| Democray kind of sucks 20:38 - Sep 10 with 4613 views | Dyland |
I'm depressed.
What's the point of civilisation and democracy?
It sucks.
In any other (uncivilised society) Gove and Johnson would have been tarred, feathered, flayed and beheaded by now.
ffs |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:13 - Sep 10 with 1275 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 21:11 - Sep 10 by Footballpete |
Did Votes for parties that advocated a second referendum outnumber parties that voted to leave in the last election? I honestly don’t know that but my gut says no.
I agree that our system is not particularly democratic, with millions of votes in safe seats being essentially meaningless ( in the last three elections I’ve either voted in the royal borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, or Suffolk coastal, for a lefty like me voting was utterly pointless). I’m not sure the Brexit issue is a good example of it. |
I’ll help you out with your first question. They didn’t, by quite some margin. With that I think this thread is pretty much a moot point. |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:15 - Sep 10 with 1278 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 22:14 - Sep 10 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think anti-Brexit parties just shaded it:
CON Conservative 43.6%
LAB Labour 32.2%
LD Liberal Democrat 11.5%
SNP Scottish National Party 3.9%
GRN Green 2.7%
BRX The Brexit Party 2.0%
Anyone still supporting FPTP after that result above gave an 80 seat majority to the Tories has an alternative definition of democracy... |
The most remarkable thing about those statistics is that the Conservatives swept up a lot of disgruntled traditionally Labour voters who want to "get Brexit done". Since it will have been done (whatever that means) and they will have demonstrably lost from being lied to (although I am sure the Tories will do all they can to blame Covid and claim they have won after all), the question for me is: will they vote for Labour next time around? If so, that's an awful lot of votes for the Tories to make up to win again.
However, even then, it is still nearly 4 more years before we find out. |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:15 - Sep 10 with 1275 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 22:14 - Sep 10 by Ewan_Oozami |
I think anti-Brexit parties just shaded it:
CON Conservative 43.6%
LAB Labour 32.2%
LD Liberal Democrat 11.5%
SNP Scottish National Party 3.9%
GRN Green 2.7%
BRX The Brexit Party 2.0%
Anyone still supporting FPTP after that result above gave an 80 seat majority to the Tories has an alternative definition of democracy... |
Were labour an anti Brexit party? Did they advocate a second referendum? Im not sure, were they even sure? | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:18 - Sep 10 with 1273 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:13 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
I’ll help you out with your first question. They didn’t, by quite some margin. With that I think this thread is pretty much a moot point. |
Show your workings, I did.... |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:20 - Sep 10 with 1269 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:15 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
Were labour an anti Brexit party? Did they advocate a second referendum? Im not sure, were they even sure? |
Anti-Brexit in terms of what was on offer at the election, ie, not the Tory Brexit.
Labour had definitely committed to a second ref for the election.
Should have made that clearer... [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:21]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:25 - Sep 10 with 1256 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:20 - Sep 10 by Ewan_Oozami |
Anti-Brexit in terms of what was on offer at the election, ie, not the Tory Brexit.
Labour had definitely committed to a second ref for the election.
Should have made that clearer... [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:21]
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I genuinely can’t remember exactly what they said. From memory it was something like renegotiate a deal, legislate both that deal and a referendum, then god knows what happens. Anyway, if you count labour as an anti Brexit party then yes anti Brexit shades it ... point is I’m not sure you can ... | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:28 - Sep 10 with 1252 views | 26_Paz |
See my response below. Point is labour offered some weird compromise ... a number of labour voters would have been pro Brexit. I do not believe based on statements at the time that labour can be considered 100% anti Brexit at the time of the 2019 election | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:35 - Sep 10 with 1233 views | giant_stow |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:28 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
See my response below. Point is labour offered some weird compromise ... a number of labour voters would have been pro Brexit. I do not believe based on statements at the time that labour can be considered 100% anti Brexit at the time of the 2019 election |
Labour's position allowed the tories to claim that 80 something % of parliament back brexit. |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:36 - Sep 10 with 1234 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:28 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
See my response below. Point is labour offered some weird compromise ... a number of labour voters would have been pro Brexit. I do not believe based on statements at the time that labour can be considered 100% anti Brexit at the time of the 2019 election |
Which is a fair point, however, that does not negate the fact that more people voted against the Tories than voted for them, but an 80 seat majority was the result. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:39 - Sep 10 with 1227 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:25 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
I genuinely can’t remember exactly what they said. From memory it was something like renegotiate a deal, legislate both that deal and a referendum, then god knows what happens. Anyway, if you count labour as an anti Brexit party then yes anti Brexit shades it ... point is I’m not sure you can ... |
If you look at which seats the Conservatives won and where the Brexit vote was won, a basic understanding of politics shows that "Get Brexit done" won them the election by the majority they got with the vote share they had.
Labour were clearly against that message. They were clearly for a second referendum.
The only way you argue the second referendum was less popular is to claim the LibDem message was not for a second referendum. It was not. It was for cancelling the whole debacle altogether. To suggest anyone who voted LibDem would take "Get Brexit done" over a second referendum would be disingenuous.
Clearly 50.3% of the electorate voted for parties whose platforms were either cancel Brexit or have another say as the detail is clearer. Those who voted for parties that were clear for Brexit to take place represent 45.6%. That has been seen as a clear mandate for Boris to steamroll his own version through because of our democratic system despite only 43.6% possibly supporting his version at all. Plus I know of people who still voted Tory despite opposing Brexit because they couldn't possibly allow commie Corbyn in. I don't know of anyone who supported Brexit who voted Labour or LibDem. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:41 - Sep 10 with 1223 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:36 - Sep 10 by Ewan_Oozami |
Which is a fair point, however, that does not negate the fact that more people voted against the Tories than voted for them, but an 80 seat majority was the result. |
Fair point, can’t argue with that. What I’m saying is a percentage (no one will ever know what) labour voters at the election would have been pro Brexit. This makes it impossible to determine a straight pro / anti Brexit split from the 2019 general election vote. You can’t just stack all labour votes in the anti Brexit pile | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:41 - Sep 10 with 1228 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
That wasn't the question. The question was having a second referendum which is clearly stated in the first paragraph. A second vote on a very different version to Johnson's. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:43 - Sep 10 with 1218 views | Ryorry |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:15 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The most remarkable thing about those statistics is that the Conservatives swept up a lot of disgruntled traditionally Labour voters who want to "get Brexit done". Since it will have been done (whatever that means) and they will have demonstrably lost from being lied to (although I am sure the Tories will do all they can to blame Covid and claim they have won after all), the question for me is: will they vote for Labour next time around? If so, that's an awful lot of votes for the Tories to make up to win again.
However, even then, it is still nearly 4 more years before we find out. |
Is it a thing tho that the more wildly incompetent, untrustworthy, and now criminal in seeking to break international law this Govt. becomes, the more Tory MPs will rebel & call for a vote of no-confidence re Johnson? |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:43 - Sep 10 with 1215 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:39 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If you look at which seats the Conservatives won and where the Brexit vote was won, a basic understanding of politics shows that "Get Brexit done" won them the election by the majority they got with the vote share they had.
Labour were clearly against that message. They were clearly for a second referendum.
The only way you argue the second referendum was less popular is to claim the LibDem message was not for a second referendum. It was not. It was for cancelling the whole debacle altogether. To suggest anyone who voted LibDem would take "Get Brexit done" over a second referendum would be disingenuous.
Clearly 50.3% of the electorate voted for parties whose platforms were either cancel Brexit or have another say as the detail is clearer. Those who voted for parties that were clear for Brexit to take place represent 45.6%. That has been seen as a clear mandate for Boris to steamroll his own version through because of our democratic system despite only 43.6% possibly supporting his version at all. Plus I know of people who still voted Tory despite opposing Brexit because they couldn't possibly allow commie Corbyn in. I don't know of anyone who supported Brexit who voted Labour or LibDem. |
There were still some leave voters who stuck with labour in 2019 | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:44 - Sep 10 with 1214 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:41 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
Fair point, can’t argue with that. What I’m saying is a percentage (no one will ever know what) labour voters at the election would have been pro Brexit. This makes it impossible to determine a straight pro / anti Brexit split from the 2019 general election vote. You can’t just stack all labour votes in the anti Brexit pile |
If they voted Labour (and many didn't), they supported the chance to have a confirmatory referendum which was Labour's clearly stated position. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:44 - Sep 10 with 1209 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:43 - Sep 10 by Ryorry |
Is it a thing tho that the more wildly incompetent, untrustworthy, and now criminal in seeking to break international law this Govt. becomes, the more Tory MPs will rebel & call for a vote of no-confidence re Johnson? |
With an 80 seat majority a no confidence vote is pretty much impossible. May got through one without a majority | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:45 - Sep 10 with 1206 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:43 - Sep 10 by Ryorry |
Is it a thing tho that the more wildly incompetent, untrustworthy, and now criminal in seeking to break international law this Govt. becomes, the more Tory MPs will rebel & call for a vote of no-confidence re Johnson? |
I don't know. They elected him with that record in the first place. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:46 - Sep 10 with 1200 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:44 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If they voted Labour (and many didn't), they supported the chance to have a confirmatory referendum which was Labour's clearly stated position. |
So you can’t lump all labour votes in a firm anti Brexit pile | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 23:46 - Sep 10 with 1200 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:44 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If they voted Labour (and many didn't), they supported the chance to have a confirmatory referendum which was Labour's clearly stated position. |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:47 - Sep 10 with 1200 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:46 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
So you can’t lump all labour votes in a firm anti Brexit pile |
But you can in a "have a second referendum one" which is what was stated and you questioned. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:47 - Sep 10 with 1196 views | Ryorry |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:44 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
With an 80 seat majority a no confidence vote is pretty much impossible. May got through one without a majority |
The vibes coming out of the 10pm newsrooms were that there were a *lot* of potential Tory rebels becoming very seriously unhappy and fidgety. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:48]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:49 - Sep 10 with 1189 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:47 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
But you can in a "have a second referendum one" which is what was stated and you questioned. |
Did I? I thought I questioned the statement that ‘anti Brexit’ parties ‘shaded it’ at the 2019 election | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:51 - Sep 10 with 1181 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:47 - Sep 10 by Ryorry |
The vibes coming out of the 10pm newsrooms were that there were a *lot* of potential Tory rebels becoming very seriously unhappy and fidgety. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:48]
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There’s a long way to go from being fidgety to voting against your own party in a no confidence vote. An internal leadership challenge to BJ, possibly. A no confidence vote in the commons, no chance. | |
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