| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:23 - Oct 24 with 3416 views | Swansea_Blue |
The world will watch in silence |  |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:26 - Oct 24 with 3412 views | GeoffSentence |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:23 - Oct 24 by Swansea_Blue |
The world will watch in silence |
Except the BBC. They are not staying silent on this. |  |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:27 - Oct 24 with 3409 views | chicoazul |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:23 - Oct 24 by Swansea_Blue |
The world will watch in silence |
That article is literally on the website of one of the biggest news organisations in the world. If you mean the world won't do anything you're probably right. |  |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:45 - Oct 24 with 3382 views | No9 |
& this is the country we want to build a nuclear power station on our back door? |  | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 13:23 - Oct 24 with 3334 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:27 - Oct 24 by chicoazul |
That article is literally on the website of one of the biggest news organisations in the world. If you mean the world won't do anything you're probably right. |
Hard to see what anyone could actually do.
The biggest countries don't really have to answer to anyone.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 13:26 - Oct 24 with 3330 views | No9 |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 13:23 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Hard to see what anyone could actually do.
The biggest countries don't really have to answer to anyone.
SB |
We could cease to buy their goods could we not?
& we don't need to be doign the sweetheart deals cxameron is I.C of? | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:13 - Oct 24 with 3304 views | Bluesquid |
They are using unverifiable accounts and analysis to state that what they are presenting in this article is evidence? | | | |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:15 - Oct 24 with 3301 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:13 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
They are using unverifiable accounts and analysis to state that what they are presenting in this article is evidence? |
Afternoon!
I thought you'd be along at some point to rubbish the article as it's by the BBC.
Do you not believe Uighurs are being held in camps?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:19 - Oct 24 with 3286 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:15 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Afternoon!
I thought you'd be along at some point to rubbish the article as it's by the BBC.
Do you not believe Uighurs are being held in camps?
SB |
Didn't say that.
Am saying that unverifiable accounts and analysis cannot be stated as evidence which is what the BBC is doing here.
My issue is with the statement of evidence. | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:25 - Oct 24 with 3277 views | ElderGrizzly |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:13 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
They are using unverifiable accounts and analysis to state that what they are presenting in this article is evidence? |
How bloody ironic. That is literally what we have to put up with from CiL and a few others on here, but they at the same time discredit anything else as “The Man” |  | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:25 - Oct 24 with 3273 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:19 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
Didn't say that.
Am saying that unverifiable accounts and analysis cannot be stated as evidence which is what the BBC is doing here.
My issue is with the statement of evidence. |
Out of interest how to you verify an account when the Chinese police won't let you near the places to verify it?
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:25 - Oct 24 with 3192 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 14:25 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Out of interest how to you verify an account when the Chinese police won't let you near the places to verify it?
SB |
Still doesn't make it evidence though does it?
You don't need me to tell you of the absurdity of stating something as evidence when it is based on unverifiable accounts and analysis.
The article needs to be reworded. | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:26 - Oct 24 with 3191 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:25 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
Still doesn't make it evidence though does it?
You don't need me to tell you of the absurdity of stating something as evidence when it is based on unverifiable accounts and analysis.
The article needs to be reworded. |
Are you more worried about the wording of the article than what is actually going on?
Plenty of condemnation for the BBC, none for the Chinese.
Odd.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:27 - Oct 24 with 3190 views | Swansea_Blue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 11:27 - Oct 24 by chicoazul |
That article is literally on the website of one of the biggest news organisations in the world. If you mean the world won't do anything you're probably right. |
Yes I did. We'll chunter about it on social media, there'll even be a group or two that have the odd small protest, and then anyone in any position of influence in global affairs will let them get on with it. | |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:29 - Oct 24 with 3181 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:26 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Are you more worried about the wording of the article than what is actually going on?
Plenty of condemnation for the BBC, none for the Chinese.
Odd.
SB |
So you are ok with stating something as evidence when it is unverifiable?
That sits well with you? | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:37 - Oct 24 with 3167 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:29 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
So you are ok with stating something as evidence when it is unverifiable?
That sits well with you? |
This is exactly what you did in the thread on the Syrian report except in that instance you didn't even bother to use "evidence" from the report in order to try and rubbish it.
You care more about attacking the BBC than the actual issues. It's pretty shameful.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:40 - Oct 24 with 3154 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:37 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
This is exactly what you did in the thread on the Syrian report except in that instance you didn't even bother to use "evidence" from the report in order to try and rubbish it.
You care more about attacking the BBC than the actual issues. It's pretty shameful.
SB |
Christ! I only asked you a question, just like in that previous thread.
Funny, you refused to answer then aswell. | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:54 - Oct 24 with 3142 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:40 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
Christ! I only asked you a question, just like in that previous thread.
Funny, you refused to answer then aswell. |
Ridiculous post.
In both threads you refused to address the actual points in the posts and instead attacked the BBC. Why would anyone answer your agenda lead posts when you have no intention of actually discussing the subject at hand.
The fact you have a bigger problem with the BBC than you do with the Syrian regime or Chinese internment camps speaks more about you than people not engaging in your deflection tactics.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 17:12 - Oct 24 with 3110 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 16:54 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Ridiculous post.
In both threads you refused to address the actual points in the posts and instead attacked the BBC. Why would anyone answer your agenda lead posts when you have no intention of actually discussing the subject at hand.
The fact you have a bigger problem with the BBC than you do with the Syrian regime or Chinese internment camps speaks more about you than people not engaging in your deflection tactics.
SB |
Of course it is possible that they are being held in camps, i haven't denied this and absolutely unacceptable it is too if true.
The whole issue for me is that i feel that the article should be reworded because of what i stated earlier.
So that being said, are you are ok with stating something as evidence when it is unverifiable?
Does that sit well with you? | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 17:25 - Oct 24 with 3100 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 17:12 - Oct 24 by Bluesquid |
Of course it is possible that they are being held in camps, i haven't denied this and absolutely unacceptable it is too if true.
The whole issue for me is that i feel that the article should be reworded because of what i stated earlier.
So that being said, are you are ok with stating something as evidence when it is unverifiable?
Does that sit well with you? |
Which specific part of the report are you referring to?
Parts of it clearly are verifiable such as the satellite imagery.
"absolutely unacceptable it is too if true"
Loads of sources have said it's true, even the Chinese have said it's true but they call them education centres.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 18:58 - Oct 24 with 3049 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 17:25 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Which specific part of the report are you referring to?
Parts of it clearly are verifiable such as the satellite imagery.
"absolutely unacceptable it is too if true"
Loads of sources have said it's true, even the Chinese have said it's true but they call them education centres.
SB |
The accounts (from some of those now living abroad) prior to the stating of - "There is no way of independently verifying these accounts. "
The analysis from Raphael Sperry, an architect and the president of the US-based organisation, Architects/Designers/Planners for Social Responsibility.
“This is a truly massive and bleak detention facility,” he told me.
“It appears as a place designed to pack as many people into as small an area as possible at the lowest construction cost.
“I think 11,000 is likely a significant underestimate... From the available information we can't tell how the interior is configured or what portion of the buildings is used for detention rather than other functions. Even so, your dormitory estimate of 130,000 people seems, sadly, quite possible.”
"The lack of access to the site means there's no way of independently verifying this analysis." | | | |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 00:00 - Oct 25 with 2934 views | caught-in-limbo |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 17:25 - Oct 24 by StokieBlue |
Which specific part of the report are you referring to?
Parts of it clearly are verifiable such as the satellite imagery.
"absolutely unacceptable it is too if true"
Loads of sources have said it's true, even the Chinese have said it's true but they call them education centres.
SB |
Maybe they are education centres. I did a bit of googling to see what I can find.
The state media images which are spoken about and shown in the BBC report are from this report on China's CCTV:
It's all in Chinese so it's not particularly revealing but by the looks of the teachers, the classes and the living quarters, it doesn't really look like a detention centre and much more like the education centre it claims to be where locals get free food, vocational skill training and language classes to improve their job prospects and move them away from radical islamification.
http://tv.cctv.com/2018/10/16/VIDEVvr9aq34SsDMrB6IRGnh181016.shtml
This sort of mass culture change isn't my thing at all and I'm certainly against it, but it's better than a Saudi push to radicalise the people through their madrassa system and funding of huge Mosques and placement of radical Saudi Imams to teach in them.
It seems the BBC article has caused a bit of dismay in China and other Chinese journalists have evidently visited the place to see what it's really like. There's a small feature about it here: http://news.dwnews.com/china/big5/news/2018-10-21/60092290.html
Chicoazul's DM article from 2009 is interesting too. It seems strange that Hutchins is still calling Beijing "Peking" 30 years after everyone changed and although I'm generally in agreement with most of his stuff (especially his most recent articles) it's a little baffling that he bemoans the change in culture completely without offering any positives.
His article includes this image:
Now I'm all for women wearing what they want and not being forced to wear anything by anyone, but I'm pretty sure Chinese Muslims would choose a habib over that. And before anyone says they can't wear habibs, I beg to differ because a friend of mine has just shown me photos of her holiday in China and the Islamic food market in Xi'an, and the women are wearing them and the men are wearing kufis. Literally 1000's of them!
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iur/?f=1&image_host=http%3A%2F%2Fc8.alamy.com%2Fcom 
It's a shame the BBC have made the claims about the installations without having visited it for themselves but then I can understand the Chinese authorities' reasons for not wanting any unfriendly state media anywhere near such a place in a really sensitive part of the country.
Interesting articles from you and Chico and great comments from Blesquid too. |  |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 08:01 - Oct 27 with 2788 views | StokieBlue |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 00:00 - Oct 25 by caught-in-limbo |
Maybe they are education centres. I did a bit of googling to see what I can find.
The state media images which are spoken about and shown in the BBC report are from this report on China's CCTV:
It's all in Chinese so it's not particularly revealing but by the looks of the teachers, the classes and the living quarters, it doesn't really look like a detention centre and much more like the education centre it claims to be where locals get free food, vocational skill training and language classes to improve their job prospects and move them away from radical islamification.
http://tv.cctv.com/2018/10/16/VIDEVvr9aq34SsDMrB6IRGnh181016.shtml
This sort of mass culture change isn't my thing at all and I'm certainly against it, but it's better than a Saudi push to radicalise the people through their madrassa system and funding of huge Mosques and placement of radical Saudi Imams to teach in them.
It seems the BBC article has caused a bit of dismay in China and other Chinese journalists have evidently visited the place to see what it's really like. There's a small feature about it here: http://news.dwnews.com/china/big5/news/2018-10-21/60092290.html
Chicoazul's DM article from 2009 is interesting too. It seems strange that Hutchins is still calling Beijing "Peking" 30 years after everyone changed and although I'm generally in agreement with most of his stuff (especially his most recent articles) it's a little baffling that he bemoans the change in culture completely without offering any positives.
His article includes this image:
Now I'm all for women wearing what they want and not being forced to wear anything by anyone, but I'm pretty sure Chinese Muslims would choose a habib over that. And before anyone says they can't wear habibs, I beg to differ because a friend of mine has just shown me photos of her holiday in China and the Islamic food market in Xi'an, and the women are wearing them and the men are wearing kufis. Literally 1000's of them!
https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iur/?f=1&image_host=http%3A%2F%2Fc8.alamy.com%2Fcom
It's a shame the BBC have made the claims about the installations without having visited it for themselves but then I can understand the Chinese authorities' reasons for not wanting any unfriendly state media anywhere near such a place in a really sensitive part of the country.
Interesting articles from you and Chico and great comments from Blesquid too. |
Chinese journalist is an oxymoron, by definition they can't say anything not approved by the state so I can't quite believe you'd use that as evidence.
If you are forcibly sent somewhere to be "educated" because your beliefs as different to the state and you can't leave then it's detention no matter how nice the classrooms appear to you.
If you can't visit them then all you can go on its witness statements and imagery. Seems to be plenty of that:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/26/the-guardian-view-on-china
If they are just education centres why not let the BBC visit? If they are nice why the statements from people who have been there stating the opposite? You seem to disregard the statements of people who have been sent there in favour of the Chinese state line.
Are you claiming the entire Uighur population are at danger of being radicalised and thus need education? Why are there QR codes on the doors of people's houses so the state can track them?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uyghur-muslims-xinjiang-prov
Doesn't happen to any ethnic Chinese citizens.
Interesting ancedotal evidence from your friend but it's the early stages of the process, let's see how many are wearing and eating what they like in 10 or 15 years. They have already moved against halal:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/chinese-authorities-launch-anti-ha
Nobody is attacking the Chinese, just the behaviour of their government, something which many don't mind doing to Western governments with far less evidence.
I'm actually rather sick as tired of the apologists on this board defending horrible actions from foreign governments because it's a good stick to use to beat up Western governments and our media. It's always the same, excuse the wrongdoing, criticise something Western and then redirect to another subject (Saudis on this case).
It's shameful.
SB [Post edited 27 Oct 2018 10:24]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| More on the Uighur situation in China on 10:36 - Oct 27 with 2690 views | Bluesquid |
| More on the Uighur situation in China on 08:01 - Oct 27 by StokieBlue |
Chinese journalist is an oxymoron, by definition they can't say anything not approved by the state so I can't quite believe you'd use that as evidence.
If you are forcibly sent somewhere to be "educated" because your beliefs as different to the state and you can't leave then it's detention no matter how nice the classrooms appear to you.
If you can't visit them then all you can go on its witness statements and imagery. Seems to be plenty of that:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/26/the-guardian-view-on-china
If they are just education centres why not let the BBC visit? If they are nice why the statements from people who have been there stating the opposite? You seem to disregard the statements of people who have been sent there in favour of the Chinese state line.
Are you claiming the entire Uighur population are at danger of being radicalised and thus need education? Why are there QR codes on the doors of people's houses so the state can track them?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uyghur-muslims-xinjiang-prov
Doesn't happen to any ethnic Chinese citizens.
Interesting ancedotal evidence from your friend but it's the early stages of the process, let's see how many are wearing and eating what they like in 10 or 15 years. They have already moved against halal:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/chinese-authorities-launch-anti-ha
Nobody is attacking the Chinese, just the behaviour of their government, something which many don't mind doing to Western governments with far less evidence.
I'm actually rather sick as tired of the apologists on this board defending horrible actions from foreign governments because it's a good stick to use to beat up Western governments and our media. It's always the same, excuse the wrongdoing, criticise something Western and then redirect to another subject (Saudis on this case).
It's shameful.
SB [Post edited 27 Oct 2018 10:24]
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Labeling someone an apologist for stating that they think that an article should be reworded is shameful in my opinion.
The article contradicts itself, have you actually read the article yourself?
I'm really surprised you didn't see it yourself, just look at this excerpt -
"The BBC has conducted lengthy interviews with eight Uighurs living overseas.
Their testimonies are remarkably consistent, providing evidence of the conditions and routines inside the camps and the broad basis on which people are detained. "
Followed by the accounts themselves which then concludes with this -
"There is no way of independently verifying these accounts."
Hang on, one minute it's 'evidence' and several lines later it's unverifiable.
Seriously!?
I wouldn't of even got involved in this thread if the article hadn't be throwing around the claim of 'evidence' - no less that 5 times i might add whilst also at the same time explaining that accounts and analysis are unverifiable.
I standby what i said, the article needs to be reworded in my opinion and no that doesn't make me an apologist for the Chinese Goverment. | | | |
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