| Democray kind of sucks 20:38 - Sep 10 with 4615 views | Dyland |
I'm depressed.
What's the point of civilisation and democracy?
It sucks.
In any other (uncivilised society) Gove and Johnson would have been tarred, feathered, flayed and beheaded by now.
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:52 - Sep 10 with 684 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:49 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
Did I? I thought I questioned the statement that ‘anti Brexit’ parties ‘shaded it’ at the 2019 election |
Ah, QED dear boy on 23:13 - Sep 10 with 40 views 26_Paz
Ah, QED dear boy on 21:11 - Sep 10 by Footballpete
Did Votes for parties that advocated a second referendum outnumber parties that voted to leave in the last election? I honestly don’t know that but my gut says no.
I agree that our system is not particularly democratic, with millions of votes in safe seats being essentially meaningless ( in the last three elections I’ve either voted in the royal borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, or Suffolk coastal, for a lefty like me voting was utterly pointless). I’m not sure the Brexit issue is a good example of it.
Your reply to the above: I’ll help you out with your first question. They didn’t, by quite some margin. With that I think this thread is pretty much a moot point.
Apols for not being able to link that better. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:56]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:53 - Sep 10 with 684 views | BlueBadger |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:43 - Sep 10 by Ryorry |
Is it a thing tho that the more wildly incompetent, untrustworthy, and now criminal in seeking to break international law this Govt. becomes, the more Tory MPs will rebel & call for a vote of no-confidence re Johnson? |
I very much doubt it. The ones who aren't the sort of posturing populist sociopath who actively laps this up are shameless forelock tuggers who've long since sacrificed any kind of principle for their seat at the trough. |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:59 - Sep 10 with 670 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:52 - Sep 10 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Ah, QED dear boy on 23:13 - Sep 10 with 40 views 26_Paz
Ah, QED dear boy on 21:11 - Sep 10 by Footballpete
Did Votes for parties that advocated a second referendum outnumber parties that voted to leave in the last election? I honestly don’t know that but my gut says no.
I agree that our system is not particularly democratic, with millions of votes in safe seats being essentially meaningless ( in the last three elections I’ve either voted in the royal borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, or Suffolk coastal, for a lefty like me voting was utterly pointless). I’m not sure the Brexit issue is a good example of it.
Your reply to the above: I’ll help you out with your first question. They didn’t, by quite some margin. With that I think this thread is pretty much a moot point.
Apols for not being able to link that better. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 23:56]
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Fair enough (I can just about make that out from you dodgy link!) looks like my opening gambit was indeed incorrect, for which I apologies, I concede parties advocating either a second referendum OR scrapping Brexit altogether tallied more votes than those advocating leave. I’m not sure the original point made the distinction between those advocating scrapping Brexit and those advocating a second referendum but still happy to stand corrected. My later posts took issues with the number crunching which counted labour as firmly anti Brexit, points which I stand by [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:01]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:01 - Sep 11 with 664 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:59 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
Fair enough (I can just about make that out from you dodgy link!) looks like my opening gambit was indeed incorrect, for which I apologies, I concede parties advocating either a second referendum OR scrapping Brexit altogether tallied more votes than those advocating leave. I’m not sure the original point made the distinction between those advocating scrapping Brexit and those advocating a second referendum but still happy to stand corrected. My later posts took issues with the number crunching which counted labour as firmly anti Brexit, points which I stand by [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:01]
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The point there is unedited and your response was factually incorrect. The bold highlights by me clearly make that link. You continued to argue it by saying the Labour position was unclear even in an article you linked that clearly stated it in the first paragraph.
Never mind, though. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:02 - Sep 11 with 663 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:59 - Sep 10 by 26_Paz |
Fair enough (I can just about make that out from you dodgy link!) looks like my opening gambit was indeed incorrect, for which I apologies, I concede parties advocating either a second referendum OR scrapping Brexit altogether tallied more votes than those advocating leave. I’m not sure the original point made the distinction between those advocating scrapping Brexit and those advocating a second referendum but still happy to stand corrected. My later posts took issues with the number crunching which counted labour as firmly anti Brexit, points which I stand by [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:01]
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Happy to be corrected here but not sure you can count the Lib Dems as advocating a second referendum, I think they just wanted to scrap the whole thing | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:03 - Sep 11 with 661 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:02 - Sep 11 by 26_Paz |
Happy to be corrected here but not sure you can count the Lib Dems as advocating a second referendum, I think they just wanted to scrap the whole thing |
I have answered that point above but again never mind. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:04 - Sep 11 with 657 views | Ryorry |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 23:53 - Sep 10 by BlueBadger |
I very much doubt it. The ones who aren't the sort of posturing populist sociopath who actively laps this up are shameless forelock tuggers who've long since sacrificed any kind of principle for their seat at the trough. |
Then Vive La Revolution! 
There must be some mechanism for ousting the visibly corrupt tho? Or maybe I'm just wishfully thinking.
But as one pretty respectable account put it -
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:08 - Sep 11 with 650 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:01 - Sep 11 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The point there is unedited and your response was factually incorrect. The bold highlights by me clearly make that link. You continued to argue it by saying the Labour position was unclear even in an article you linked that clearly stated it in the first paragraph.
Never mind, though. |
Looking at your bold text only. Votes for parties that advocated leave vs votes for parties that advocated a second referendum:
CON Conservative 43.6%
LAB Labour 32.2%
LD Liberal Democrat 11.5%
SNP Scottish National Party 3.9%
GRN Green 2.7%
BRX The Brexit Party 2.0%
The Lib Dems did not advocate a second referendum so discount them. Leave 45.6%. Second referendum (lab, snp, grn) 38.8%. Never mind though. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:11 - Sep 11 with 646 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:08 - Sep 11 by 26_Paz |
Looking at your bold text only. Votes for parties that advocated leave vs votes for parties that advocated a second referendum:
CON Conservative 43.6%
LAB Labour 32.2%
LD Liberal Democrat 11.5%
SNP Scottish National Party 3.9%
GRN Green 2.7%
BRX The Brexit Party 2.0%
The Lib Dems did not advocate a second referendum so discount them. Leave 45.6%. Second referendum (lab, snp, grn) 38.8%. Never mind though. |
My earlier post that you continue to ignore repeated for you:
If you look at which seats the Conservatives won and where the Brexit vote was won, a basic understanding of politics shows that "Get Brexit done" won them the election by the majority they got with the vote share they had.
Labour were clearly against that message. They were clearly for a second referendum.
The only way you argue the second referendum was less popular is to claim the LibDem message was not for a second referendum. It was not. It was for cancelling the whole debacle altogether. To suggest anyone who voted LibDem would take "Get Brexit done" over a second referendum would be disingenuous.
Clearly 50.3% of the electorate voted for parties whose platforms were either cancel Brexit or have another say as the detail is clearer. Those who voted for parties that were clear for Brexit to take place represent 45.6%. That has been seen as a clear mandate for Boris to steamroll his own version through because of our democratic system despite only 43.6% possibly supporting his version at all. Plus I know of people who still voted Tory despite opposing Brexit because they couldn't possibly allow commie Corbyn in. I don't know of anyone who supported Brexit who voted Labour or LibDem. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:13]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:15 - Sep 11 with 637 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:11 - Sep 11 by Nthsuffolkblue |
My earlier post that you continue to ignore repeated for you:
If you look at which seats the Conservatives won and where the Brexit vote was won, a basic understanding of politics shows that "Get Brexit done" won them the election by the majority they got with the vote share they had.
Labour were clearly against that message. They were clearly for a second referendum.
The only way you argue the second referendum was less popular is to claim the LibDem message was not for a second referendum. It was not. It was for cancelling the whole debacle altogether. To suggest anyone who voted LibDem would take "Get Brexit done" over a second referendum would be disingenuous.
Clearly 50.3% of the electorate voted for parties whose platforms were either cancel Brexit or have another say as the detail is clearer. Those who voted for parties that were clear for Brexit to take place represent 45.6%. That has been seen as a clear mandate for Boris to steamroll his own version through because of our democratic system despite only 43.6% possibly supporting his version at all. Plus I know of people who still voted Tory despite opposing Brexit because they couldn't possibly allow commie Corbyn in. I don't know of anyone who supported Brexit who voted Labour or LibDem. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:13]
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I was comparing your bold text like you asked me to.
The numbers are tight however you look at it. You’ll never work out true anti or pro Brexit numbers from looking at a general election as so many other issues are entwined ... | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:18 - Sep 11 with 630 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 21:11 - Sep 10 by Footballpete |
Did Votes for parties that advocated a second referendum outnumber parties that voted to leave in the last election? I honestly don’t know that but my gut says no.
I agree that our system is not particularly democratic, with millions of votes in safe seats being essentially meaningless ( in the last three elections I’ve either voted in the royal borough of Windsor and Maidenhead, or Suffolk coastal, for a lefty like me voting was utterly pointless). I’m not sure the Brexit issue is a good example of it. |
Yes. Ironically by 52% to 48%. |  | | |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:20 - Sep 11 with 629 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:15 - Sep 11 by 26_Paz |
I was comparing your bold text like you asked me to.
The numbers are tight however you look at it. You’ll never work out true anti or pro Brexit numbers from looking at a general election as so many other issues are entwined ... |
However, Brexit was clearly the big vote winner for Johnson. He also clearly won with a minority. The opposition parties clearly split the anti-Brexit vote between them too.
If you want some idea of how nuanced it all is and how split the electorate views are click on my poll that I set up a long time ago.
The issue should never have been put to the public. The misinformation in the campaigning should never have been allowed to go unchallenged in the media. It has been a massively divisive issue that is about to cause huge damage to the country and massive disappointment to many people.
EDIT: "You’ll never work out true anti or pro Brexit numbers from looking at a general election as so many other issues are entwined ..." so you need another referendum based on what is actually on offer now it should be clear! [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:22]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:22 - Sep 11 with 624 views | 26_Paz |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:20 - Sep 11 by Nthsuffolkblue |
However, Brexit was clearly the big vote winner for Johnson. He also clearly won with a minority. The opposition parties clearly split the anti-Brexit vote between them too.
If you want some idea of how nuanced it all is and how split the electorate views are click on my poll that I set up a long time ago.
The issue should never have been put to the public. The misinformation in the campaigning should never have been allowed to go unchallenged in the media. It has been a massively divisive issue that is about to cause huge damage to the country and massive disappointment to many people.
EDIT: "You’ll never work out true anti or pro Brexit numbers from looking at a general election as so many other issues are entwined ..." so you need another referendum based on what is actually on offer now it should be clear! [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 0:22]
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Well, that’s a whole other debate, not one for 00.22. I’m out for the night. Good night. | |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:24 - Sep 11 with 620 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:22 - Sep 11 by 26_Paz |
Well, that’s a whole other debate, not one for 00.22. I’m out for the night. Good night. |
Good night. Sleep well. | |
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| Democray kind of sucks on 05:42 - Sep 11 with 568 views | King_ding_a_lin_g |
Just want to add what a joy it is to read a political debate on here that hasn't descended into chaos.
Good show. |  | | |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:31 - Sep 11 with 532 views | gordon |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 00:04 - Sep 11 by Ryorry |
Then Vive La Revolution!
There must be some mechanism for ousting the visibly corrupt tho? Or maybe I'm just wishfully thinking.
But as one pretty respectable account put it -
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Yes, the whole point of Vote Leave was to create chaos amongst the institutions of state, the conditions in which an anarchist could effectively take over the British Government to play out his fantasy of being a tech genius, while siphoning off millions or maybe billions of public money to various shell companies here and there.
The disintegration of relations with Europe, Scotland, Wales and Ireland will help to radicalise the English nationalists, who are already too far gone to understand what it is that they are supporting. What's left of this country when it's over will be an awful, awful mess, and will take an awful long time to clear up.
Boris Johnson is just a convenient idiot. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 7:32]
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:37 - Sep 11 with 522 views | DanTheMan |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:31 - Sep 11 by gordon |
Yes, the whole point of Vote Leave was to create chaos amongst the institutions of state, the conditions in which an anarchist could effectively take over the British Government to play out his fantasy of being a tech genius, while siphoning off millions or maybe billions of public money to various shell companies here and there.
The disintegration of relations with Europe, Scotland, Wales and Ireland will help to radicalise the English nationalists, who are already too far gone to understand what it is that they are supporting. What's left of this country when it's over will be an awful, awful mess, and will take an awful long time to clear up.
Boris Johnson is just a convenient idiot. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 7:32]
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No idea how accurate the report was (think it was The Times?) that was saying that Cummings grand scheme is to have the Government almost act as a VC so tech companies, plowing state aid into them, to create some big ones to rival Google etc.
Whilst I think that aiding the tech sector is a good idea (I am of course biased here) I'm not sure how making our job much more difficult is going to help us really. You can give us all the money in the world but data sovereignty is about to become an absolute ballache.
At it stands I can see the EU saying that we need to store their citizens data in EU Datacentres. Now for a lot of UK tech companies, who have been hosting data here, that is going to become an enormous issue. That's without all the other regulations that we rely on being the same when trying to do business with the EU. |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:56 - Sep 11 with 516 views | gordon |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:37 - Sep 11 by DanTheMan |
No idea how accurate the report was (think it was The Times?) that was saying that Cummings grand scheme is to have the Government almost act as a VC so tech companies, plowing state aid into them, to create some big ones to rival Google etc.
Whilst I think that aiding the tech sector is a good idea (I am of course biased here) I'm not sure how making our job much more difficult is going to help us really. You can give us all the money in the world but data sovereignty is about to become an absolute ballache.
At it stands I can see the EU saying that we need to store their citizens data in EU Datacentres. Now for a lot of UK tech companies, who have been hosting data here, that is going to become an enormous issue. That's without all the other regulations that we rely on being the same when trying to do business with the EU. |
Yes, that's what no-deal brexit and 'sovereignty' means in this context, the stripping away any impediments to provide financial support to tech (and any regulations deemed unhelpful).
That's why the ERG and brexit supporters et al who have been inculcated into actually caring about the EU and sovereignty were such a blessing to Cummings, but also why Cummings has such contempt for them.
There's few people who can stop him now, because his reputation is so closely tied to the cabinet / senior government figures, and he will surely have enough dirt to end any of their careers, should he need to.
The consequences for more traditional industries in this country will be dreadful - they will have been told by Cummings that import/export barriers don't matter anyway, the UK isn't going to be a country that makes stuff anymore. As long as they can blame the EU for this to their radicalised supporters, who cares. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 7:58]
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| Democray kind of sucks on 10:38 - Sep 11 with 488 views | BlueBadger |
| Democray kind of sucks on 05:42 - Sep 11 by King_ding_a_lin_g |
Just want to add what a joy it is to read a political debate on here that hasn't descended into chaos.
Good show. |
SUQ | |
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| Democray kind of sucks on 11:05 - Sep 11 with 484 views | Swansea_Blue |
And as if that isn't bad enough, we also have fans looking enviously at Peterborough (and with some justification). |  |
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| Ah, QED dear boy on 11:16 - Sep 11 with 474 views | Ryorry |
| Ah, QED dear boy on 07:31 - Sep 11 by gordon |
Yes, the whole point of Vote Leave was to create chaos amongst the institutions of state, the conditions in which an anarchist could effectively take over the British Government to play out his fantasy of being a tech genius, while siphoning off millions or maybe billions of public money to various shell companies here and there.
The disintegration of relations with Europe, Scotland, Wales and Ireland will help to radicalise the English nationalists, who are already too far gone to understand what it is that they are supporting. What's left of this country when it's over will be an awful, awful mess, and will take an awful long time to clear up.
Boris Johnson is just a convenient idiot. [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 7:32]
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Crikey O'Reilly, I had no idea I was being that serious 
Going to take me an hour or two to get my head round that & your & Dan's following posts. What a shocking state of affairs. Do you see any remedy (or counter-active or palliative) measures?
If I wasn't depressed by UK politics before ... [Post edited 11 Sep 2020 11:17]
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| Democray kind of sucks on 11:43 - Sep 11 with 466 views | Dyland |
| Democray kind of sucks on 22:50 - Sep 10 by werringtonblue |
Unfortunately you and I don't like what the outcome of the free vote is delivering right now. But think carefully before saying democracy sucks.
This lot can be voted out next time if the democratic majority decides. Then democracy won't suck.....
if we collectively vote them in again, then it's not democracy that sucks, but the intelligence of the electorate that will be to blame or a proper endorsement ..... unless of course in the next 4 years they deliver incredible results. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 22:55]
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Nothing to do with the outcome of the vote. Everything to do with the behavioiur of the government. My point is that in a mob rule or other scenario they'd literally be beaten up. And yeh my point is not really literal, I'm being flippant.
"... then it's not democracy that sucks, but the intelligence of the electorate..."
That is why democracy sucks ;) | |
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| Democray kind of sucks on 11:47 - Sep 11 with 460 views | Dyland |
| Democray kind of sucks on 22:54 - Sep 10 by giant_stow |
Wise cheery words Dylan you manic. [Post edited 10 Sep 2020 22:55]
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As for you you yohurt eating yurt dwelling mouldy old sod, well, just sod off x | |
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