| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. 17:36 - May 12 with 3658 views | tractordownsouth |
Really smart move in my view. To some voters, he still has to shake of the tag of being an ardent remainer, so he won't want to be seen as wanting to stop us leaving for good at the end of the year. Instead, he knows the Johnson won't be able to negotiate a full deal by the end of the year, so he's essentially forcing the Tories to choose between no deal and economic chaos or breaking their main election pledge.
Good ratings for Starmer from YouGov here, now level with Johnson. Interestingly, a +10 net approval among leave voters.
[Post edited 12 May 2020 17:36]
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:33 - May 13 with 622 views | Beckets |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:28 - May 13 by vilanovablue |
I've had very similar conversations recently. He can just say that following his illness he feels someone with more "energy" is needed to move things forward and gives him free rein to return to journalism and then writes his memoirs painting himself in a wonderful light! |
He was destroyed by Starmer at today’s PMQs to the extent that it was embarrassing. |  | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:41 - May 13 with 613 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 09:14 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
But if you believe that crashing out of the EU will take the country back to the stone ages and believe that millions of job losses will occur, the mental and physical health isSues that comes with it, the homelessness, no money to invest in the NHS, child poverty massively increasing, then surely you want the leader of the opposition to do everything in his power to prevent such a scenario?
It’s the dilemma that has been discussed on here for the past five years. Do we want a politically smart opposition who will do what it takes to get into power or do we want a principled opposition which is less politically savvy and never gets in the position to enact its policies.
With this move Starmer is showing he has political savv. But he’s certainly ditching his principles in pursuit of the political game.
And this is by no means a criticism. |
It’s brilliant, he’s completely outflanked Cummings and will be interesting to see exactly how they now to try blame Labour for the whole sh1tshow. |  | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:47 - May 13 with 604 views | pointofblue |
The opposition cannot just oppose forever, especially with something as important as Brexit. Whatever his principle is he needs to take a stand and make it clear - not just inch around either way without either supporting or calling it out. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:54 - May 13 with 593 views | gordon |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 09:14 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
But if you believe that crashing out of the EU will take the country back to the stone ages and believe that millions of job losses will occur, the mental and physical health isSues that comes with it, the homelessness, no money to invest in the NHS, child poverty massively increasing, then surely you want the leader of the opposition to do everything in his power to prevent such a scenario?
It’s the dilemma that has been discussed on here for the past five years. Do we want a politically smart opposition who will do what it takes to get into power or do we want a principled opposition which is less politically savvy and never gets in the position to enact its policies.
With this move Starmer is showing he has political savv. But he’s certainly ditching his principles in pursuit of the political game.
And this is by no means a criticism. |
There's literally no means by which he can prevent the UK crashing out at the moment, so there's nothing unprincipled about what he's doing, as far as I can see.
'The government say they can get a comprehensive trade deal sorted in 6 weeks in a global pandemic when they still appear not to understand the compromises they have already agreed to, so let's keep an eye on their progress,' seems sensible to me.
The Government obviously will have to ask for an extension, but if they decide not to, there will then still be six months to prevent the government destroying our economy - and Starmer's attempts to do so then will be more trusted and supported if he comes across as reasonable now. |  | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:57 - May 13 with 582 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:47 - May 13 by pointofblue |
The opposition cannot just oppose forever, especially with something as important as Brexit. Whatever his principle is he needs to take a stand and make it clear - not just inch around either way without either supporting or calling it out. |
It's not his mess. We have the vote Leave squad running the country now, they wanted Brexit and delivering it is now in their hands. |  |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 13:01 - May 13 with 578 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:47 - May 13 by pointofblue |
The opposition cannot just oppose forever, especially with something as important as Brexit. Whatever his principle is he needs to take a stand and make it clear - not just inch around either way without either supporting or calling it out. |
The opposition have been managing to oppose for over 750 years, so I suspect they can carry on for a little while longer. |  |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 13:06 - May 13 with 566 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:57 - May 13 by Herbivore |
It's not his mess. We have the vote Leave squad running the country now, they wanted Brexit and delivering it is now in their hands. |
Precisely.
Starmer’s views on Brexit are well known, it’s total idiocy. Now the idiots have to own their idiocy.
There is nothing whatsoever Starmer can do to stop Brexit, that battle is lost, now he needs to set his mind to holding those responsible to account. This is an excellent start. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 13:24 - May 13 with 554 views | tractordownsouth |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 09:14 - May 13 by GlasgowBlue |
But if you believe that crashing out of the EU will take the country back to the stone ages and believe that millions of job losses will occur, the mental and physical health isSues that comes with it, the homelessness, no money to invest in the NHS, child poverty massively increasing, then surely you want the leader of the opposition to do everything in his power to prevent such a scenario?
It’s the dilemma that has been discussed on here for the past five years. Do we want a politically smart opposition who will do what it takes to get into power or do we want a principled opposition which is less politically savvy and never gets in the position to enact its policies.
With this move Starmer is showing he has political savv. But he’s certainly ditching his principles in pursuit of the political game.
And this is by no means a criticism. |
Yeah but he has no power to prevent a no deal. Whereas he does have power to protect his reputation and show the Tories up, which in turn increases the chances of a Labour government next time so he can tackle homelessness, low pay etc | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 16:48 - May 13 with 517 views | manchego |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 12:57 - May 13 by Herbivore |
It's not his mess. We have the vote Leave squad running the country now, they wanted Brexit and delivering it is now in their hands. |
If he opposes brexit / no deal / whatever, he is "denying the outcome of the referendum" or "hating democracy".
If he doesn't he is "ditching his principles".
I keep thinking of the phrase "you won, get over it" |  | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:32 - May 13 with 494 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 13:24 - May 13 by tractordownsouth |
Yeah but he has no power to prevent a no deal. Whereas he does have power to protect his reputation and show the Tories up, which in turn increases the chances of a Labour government next time so he can tackle homelessness, low pay etc |
That's a gamble though. When have the Tories really owned Brexit or been scared of the cliff edge?
It'll be the "will of the people" even in the worst scenario. And far too many of the government, their backers and their fanboys want a chaotic, free-for-all exit anyway.
At the very least Starmer should have laid down a marker that the government doesn't look capable of making a deal in the timeframe nor does coronavirus uncertainty make that desirable.
Holding government to account is holding government to account. Not letting things slide because it'll be even worse later. The Labour party look complicit in that now. |  |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:41 - May 13 with 484 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:58 - May 12 by Swansea_Blue |
Quite. I'd just like to know what someone actually believes in, but then I'm simple like that. |
Really?
You don’t know what Starmer believes regarding Brexit?
This isn’t about what he thinks, it’s about what Labour’s policy will be. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:50 - May 13 with 477 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:41 - May 13 by m14_blue |
Really?
You don’t know what Starmer believes regarding Brexit?
This isn’t about what he thinks, it’s about what Labour’s policy will be. |
Brexit, yeah. But I though GB's point was broader than that in terms of his views on what's best for the country. How are his views and beliefs going to shape, as you say, policy. I agree that's what's important and was probably conflating those two things. I don't know where he would like to go other than, I suspect, a lurch back towards the centre away from full nationalisation and the like. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 18:14 - May 13 with 469 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:50 - May 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Brexit, yeah. But I though GB's point was broader than that in terms of his views on what's best for the country. How are his views and beliefs going to shape, as you say, policy. I agree that's what's important and was probably conflating those two things. I don't know where he would like to go other than, I suspect, a lurch back towards the centre away from full nationalisation and the like. |
That’s fair, completely agree. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:05 - May 13 with 450 views | pointofblue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 17:32 - May 13 by Darth_Koont |
That's a gamble though. When have the Tories really owned Brexit or been scared of the cliff edge?
It'll be the "will of the people" even in the worst scenario. And far too many of the government, their backers and their fanboys want a chaotic, free-for-all exit anyway.
At the very least Starmer should have laid down a marker that the government doesn't look capable of making a deal in the timeframe nor does coronavirus uncertainty make that desirable.
Holding government to account is holding government to account. Not letting things slide because it'll be even worse later. The Labour party look complicit in that now. |
I agree though I do understand Starmer’s reluctance. The problem is I think Corbyn sitting on the fence over Brexit cost him dear and Starmer has to be careful he doesn’t go the same way - otherwise Labour will look like ditherers. When you try to please everyone you tend to end up pleasing no one. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:09 - May 13 with 447 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:05 - May 13 by pointofblue |
I agree though I do understand Starmer’s reluctance. The problem is I think Corbyn sitting on the fence over Brexit cost him dear and Starmer has to be careful he doesn’t go the same way - otherwise Labour will look like ditherers. When you try to please everyone you tend to end up pleasing no one. |
It cost him dear because it was at a time when the country desperately needed clarity and when it could have made a material difference to all of our futures (and our kids even more so).
I can’t believe there are many remainers out there who don’t understand Starmer’s position and why he’s taken it.
Brexit is done, the liars and charlatans responsible for it will escape the worst repercussions because coronavirus will hide most of the damage but even so.... | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:24 - May 13 with 437 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:09 - May 13 by m14_blue |
It cost him dear because it was at a time when the country desperately needed clarity and when it could have made a material difference to all of our futures (and our kids even more so).
I can’t believe there are many remainers out there who don’t understand Starmer’s position and why he’s taken it.
Brexit is done, the liars and charlatans responsible for it will escape the worst repercussions because coronavirus will hide most of the damage but even so.... |
But there was clarity.
It was get the Tories and No Deal out of the way, negotiate the "best" deal with the EU and then get people to vote on that. Starmer was a part of that and I don't criticise him in the slightest.
Now we *seem* to be back playing politics.
If there's anything this crisis has shown it's that we need our politicians to be brutally honest and responsible. Otherwise no-one knows the way forward. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:28 - May 13 with 433 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:24 - May 13 by Darth_Koont |
But there was clarity.
It was get the Tories and No Deal out of the way, negotiate the "best" deal with the EU and then get people to vote on that. Starmer was a part of that and I don't criticise him in the slightest.
Now we *seem* to be back playing politics.
If there's anything this crisis has shown it's that we need our politicians to be brutally honest and responsible. Otherwise no-one knows the way forward. |
I’m not going to rake over Labour’s Brexit position at the last election, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Let’s just say I’m extremely confident that Starmer’s stance won’t damage his chances in the same way, but it will neuter another obvious deflection tactic from an increasingly desperate right wing press as they try to prop up this pathetic administration. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:28 - May 13 with 433 views | pointofblue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:24 - May 13 by Darth_Koont |
But there was clarity.
It was get the Tories and No Deal out of the way, negotiate the "best" deal with the EU and then get people to vote on that. Starmer was a part of that and I don't criticise him in the slightest.
Now we *seem* to be back playing politics.
If there's anything this crisis has shown it's that we need our politicians to be brutally honest and responsible. Otherwise no-one knows the way forward. |
Can the public handle politicians being brutally honest and responsible.
I can see the arguments from both sides relating to Theresa May’s ‘dementia tax’ in 2017 but at the very least it was a policy to try and shore up the hole in social care. I thought at the time it was an example of brutal honesty in a manifesto which was roundly rejected by the electorate. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:43 - May 14 with 394 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 19:28 - May 13 by m14_blue |
I’m not going to rake over Labour’s Brexit position at the last election, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Let’s just say I’m extremely confident that Starmer’s stance won’t damage his chances in the same way, but it will neuter another obvious deflection tactic from an increasingly desperate right wing press as they try to prop up this pathetic administration. |
We'll have to see how many of the hardcore Brexiteers and potential Labour voters will get past Starmer being a prominent Remainer. An election is still probably a few years down the line but Brexit has become so entrenched that there's been little sign of people letting go - even when all the evidence points to a poor outcome. Unfortunately, I can see Brexiteers and their press digging in even further the worse it becomes.
They'll also call him boring, priveleged because he's a Sir, part of the London elite and will blame him for every prosecution and crime during his time as DPP. It won't hold any more water than the accusations against Corbyn but that won't matter for them and their audience.
Think the key will be how much the supposedly neutral and leftish media support Starmer and counter the narrative. But in turn that will probably depend on how much Starmer and the party leadership follow the members in terms of policy and threaten to change the status quo. And not doing so will create another internal war.
Probably still too early with Coronavirus uncertainty but think Starmer will need to set out his stall relatively early to see which way the wind will blow and how hard. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:52 - May 14 with 385 views | gordon |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:43 - May 14 by Darth_Koont |
We'll have to see how many of the hardcore Brexiteers and potential Labour voters will get past Starmer being a prominent Remainer. An election is still probably a few years down the line but Brexit has become so entrenched that there's been little sign of people letting go - even when all the evidence points to a poor outcome. Unfortunately, I can see Brexiteers and their press digging in even further the worse it becomes.
They'll also call him boring, priveleged because he's a Sir, part of the London elite and will blame him for every prosecution and crime during his time as DPP. It won't hold any more water than the accusations against Corbyn but that won't matter for them and their audience.
Think the key will be how much the supposedly neutral and leftish media support Starmer and counter the narrative. But in turn that will probably depend on how much Starmer and the party leadership follow the members in terms of policy and threaten to change the status quo. And not doing so will create another internal war.
Probably still too early with Coronavirus uncertainty but think Starmer will need to set out his stall relatively early to see which way the wind will blow and how hard. |
I think the bigger problem about Corbyn was that he was so incredibly evasive over Brexit, that any kudos he had built up as a 'principled' politician slipped away for lots of people.
Starmer is just going to be better at handling it, and once we do leave, there's going to be zero desire for anyone to want to talk about Brexit or another referendum, so I don't think Brexit will be that much of a big deal. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:53 - May 14 with 385 views | m14_blue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:43 - May 14 by Darth_Koont |
We'll have to see how many of the hardcore Brexiteers and potential Labour voters will get past Starmer being a prominent Remainer. An election is still probably a few years down the line but Brexit has become so entrenched that there's been little sign of people letting go - even when all the evidence points to a poor outcome. Unfortunately, I can see Brexiteers and their press digging in even further the worse it becomes.
They'll also call him boring, priveleged because he's a Sir, part of the London elite and will blame him for every prosecution and crime during his time as DPP. It won't hold any more water than the accusations against Corbyn but that won't matter for them and their audience.
Think the key will be how much the supposedly neutral and leftish media support Starmer and counter the narrative. But in turn that will probably depend on how much Starmer and the party leadership follow the members in terms of policy and threaten to change the status quo. And not doing so will create another internal war.
Probably still too early with Coronavirus uncertainty but think Starmer will need to set out his stall relatively early to see which way the wind will blow and how hard. |
I agree with all of that.
The press will definitely focus on him being boring (which he is) and privileged (which he isn’t) but I think, as the cult of Boris continues to unravel, they may sense the way the wind is blowing and jump ship. | | | |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:03 - May 14 with 374 views | tractordownsouth |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:53 - May 14 by m14_blue |
I agree with all of that.
The press will definitely focus on him being boring (which he is) and privileged (which he isn’t) but I think, as the cult of Boris continues to unravel, they may sense the way the wind is blowing and jump ship. |
The Sun and The Mail will never back Starmer but I do have a feeling that he may get a couple of the respectable traditionally Tory publications on side, such as The Times and the FT. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:14 - May 14 with 366 views | tractordownsouth |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 07:43 - May 14 by Darth_Koont |
We'll have to see how many of the hardcore Brexiteers and potential Labour voters will get past Starmer being a prominent Remainer. An election is still probably a few years down the line but Brexit has become so entrenched that there's been little sign of people letting go - even when all the evidence points to a poor outcome. Unfortunately, I can see Brexiteers and their press digging in even further the worse it becomes.
They'll also call him boring, priveleged because he's a Sir, part of the London elite and will blame him for every prosecution and crime during his time as DPP. It won't hold any more water than the accusations against Corbyn but that won't matter for them and their audience.
Think the key will be how much the supposedly neutral and leftish media support Starmer and counter the narrative. But in turn that will probably depend on how much Starmer and the party leadership follow the members in terms of policy and threaten to change the status quo. And not doing so will create another internal war.
Probably still too early with Coronavirus uncertainty but think Starmer will need to set out his stall relatively early to see which way the wind will blow and how hard. |
Yeah, I share a lot of those concerns but I'm slightly more optimistic - If the tabloids want to print nonsense about Keir supposedly letting off Jimmy Saville etc, they'll be on dodgy legal grounds, whereas they could print about Corbyn and McDonnell's past views on the IRA/Hamas and back it up with quotes. I know these papers are happy to wallow in the journalistic sewer but it may be a step too far to go with stories about Jimmy Saville.
I was part a Labour First Blairite scum Q&A with Ruth Smeeth, Anna Turley and Gareth Snell the other week and I asked whether Brexit would be such a big factor in their seats next time, when it becomes a reality and not a hope. They said that most people they met who went Tory did so because they didn't want to hear about Brexit anymore. Of course many of them will vote Tory next time too, but if the govt's own impact assessments are right and that Brexit shaves off over £100bn to our annual GDP, the Tories won't want to make Brexit an issue as it will highlight their own failings. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:43 - May 14 with 358 views | Herbivore |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:03 - May 14 by tractordownsouth |
The Sun and The Mail will never back Starmer but I do have a feeling that he may get a couple of the respectable traditionally Tory publications on side, such as The Times and the FT. |
The Mail definitely not, but the Sun sees itself as the paper of the people and if the people start shifting away from Johnson and towards Starmer I can see them following suit. There's much less ideology behind their bile than there is the Mail. Starmer has a long way to go though. We might all be impressed with his dismantling of Johnson at PMQs but 90% of the country either won't see it or won't care. | |
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| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:45 - May 14 with 356 views | pointofblue |
| Starmer refuses to back a Brexit transition extension. on 08:43 - May 14 by Herbivore |
The Mail definitely not, but the Sun sees itself as the paper of the people and if the people start shifting away from Johnson and towards Starmer I can see them following suit. There's much less ideology behind their bile than there is the Mail. Starmer has a long way to go though. We might all be impressed with his dismantling of Johnson at PMQs but 90% of the country either won't see it or won't care. |
The Sun’s already called on Johnson to come clean about the care home crisis otherwise it looks like a cover up. As said, they’re not quite ready to back Starmer either, accusing him of political opportunism.
ETA: I feel unclean - just clarify, this is from the BBC’s Front Pages article; I don’t buy pr read The Sun. [Post edited 14 May 2020 8:47]
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