Wanting to isn't enough. Without investment we just won't be. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:27 - Mar 14 with 2574 views | Steve_M |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:21 - Mar 14 by christiand |
Why not top 6? Millwall and Preston will be thinking they can get in the mix. Aren’t their budgets in line with ours Phil? |
Wanting to achieve something isn't the same as expecting to achieve it. No one is suggesting that we shouldn't aim for the top six, indeed in November and early December we were in with an outside chance of that.
The criticism is of the idea that we should be in the top six. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:28 - Mar 14 with 2573 views | Coco |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:24 - Mar 14 by itfcjoe |
Wanting to isn't enough. Without investment we just won't be. |
Investment or smart original thinking. | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:39 - Mar 14 with 2558 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:27 - Mar 14 by Steve_M |
Wanting to achieve something isn't the same as expecting to achieve it. No one is suggesting that we shouldn't aim for the top six, indeed in November and early December we were in with an outside chance of that.
The criticism is of the idea that we should be in the top six. |
Indeed, expectation is the point, not aim. | | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:40 - Mar 14 with 2557 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:20 - Mar 14 by Coco |
But should be our aim, otherwise what is the point? |
As per Steve's post, we're talking expectations rather than aims. | | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:43 - Mar 14 with 2547 views | christiand |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:40 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
As per Steve's post, we're talking expectations rather than aims. |
Both Millwall and PNE’s aims will be top 6, look how close they both are to Middlesbrough. They won’t be wanting, they’ll believe they can do it! | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:43 - Mar 14 with 2547 views | Illinoisblue |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:01 - Mar 14 by Superfrans |
Are you saying all the fuss is about Sheff Utd at home? One match?
Of course it isn't, it's about two years of performance, five years on our budgets etc etc. |
of course it's more than one match, but I think Mick's quote after that game summed up his uber pragmatic approach that many are so tired of. If we were battling relegation it would make sense, but christ, we're stuck in midtable, why not have a go. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:47 - Mar 14 with 2539 views | SpruceMoose |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:43 - Mar 14 by Illinoisblue |
of course it's more than one match, but I think Mick's quote after that game summed up his uber pragmatic approach that many are so tired of. If we were battling relegation it would make sense, but christ, we're stuck in midtable, why not have a go. |
Exactly. What's the worst that could happen by having a go? We lose 3-0 to Hull? Yeah, better play it safe. | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:51 - Mar 14 with 2531 views | PhilTWTD |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:43 - Mar 14 by christiand |
Both Millwall and PNE’s aims will be top 6, look how close they both are to Middlesbrough. They won’t be wanting, they’ll believe they can do it! |
Indeed, but there won't be an expectation that they 'should' be in the play-offs. | | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:56 - Mar 14 with 2518 views | Superfrans |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:28 - Mar 14 by Coco |
Investment or smart original thinking. |
Those last three words sound like Trump talk.
You just need to be smart & original - and it'll happen!
I personally don't think its impossible to compete to get into the Top 6 - with the right luck with injuries we would be there or thereabouts this season imho. But it can't expected. It really isn't as simple as that. |  |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 14:00 - Mar 14 with 2507 views | Superfrans |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 13:43 - Mar 14 by Illinoisblue |
of course it's more than one match, but I think Mick's quote after that game summed up his uber pragmatic approach that many are so tired of. If we were battling relegation it would make sense, but christ, we're stuck in midtable, why not have a go. |
He was clearly frustrated himself. The problem is that (with certain of our fans) his stock is so low and the dislike of his pragmatic approach is so engrained, that they/we are unwilling to recognise that we're so damaged by injuries and loss of form (potentially due to tiredness) that it just didn't work yesterday. | |
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| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 14:04 - Mar 14 with 2496 views | imsureazzure |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 14:00 - Mar 14 by Superfrans |
He was clearly frustrated himself. The problem is that (with certain of our fans) his stock is so low and the dislike of his pragmatic approach is so engrained, that they/we are unwilling to recognise that we're so damaged by injuries and loss of form (potentially due to tiredness) that it just didn't work yesterday. |
Tiredness? Is that due to the cup runs? We are constantly told todays footballers are fitter than their predecessors, tiredness should not be an issue. |  | | |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 14:10 - Mar 14 with 2490 views | Swansea_Blue |
| You can't disagree with George Burley's comments - on 12:21 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
I agree, I think there seems to be a lack of understanding or acceptance that the division has changed to such a huge degree over the last two or three seasons. Given the current context reaching the top six would be a significant overacheivement.
I've read on here this morning that people think we run with a League One budget and that ME has cut the budget back to the bone in recent seasons. While the budget may be small for the Championship - probably about 18th highest - it's miles above a League One budget and it's more a case that the division has got richer around us than the budget having been cut back. A wage bill of £18 million-ish - as it was last year - in the second division is very significant in a historical context (and is probably in excess of 100 per cent of turnover) if not in the current Championship.
MM needs to move on for the process of rebuilding to start, no question, he probably should have gone last year, but the new manager needs to be better resourced if we're to get back to the situation where there should be an expectation that we ought to be in the play-offs. Whether ME has those resources at his disposal is a moot point, however. |
I'm late to the party on this. Where have GB's comments from? Because from that quote in the OP I'd argue that his meaning could be read as being aspirational as much as anything. Not a right, but an expectation that the leadership of the club should be making sure we have the structure, budgets, managerial team, etc., in place to make us competitive. Obviously not an expectation that we should be performing at that level given the current leadership and low budget.
"That’s the level Ipswich Town should be endeavouring to be at again. That’s where they should expect to be."
ME is underperforming compared to what came before, that's clear. Should we accept that (and excuse it on budgetary grounds) or should we be expecting more from him and the club as a whole? I's say that's the crux of GB's argument.
It's very different from accepting that MM and the boys are probably doing as best as they can given the current resources at their disposal. [Post edited 14 Mar 2018 23:29]
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