| Oborne nails it again 13:19 - Mar 7 with 8760 views | Darth_Koont |
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/british-tories-are-morphing-party-bigots
And so does O’Brien who might be starting to feel a little duped ...
The lack of mainstream coverage or comment on this and other stuff like the ruling against the JC for making up allegations of bullying against Louise Ellman (who also did nothing to correct this as far as I can see) suggest we have a media that is entirely compromised as a seeker of truth and balance. They are an intrinsic part of the problem in UK politics. [Post edited 7 Mar 2020 13:22]
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| Oborne nails it again on 13:38 - Mar 9 with 1969 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 13:36 - Mar 9 by Eireannach_gorm |
So whats the position if you are ignoring Tory racism and bigging up the extent of Labour racism? |
I think that's called the mainstream position. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:18 - Mar 9 with 1926 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oborne nails it again on 13:36 - Mar 9 by Eireannach_gorm |
So whats the position if you are ignoring Tory racism and bigging up the extent of Labour racism? |
The same applies. Who is ignoring Tory racism whilst bigging up the extent of Labour racism? |  |
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:18 - Mar 9 with 1927 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 13:22 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
This was what I was sent in a daily e-mail about Jennie Formby...
4 a.m. text from one angry Labour staffer: “That [General Secretary] Jennie Formby presides over an organization that cannot throw out anti-Semites and racists or ensure huge numbers of people receive their ballots in a leadership election, but can find spurious grounds to stop a renowned anti-racism campaigner from voting who has been critical of the Labour Party, tells you everything you need to know about the toxic organization she heads.” Yikes. |
"Spurious grounds" ... Yikes indeed.
By the way, what on earth is the mailing list you're on? | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:21 - Mar 9 with 1917 views | itfcjoe |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:18 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
"Spurious grounds" ... Yikes indeed.
By the way, what on earth is the mailing list you're on? |
Just a general, balanced political thing from politico.co.uk |  |
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:26 - Mar 9 with 1904 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:21 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
Just a general, balanced political thing from politico.co.uk |
Didn't sound very balanced at all. Who wrote it? | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:52 - Mar 9 with 1875 views | WeWereZombies |
| Oborne nails it again on 13:36 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
But it shows how infected and skewed the debate is that a leading antiracist campaigner doesn't consider Muslims a race in these terms. We can surely have a discussion about all minority communities in the same terms if we want. And just say that we are all the human race?
I don't believe that for one second. Reducing "communities" to monolithic generalisations, or that Britishness can and should somehow confer an identity that supercedes racial and cultural ones, is a huge problem and a very slippery slope.
Here's the guy who "broke" the Tory islamophobia story putting Phillips and his views in context. Read the thread for the detail:
[Post edited 9 Mar 2020 13:37]
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I have read the thread and I am afraid that all that it does is confirm that I am right to avoid Twitter, peak echo chamber . I don't see any well developed arguments there on either side of this spat and I think I would prefer to wait and see what arises from the investigation now as there are far bigger issues involved than drowning in minutiae, [Post edited 9 Mar 2020 18:13]
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| Oborne nails it again on 14:55 - Mar 9 with 1869 views | itfcjoe |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:26 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
Didn't sound very balanced at all. Who wrote it? |
That's one snip out of about 1000 words daily, I've said where it is from - politico.co.uk daily e-mail | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 15:01 - Mar 9 with 1856 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:52 - Mar 9 by WeWereZombies |
I have read the thread and I am afraid that all that it does is confirm that I am right to avoid Twitter, peak echo chamber . I don't see any well developed arguments there on either side of this spat and I think I would prefer to wait and see what arises from the investigation now as there are far bigger issues involved than drowning in minutiae, [Post edited 9 Mar 2020 18:13]
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It's nothing to do with the echo chamber. It's the evidence. And you really don't think that the list of evidence he presents is worth investigating?
It's a pretty hefty and solid case just by going on Phillips' own documented words. And it's not as if he hasn't been called out on a lot of this stuff before.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/double-standards-trevor-phillips
There's a nice line about rural Norfolk in here too! | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 15:07 - Mar 9 with 1845 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:55 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
That's one snip out of about 1000 words daily, I've said where it is from - politico.co.uk daily e-mail |
Yeah, I just googled it and found it.It seems reasonable on the whole but the manner in which the Times piece and this text are regurgitated uncritically suggests that there's a bit of a blind spot on this issue.
But then again that's islamophobia in a nutshell. I suggest you look at the thread of the evidence I posted before deciding that it's "spurious" or it's Labour that have had a "shocker" here. [Post edited 9 Mar 2020 15:17]
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| Oborne nails it again on 15:45 - Mar 9 with 1807 views | itfcjoe |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:07 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I just googled it and found it.It seems reasonable on the whole but the manner in which the Times piece and this text are regurgitated uncritically suggests that there's a bit of a blind spot on this issue.
But then again that's islamophobia in a nutshell. I suggest you look at the thread of the evidence I posted before deciding that it's "spurious" or it's Labour that have had a "shocker" here. [Post edited 9 Mar 2020 15:17]
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I think you have to read it for a few days or weeks to work out what it is, general reporting off things with a few snippets from insiders - appreciate that just looking at one piece, and then one e-mail in isolation will not portray that - it's an interesting daily e-mail though.
Have just read the piece by Oborne and Phillips and find I disagree with him. I think the conflation between deliberately insular communities and communities that end up being formed by similar people is poor.
I think those do call out other religions for their backwards views, whilst seeing the good they can do - but the reality is most other religions in this country are shrinking, whereas Islam is growing which make it different and spreads very un-British values - i.e. how women are seen as total 2nd class citizens and subservient to men | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 15:50 - Mar 9 with 1800 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 14:18 - Mar 9 by GlasgowBlue |
The same applies. Who is ignoring Tory racism whilst bigging up the extent of Labour racism? |
Well, Trevor Phillips for one.
How's my list looking by the way? What with Ellman and the JC's accusation of antisemitic bullying being exposed for what it was and the revelation that only one person is going to be prosecuted from that thick dossier of hate crime, it's been a good couple of weeks for factual evidence.
Amazing what happens when you look at things objectively rather than making accusations or just taking them as read. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 15:55 - Mar 9 with 1791 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:45 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
I think you have to read it for a few days or weeks to work out what it is, general reporting off things with a few snippets from insiders - appreciate that just looking at one piece, and then one e-mail in isolation will not portray that - it's an interesting daily e-mail though.
Have just read the piece by Oborne and Phillips and find I disagree with him. I think the conflation between deliberately insular communities and communities that end up being formed by similar people is poor.
I think those do call out other religions for their backwards views, whilst seeing the good they can do - but the reality is most other religions in this country are shrinking, whereas Islam is growing which make it different and spreads very un-British values - i.e. how women are seen as total 2nd class citizens and subservient to men |
TBF, your last paragraph could equally apply to ultra-orthodox Jews. They've long been a problem in Israel (where they've been pushing for women to have to sit in different part of public buses to men and won't allow women to become MPs in their parties, which have 18 of the 120 seats in the Knesset), but there are also problems with the community in the UK, for instance with illegal schools. With an average of nearly six children per family, they are not shrinking either (although growing from a much smaller base) |  | | |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:56 - Mar 9 with 1787 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:45 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
I think you have to read it for a few days or weeks to work out what it is, general reporting off things with a few snippets from insiders - appreciate that just looking at one piece, and then one e-mail in isolation will not portray that - it's an interesting daily e-mail though.
Have just read the piece by Oborne and Phillips and find I disagree with him. I think the conflation between deliberately insular communities and communities that end up being formed by similar people is poor.
I think those do call out other religions for their backwards views, whilst seeing the good they can do - but the reality is most other religions in this country are shrinking, whereas Islam is growing which make it different and spreads very un-British values - i.e. how women are seen as total 2nd class citizens and subservient to men |
Well, I at least know where you stand on that. I think you're very wrong to ignore fundamentalist religion as a whole and treat Islam as a separate and more serious case.
It also reduces 2.5 million Muslims to a single monolithic group. One of my best friends is Turkish and he's being lumped in with religious nutjobs with extremely conservative views - that's insane.
Would you apply the same standard to the Jewish community? If not, why not? | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:04 - Mar 9 with 1764 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:55 - Mar 9 by Clapham_Junction |
TBF, your last paragraph could equally apply to ultra-orthodox Jews. They've long been a problem in Israel (where they've been pushing for women to have to sit in different part of public buses to men and won't allow women to become MPs in their parties, which have 18 of the 120 seats in the Knesset), but there are also problems with the community in the UK, for instance with illegal schools. With an average of nearly six children per family, they are not shrinking either (although growing from a much smaller base) |
So what?
I have a massive problem with the teachings and values of most (if not all) religions and this certainly includes Islam - which is bonkers on so many levels and has views not compatible with the free world I want to live in.
I'm a Catholic by birth and they are completely barmy as well.
It's not a game of tit for tat - he said, she said. You can't defend something on the basis that something else is as bad. |  |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:11 - Mar 9 with 1753 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:55 - Mar 9 by Clapham_Junction |
TBF, your last paragraph could equally apply to ultra-orthodox Jews. They've long been a problem in Israel (where they've been pushing for women to have to sit in different part of public buses to men and won't allow women to become MPs in their parties, which have 18 of the 120 seats in the Knesset), but there are also problems with the community in the UK, for instance with illegal schools. With an average of nearly six children per family, they are not shrinking either (although growing from a much smaller base) |
whatabouthejews | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:12 - Mar 9 with 1750 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:56 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
Well, I at least know where you stand on that. I think you're very wrong to ignore fundamentalist religion as a whole and treat Islam as a separate and more serious case.
It also reduces 2.5 million Muslims to a single monolithic group. One of my best friends is Turkish and he's being lumped in with religious nutjobs with extremely conservative views - that's insane.
Would you apply the same standard to the Jewish community? If not, why not? |
whataboutthejews | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:13 - Mar 9 with 1748 views | itfcjoe |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:55 - Mar 9 by Clapham_Junction |
TBF, your last paragraph could equally apply to ultra-orthodox Jews. They've long been a problem in Israel (where they've been pushing for women to have to sit in different part of public buses to men and won't allow women to become MPs in their parties, which have 18 of the 120 seats in the Knesset), but there are also problems with the community in the UK, for instance with illegal schools. With an average of nearly six children per family, they are not shrinking either (although growing from a much smaller base) |
I don't agree with that also, I remember reading a story about how they need to have a high level wire around their community (and it isn't just Jews living there) And thinking it is absolutely bonkers and should not be happening
I'm all for making people feel welcome, but there has to be limits to it and there needs to be an attempt to integrate, not isolate
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/09/residents-divided-over-plans-for-e | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:15 - Mar 9 with 1747 views | itfcjoe |
| Oborne nails it again on 15:56 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
Well, I at least know where you stand on that. I think you're very wrong to ignore fundamentalist religion as a whole and treat Islam as a separate and more serious case.
It also reduces 2.5 million Muslims to a single monolithic group. One of my best friends is Turkish and he's being lumped in with religious nutjobs with extremely conservative views - that's insane.
Would you apply the same standard to the Jewish community? If not, why not? |
I don't know enough about them, but the reality is that the Muslim's who are most fundamentalist are the ones who have the highest profile - and in reality give the others a bad name. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:19 - Mar 9 with 1737 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:04 - Mar 9 by Lord_Lucan |
So what?
I have a massive problem with the teachings and values of most (if not all) religions and this certainly includes Islam - which is bonkers on so many levels and has views not compatible with the free world I want to live in.
I'm a Catholic by birth and they are completely barmy as well.
It's not a game of tit for tat - he said, she said. You can't defend something on the basis that something else is as bad. |
I'm sure you and Clapham agree. There's no point in a tit-for-tat where religion is concerned - it's all dangerous in the wrong hands.
This is about a double standard where a community can be condemned en masse due to their nominal religion even when a great many are only cultural Muslims rather than believers. And that's still a long way from the fundamentalism and intolerance of the most extreme.
If you applied that to the Jewish community, you'd rightly be called out as an antisemite especially if you doubled down and said you're singling out that community because they're "different" from everyone else. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:24 - Mar 9 with 1728 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:19 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
I'm sure you and Clapham agree. There's no point in a tit-for-tat where religion is concerned - it's all dangerous in the wrong hands.
This is about a double standard where a community can be condemned en masse due to their nominal religion even when a great many are only cultural Muslims rather than believers. And that's still a long way from the fundamentalism and intolerance of the most extreme.
If you applied that to the Jewish community, you'd rightly be called out as an antisemite especially if you doubled down and said you're singling out that community because they're "different" from everyone else. |
Whataboutthejews | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:25 - Mar 9 with 1728 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:15 - Mar 9 by itfcjoe |
I don't know enough about them, but the reality is that the Muslim's who are most fundamentalist are the ones who have the highest profile - and in reality give the others a bad name. |
You mean Sadiq Khan and Zain Malik?
If you mean those who speak out on community and identity issues then that's the same in the Jewish community. The Chief Rabbis and Board of Deputies are religious and socially conservative. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:26 - Mar 9 with 1724 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:25 - Mar 9 by Darth_Koont |
You mean Sadiq Khan and Zain Malik?
If you mean those who speak out on community and identity issues then that's the same in the Jewish community. The Chief Rabbis and Board of Deputies are religious and socially conservative. |
Whataboutthejews
Fook me you are obsessed by them koonters. Do you check for Jews under your bed each night? | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:26 - Mar 9 with 1724 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:04 - Mar 9 by Lord_Lucan |
So what?
I have a massive problem with the teachings and values of most (if not all) religions and this certainly includes Islam - which is bonkers on so many levels and has views not compatible with the free world I want to live in.
I'm a Catholic by birth and they are completely barmy as well.
It's not a game of tit for tat - he said, she said. You can't defend something on the basis that something else is as bad. |
I completely share your views about religion and I'm not defending the backwards elements of the Muslim community (I have previously commented on here about the unfairness of women having to wear burkas when their husbands are in jeans and t-shirts, which I see regularly in Tower Hamlets).
I was just pointing out that Islam is not the only growing religion with backwards views, which is what I got the impression Joe was suggesting. | | | |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:28 - Mar 9 with 1719 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:24 - Mar 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Whataboutthejews |
Sigh.
There's you being disingenuous again. And always incapable of dealing with an objective discussion. | |
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| Oborne nails it again on 16:30 - Mar 9 with 1710 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oborne nails it again on 16:26 - Mar 9 by GlasgowBlue |
Whataboutthejews
Fook me you are obsessed by them koonters. Do you check for Jews under your bed each night? |
So you attack me even when I'm defending the Jewish community and their right not to be discriminated against?
It's almost like this is just a big game to you ... | |
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