| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism 20:52 - Jul 17 with 14664 views | ElderGrizzly |
Direct I guess
[Post edited 17 Jul 2018 20:52]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 15:36 - Jul 18 with 1819 views | giant_stow |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 15:28 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
What it basically means is you can call Israel an apartheid state. It would be inaccurate to do so but you can do that as you are attacking Israel, the country. You can compare Israel policy to that of Stalin or Pol Pot. Again, total inaccurate but certainly not anti Semitic as you are attacking the country and the government. But when you are attacking Israel by comparing its policies to those of the Nazis you are not attacking the country. You are attacking them as Jews. |
fair dos - think I'm getting up to speed (finally!) |  |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:45 - Jul 18 with 1768 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 14:41 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
This explains it better than I could so I'll do a straight copy and paste.
There are plenty of ways describe something bad. There is no need to make a poor analogy by invoking the Holocaust. To do so specifically because the target is Jewish, or the Jewish state (i.e. Israel), is to use that identity as grounds for attacking. That is almost a definition of racism; using someone’s identity as a basis to attack them. Comparing Israeli policy to that of the Nazis, calling Israel a Nazi state, or saying Jews should know better and not behave like Nazis are all forms of the same racist attack. |
Let's imagine a current or future Israeli leader cynically sacked a swathe of civil servants/cabinet members/judiciary to look out for their own interests and it was referred to as a 'night of the long knives' (a phrase used in relation to other democratic nations) this would be an act of anti semitism !
Edit the second example also......what if an individual's actions showed that they were acting as described, you couldn't point it out without considering being labelled anti semite!
Is there a list of 'standards expected by democratic nations'?
Also I'm not entirely convinced that 'soft anti- semitism' is a thing! [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:55]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:54 - Jul 18 with 1758 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:45 - Jul 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Let's imagine a current or future Israeli leader cynically sacked a swathe of civil servants/cabinet members/judiciary to look out for their own interests and it was referred to as a 'night of the long knives' (a phrase used in relation to other democratic nations) this would be an act of anti semitism !
Edit the second example also......what if an individual's actions showed that they were acting as described, you couldn't point it out without considering being labelled anti semite!
Is there a list of 'standards expected by democratic nations'?
Also I'm not entirely convinced that 'soft anti- semitism' is a thing! [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:55]
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Why do you even want to make up an imaginary scenario so as to use anti semitic language? That seems rather bizarre.
But, if such a situation did arise then I am sure you could find another totalitarian regime from history to compare. Does it have to be the Nazis?
Look, it's really not that hard to criticise the Israeli state without having to use Nazi comparisons. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:55]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:59 - Jul 18 with 1751 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:54 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Why do you even want to make up an imaginary scenario so as to use anti semitic language? That seems rather bizarre.
But, if such a situation did arise then I am sure you could find another totalitarian regime from history to compare. Does it have to be the Nazis?
Look, it's really not that hard to criticise the Israeli state without having to use Nazi comparisons. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 17:55]
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Definitions need to apply to future unknown scenarios.
I agree it would be a clumsy (even inappropriate) phrase to use but it is widely used as an analogy. To use the analogy should not risk the serious label of anti semitism being applied.
Just trying to illustrate that these examples are open to misapplication and therefore abuse. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 18:04 - Jul 18 with 1742 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 17:59 - Jul 18 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Definitions need to apply to future unknown scenarios.
I agree it would be a clumsy (even inappropriate) phrase to use but it is widely used as an analogy. To use the analogy should not risk the serious label of anti semitism being applied.
Just trying to illustrate that these examples are open to misapplication and therefore abuse. |
It's not that hard to think through the consequences of words. It's why you rarely hear people talk about a "final solution" when discussing the possibility of a two state solution.
btw Margaret Hodge has written a very good piece in the Guardian today.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/jeremy-corbyn-labour-antis
Her grandfather was one of six siblings and her father's is the only surviving line left. The rest were slaughtered by the Nazis. All some people could think on here was that she was attacking Corbyn because she is wealthy or because of his Brexit position. Those people need to take a long look at themselves.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2018 18:07]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:13 - Jul 18 with 1696 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Sorry Glassers - I only just saw this. I wasn’t blanking you.
Obviously there’s a problem. I think that’s quite clear. And it needs to be sorted out. Are they doing enough to sort it? Atm, obviously not. For the sake of this countries politics, I hope they do.
However, and this was my point more than on the actual OP, there are people (and Lowhouse is certainly one of them) who will use absolutely anything they can to make it as a way of digging out Corbyn. The littlest of things. Whether that be whether he’s wearing a poppy at a certain time to singing the national anthem properly, etc. It’s all just a bit OTT.
Remember I’m someone who would probably vote Labour but for Corbyn being in charge of the party. But even I think there’s a smear campaign against him now. I don’t think it’s needed in truth as there’s enoug reasons to question why on earth he should lead our country. My sole reason is his lack of wanting anything to do with Atomic Weapons. In this day and age, in a world of the nutty Korean, Putin and The Donald, his Trident views scare me. He’d have us look like an easy target if he had his way on that front and I can’t support that. |  |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:25 - Jul 18 with 1685 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:13 - Jul 18 by The_Romford_Blue |
Sorry Glassers - I only just saw this. I wasn’t blanking you.
Obviously there’s a problem. I think that’s quite clear. And it needs to be sorted out. Are they doing enough to sort it? Atm, obviously not. For the sake of this countries politics, I hope they do.
However, and this was my point more than on the actual OP, there are people (and Lowhouse is certainly one of them) who will use absolutely anything they can to make it as a way of digging out Corbyn. The littlest of things. Whether that be whether he’s wearing a poppy at a certain time to singing the national anthem properly, etc. It’s all just a bit OTT.
Remember I’m someone who would probably vote Labour but for Corbyn being in charge of the party. But even I think there’s a smear campaign against him now. I don’t think it’s needed in truth as there’s enoug reasons to question why on earth he should lead our country. My sole reason is his lack of wanting anything to do with Atomic Weapons. In this day and age, in a world of the nutty Korean, Putin and The Donald, his Trident views scare me. He’d have us look like an easy target if he had his way on that front and I can’t support that. |
Is Lowhouse using the Antisemitism row, IRA support, etc as an excuse to dig out Corbyn? Or Is Lowhouse, as a lifelong Labour member and activist, digging Corbyn out because of the antisemitism, IRA support etc? I would suggest that it is the latter rather than the former.
Have you considered that Lowhouse is absolutely appalled that somebody with Corbyn's past connections and dodgy associations is now leading the Labour party.
I know that if the leader of the Tory Party had shared a platform with the KKK, spoken in support of Tommy Robinson and been an apologist for the slave trade then I, as a former lifelong member of the Tory party would be digging them out at every possible opportunity. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 19:26]
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:48 - Jul 18 with 1652 views | lowhouseblue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:25 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Is Lowhouse using the Antisemitism row, IRA support, etc as an excuse to dig out Corbyn? Or Is Lowhouse, as a lifelong Labour member and activist, digging Corbyn out because of the antisemitism, IRA support etc? I would suggest that it is the latter rather than the former.
Have you considered that Lowhouse is absolutely appalled that somebody with Corbyn's past connections and dodgy associations is now leading the Labour party.
I know that if the leader of the Tory Party had shared a platform with the KKK, spoken in support of Tommy Robinson and been an apologist for the slave trade then I, as a former lifelong member of the Tory party would be digging them out at every possible opportunity. [Post edited 18 Jul 2018 19:26]
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romford probably has a point - that little things done by corbyn do wind me up and objectively they are trivial. but if you have been involved in the labour party for a long time there is a whole language of micro actions and statements that remind you of his past associations and positions. corbyn saying that he has always promoted peace in northern ireland, for example, is like jeffrey archer saying that integrity was always central to his public life. but, my real issue, and the reason i think he is utterly unfit to be prime minister and is a disgrace as leader of the labour party, is the people and positions that, over the last 30 years, he has supported and made excuses for. he has aligned himself with so many anti-semites and terrorists and people who support dictators and apologise for oppression that i can not support him. and i can't ignore what i know about him over the past 30 years. so i am against corbyn BECAUSE of his associations and positions. those things matter and they are definitely not an excuse or a cover for something else. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:52 - Jul 18 with 1643 views | brogansnose |
Its either pure hatred or they simply just don't see it.
You bumble along thinking its just the KKK and the extreme right that expouse all this scheisse, but no.
I'm starting to despair of all this. |  | | |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:58 - Jul 18 with 1626 views | giant_stow |
There's the Israel / nazi thing in the wild. I feel embarrassed to have even asked about it now. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 20:00 - Jul 18 with 1620 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 15:28 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
What it basically means is you can call Israel an apartheid state. It would be inaccurate to do so but you can do that as you are attacking Israel, the country. You can compare Israel policy to that of Stalin or Pol Pot. Again, total inaccurate but certainly not anti Semitic as you are attacking the country and the government. But when you are attacking Israel by comparing its policies to those of the Nazis you are not attacking the country. You are attacking them as Jews. |
But campaigners have used the IHRA examples to claim that you can't call Israel an apartheid state.
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/campaign-to-counter-israel-apartheid-week-w
This is why there is so much free spech controversy around the examples given, rather than the definition itself. |  | | |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 20:11 - Jul 18 with 1600 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 19:48 - Jul 18 by lowhouseblue |
romford probably has a point - that little things done by corbyn do wind me up and objectively they are trivial. but if you have been involved in the labour party for a long time there is a whole language of micro actions and statements that remind you of his past associations and positions. corbyn saying that he has always promoted peace in northern ireland, for example, is like jeffrey archer saying that integrity was always central to his public life. but, my real issue, and the reason i think he is utterly unfit to be prime minister and is a disgrace as leader of the labour party, is the people and positions that, over the last 30 years, he has supported and made excuses for. he has aligned himself with so many anti-semites and terrorists and people who support dictators and apologise for oppression that i can not support him. and i can't ignore what i know about him over the past 30 years. so i am against corbyn BECAUSE of his associations and positions. those things matter and they are definitely not an excuse or a cover for something else. |
To be fair that’s a very good post. The little things being posted all the time was my only gripe at why it looked like a smear campaign. But you’ve explained that now. And I think you make a good point so I’ll say no more about it.
We both agree that he shouldn’t be the PM and it’s a shame he is leading the Labour Party as this country absolutely needs a strong opposition right now.
The Tories are a shambles and if there wasn’t so much going on at Labour with Corbyn, they’d probably have won the last election. I always thought Ed Miliband brother should’ve gone for it when Corbyn got the gig. But hey ho. | |
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| Corbyn confronted in HoC tonight on anti-semitism on 20:13 - Jul 18 with 1599 views | jas0999 |
This man should be forced out of the Labour Party. The Tories are in a complete mess, yet if an election was called tomorrow, I would vote for them. All hell would have to freeze over before I vote for a Labour candidate under his leadership. Disgraceful. |  | | |
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