| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism 20:52 - Jul 17 with 14665 views | ElderGrizzly |
Direct I guess
[Post edited 17 Jul 2018 20:52]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:14 - Jul 18 with 3991 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
He just better appreciates than you and your mate Lowhouse that there are shades between black and white!
Edit.....nice to see your favourite subject has dragged you out from your rock though! [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 9:15]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:25 - Jul 18 with 3997 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:10 - Jul 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
If she was turned on it probably has more to do with being a 'stalking horse'..........perhaps! |
Why don’t you face up to the obvious issues and have a proper debate instead of rounding on those who quite rightly call out Corbyn and others on anti semitism. |  | | |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:29 - Jul 18 with 3963 views | GlasgowBlue |
They haven't adopted the full HRA definition of antisemitism. The IHRA’s antisemitism fulldefinition is used by a number of counties around the world, including the governments of the UK, Scotland and Wales, more than 130 local councils, the police, Crown Prosecution Service and judiciary. Only Labour has cherry picked certain parts of the definition so as to excuse a great many number of their members.
The following is from the the chair of IHRA’s committee on antisemitism and Holocaust denial.
Mark Weitzman, the chair of IHRA’s committee on antisemitism and Holocaust denial, condemned Labour’s failure to adopt the full code, saying it was a "clear signal of the party’s refusal to deal with the reality of anti-Semitism in its ranks."
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-party-jeremy-corbyn-ihra-definition-of
They have adopted an amended version which excludes the following 4 examples of antisemitism.:
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
The examples are part of the whole IHRA definition.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_
There is absolutely nothing antisemitic in criticizing Israel. IHRA says that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic." The majority of normal decent people seem to be able to do it without resorting to antissemitic tropes. Criticism of Israel is permitted under the IHRA definition of antisemitism. What isn’t, is using Israel as a cover for Holocaust denial & antisemitisnm.
The Labour Party’s new guidelines on antisemitism also include the requirement that “evidence of antisemitic intent” must be demonstrated. E.g. comparing Israel to Nazi Germany would only be treated as antisemitic if "intent" can be proved. In reality, this would be near impossible to demonstrate.
"So Ken, my old comrade , did you mean to be antisemitic when you claimed Hitler supported Zionism?"
"Of course not Jezza, I am a lifelong anti-racist!"
"OK then, off you go, just try to be a bit less insensitive in future. There's a good chap"
The exclusion the 4 examples wipes out thousands of antisemitic tweets from Labour members at a stroke. Its almost as if their proposed new rules were written for them. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 9:34]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:40 - Jul 18 with 3948 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 09:14 - Jul 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
He just better appreciates than you and your mate Lowhouse that there are shades between black and white!
Edit.....nice to see your favourite subject has dragged you out from your rock though! [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 9:15]
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My favourite subject? Christ alive. I have explained my family background on here numerous times. And still you come out with crap like this.
Do you realise that you being aware of this yet still constantly questioning my motives and trivialising the subject is in itself starting to become soft antisemitism.
I'm not saying you are an anti semite. Perhaps you don't realise that you are doing it. But If you were aware that somebody from African ancestry, who has a mixed race wife and mixed race children was complaining about racism against black people, and you constantly questioned their motives and tried to dismiss and trivialise it then that would in itself be considered pretty racist. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 11:59 - Jul 18 with 3852 views | GlasgowBlue |
Ah. The JVL. Set up in August of last year with one specific aim. They are a fring organisation compared to groups like the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council
https://www.thejc.com/news/news-features/what-is-jewish-voice-for-labour-jvl-1.4
I note you didn't address the comments made by Mark Weitzman, the architect of the IHRA definition of antisemitism who said Labour’s refusal to adopt it shows an "utter disregard" for British Jews. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 12:07]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:42 - Jul 18 with 3811 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 11:59 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Ah. The JVL. Set up in August of last year with one specific aim. They are a fring organisation compared to groups like the Board of Deputies and the Jewish Leadership Council
https://www.thejc.com/news/news-features/what-is-jewish-voice-for-labour-jvl-1.4
I note you didn't address the comments made by Mark Weitzman, the architect of the IHRA definition of antisemitism who said Labour’s refusal to adopt it shows an "utter disregard" for British Jews. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 12:07]
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They’ve just threatened Margaret Hodge with “action”. Christ....
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 13:45]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:53 - Jul 18 with 3779 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:42 - Jul 18 by ElderGrizzly |
They’ve just threatened Margaret Hodge with “action”. Christ....
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 13:45]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:53 - Jul 18 with 3777 views | Darth_Koont |
Nothing at all to do with pro- or anti-Israel positions and pressure groups. The Campaign Against Antisemitism is a pressure group specifically set up to combat anti-Israel sentiment in the wake of the previous Gaza incursion.
So while I respect that Israel is important to a majority of the wider Jewish community around the world, let's not be under any illusions that it doesn't corrupt the debate on what is or isn't anti-semitic.
Where there is anti-semitism without the specific addition of Israel to make the charge stick then it should of course not be tolerated. But deflecting criticism and ultimately defending the actions of Israel is another disgusting viewpoint IMO. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 14:21]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:54 - Jul 18 with 3771 views | giant_stow |
Thanks for the link mr. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:59 - Jul 18 with 3754 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:53 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
Nothing at all to do with pro- or anti-Israel positions and pressure groups. The Campaign Against Antisemitism is a pressure group specifically set up to combat anti-Israel sentiment in the wake of the previous Gaza incursion.
So while I respect that Israel is important to a majority of the wider Jewish community around the world, let's not be under any illusions that it doesn't corrupt the debate on what is or isn't anti-semitic.
Where there is anti-semitism without the specific addition of Israel to make the charge stick then it should of course not be tolerated. But deflecting criticism and ultimately defending the actions of Israel is another disgusting viewpoint IMO. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 14:21]
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I'm clearly not arguing with the full facts and learning on this as I go, but I noticed last night that this definition of anti-Semitism doesn't stop criticism of Israel according to Ed Milliband, Tom Watson & Jon Lansman, so what's the problem? Genuine question... | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:03 - Jul 18 with 3746 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:59 - Jul 18 by giant_stow |
I'm clearly not arguing with the full facts and learning on this as I go, but I noticed last night that this definition of anti-Semitism doesn't stop criticism of Israel according to Ed Milliband, Tom Watson & Jon Lansman, so what's the problem? Genuine question... |
What definition? The IHRA language gets vague around Israel to become a bit of a blanket for suppressing or at least discrediting criticism of Israel's approach. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:11 - Jul 18 with 3704 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:03 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
What definition? The IHRA language gets vague around Israel to become a bit of a blanket for suppressing or at least discrediting criticism of Israel's approach. |
It doesn’t get vague at all. Here are the 4 points labour have excluded.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
What is vague about any of the above? How does avoiding any of the above stop people criticising Israel?
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office.
See, it’s dead easy to criticise Israel without falling foul of the IHRA definition of antisemistm. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:12 - Jul 18 with 3713 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:03 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
What definition? The IHRA language gets vague around Israel to become a bit of a blanket for suppressing or at least discrediting criticism of Israel's approach. |
The full IHRA definition with examples, which was rejected by the NEC. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:14 - Jul 18 with 3708 views | TJS |
It was mentioned on Newsnight last night and they said witnesses in the house confirmed there were no swear words involved in the exchange. |  | | |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:20 - Jul 18 with 3691 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:12 - Jul 18 by giant_stow |
The full IHRA definition with examples, which was rejected by the NEC. |
I think it's considered by many (anti-Israel and much more neutral observers) that the IHRA definition and examples does hamper criticism of Israel. Others disagree.
But there's no doubt that efforts have been made to extend the definition of antisemitism to anti-Israel and anti-Zionism. The IHRA definition and examples is a deliberately woolier version of that. And of course 90% of it is rightly a definition that everyone pretty much accepts. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:23 - Jul 18 with 3672 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 13:53 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
Nothing at all to do with pro- or anti-Israel positions and pressure groups. The Campaign Against Antisemitism is a pressure group specifically set up to combat anti-Israel sentiment in the wake of the previous Gaza incursion.
So while I respect that Israel is important to a majority of the wider Jewish community around the world, let's not be under any illusions that it doesn't corrupt the debate on what is or isn't anti-semitic.
Where there is anti-semitism without the specific addition of Israel to make the charge stick then it should of course not be tolerated. But deflecting criticism and ultimately defending the actions of Israel is another disgusting viewpoint IMO. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 14:21]
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Sorry lowers. How could I forget the upset party political fanboys who love getting on their cynically and hastily arranged high horses? | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:27 - Jul 18 with 3654 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:20 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
I think it's considered by many (anti-Israel and much more neutral observers) that the IHRA definition and examples does hamper criticism of Israel. Others disagree.
But there's no doubt that efforts have been made to extend the definition of antisemitism to anti-Israel and anti-Zionism. The IHRA definition and examples is a deliberately woolier version of that. And of course 90% of it is rightly a definition that everyone pretty much accepts. |
Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism by GlasgowBlue 18 Jul 2018 14:11It doesn’t get vague at all. Here are the 4 points labour have excluded.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
What is vague about any of the above? How does avoiding any of the above stop people criticising Israel?
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office.
See, it’s dead easy to criticise Israel without falling foul of the IHRA definition of antisemistm.
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to draw comparisons with contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis? Taking aside the insensitivity, it is completely inaccurate.
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to accuse non Israeli Jews of being more loyal to Israel than to the interests of their own nations?
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel, one would deny the Jewish people their right to self-determination?
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to apply double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation?
Is it possible for you to criticize Israel whilst avoiding the 4 examples given above? | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:29 - Jul 18 with 3647 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:11 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
It doesn’t get vague at all. Here are the 4 points labour have excluded.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
What is vague about any of the above? How does avoiding any of the above stop people criticising Israel?
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office.
See, it’s dead easy to criticise Israel without falling foul of the IHRA definition of antisemistm. |
This one 'Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. '
On one hand, I would abide by any definition of anti-Semitism as defined by the majority of Jewish bods, but on the other, why is this considered anti-Semitic? Is it just too offensive to mention the Nazis even if there might be certain similarities? Have I just been anti-Semitic? | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:30 - Jul 18 with 3645 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:27 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism by GlasgowBlue 18 Jul 2018 14:11It doesn’t get vague at all. Here are the 4 points labour have excluded.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
What is vague about any of the above? How does avoiding any of the above stop people criticising Israel?
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office.
See, it’s dead easy to criticise Israel without falling foul of the IHRA definition of antisemistm.
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to draw comparisons with contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis? Taking aside the insensitivity, it is completely inaccurate.
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to accuse non Israeli Jews of being more loyal to Israel than to the interests of their own nations?
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel, one would deny the Jewish people their right to self-determination?
Could you please tell me that when criticizing Israel it is necessary to apply double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation?
Is it possible for you to criticize Israel whilst avoiding the 4 examples given above? |
You're being disingenuous. As per.
Keep parading your agenda and your hypocrisy. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:35 - Jul 18 with 3625 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:30 - Jul 18 by Darth_Koont |
You're being disingenuous. As per.
Keep parading your agenda and your hypocrisy. |
You have said on numerous occasions that antisemtism is being used to silence criticism of Israel.
I have listed the 4 definitions of anti semitism when discussing Israeli policy as defined by the IHRA. I have then asked if it is possible to criticize the actions of Israel without falling foul of the IHRA's definition.
Can people criticise Israel without having to fall foul of those 4 definitions? It's a pretty simple question to answer. Or one would think it's a pretty easy question to answer.
And could you please tell me what my agenda is and in what way I have been hypocritical on this subject?
Edit. I’ll take that as a no then? [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 15:29]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:41 - Jul 18 with 3600 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:29 - Jul 18 by giant_stow |
This one 'Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis. '
On one hand, I would abide by any definition of anti-Semitism as defined by the majority of Jewish bods, but on the other, why is this considered anti-Semitic? Is it just too offensive to mention the Nazis even if there might be certain similarities? Have I just been anti-Semitic? |
This explains it better than I could so I'll do a straight copy and paste.
There are plenty of ways describe something bad. There is no need to make a poor analogy by invoking the Holocaust. To do so specifically because the target is Jewish, or the Jewish state (i.e. Israel), is to use that identity as grounds for attacking. That is almost a definition of racism; using someone’s identity as a basis to attack them. Comparing Israeli policy to that of the Nazis, calling Israel a Nazi state, or saying Jews should know better and not behave like Nazis are all forms of the same racist attack. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:50 - Jul 18 with 3576 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:41 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
This explains it better than I could so I'll do a straight copy and paste.
There are plenty of ways describe something bad. There is no need to make a poor analogy by invoking the Holocaust. To do so specifically because the target is Jewish, or the Jewish state (i.e. Israel), is to use that identity as grounds for attacking. That is almost a definition of racism; using someone’s identity as a basis to attack them. Comparing Israeli policy to that of the Nazis, calling Israel a Nazi state, or saying Jews should know better and not behave like Nazis are all forms of the same racist attack. |
Interesting stuff ta. Not totally sure I understand or agree 100% (to mix religions, 'do unto others....' seems to apply). Although the line 'no need to make a poor analogy by invoking the Holocaust' probably makes the most sense and is easy to agree with, so trumps my small doubts. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:50 - Jul 18 with 3569 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:11 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
It doesn’t get vague at all. Here are the 4 points labour have excluded.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews
worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
What is vague about any of the above? How does avoiding any of the above stop people criticising Israel?
Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office.
See, it’s dead easy to criticise Israel without falling foul of the IHRA definition of antisemistm. |
"Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people is appalling. Israel’s settlements are illegal, should stop and the land should be given back. Israel uses disproportionate force in retaliation to attacks from Hamas. Netanyahu Is a roadblock to a two state solution and I would hope the Israeli people vote him out of office."
What's your view on the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions (BDS) movment?
Have you got anything against it? |  | | |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 15:28 - Jul 18 with 3530 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:50 - Jul 18 by giant_stow |
Interesting stuff ta. Not totally sure I understand or agree 100% (to mix religions, 'do unto others....' seems to apply). Although the line 'no need to make a poor analogy by invoking the Holocaust' probably makes the most sense and is easy to agree with, so trumps my small doubts. |
What it basically means is you can call Israel an apartheid state. It would be inaccurate to do so but you can do that as you are attacking Israel, the country. You can compare Israel policy to that of Stalin or Pol Pot. Again, total inaccurate but certainly not anti Semitic as you are attacking the country and the government. But when you are attacking Israel by comparing its policies to those of the Nazis you are not attacking the country. You are attacking them as Jews. | |
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