| Hurst: a retrospective view 22:02 - Dec 29 with 5365 views | Lowie |
Don't get me wrong. I don't think he was the right man for us, but I do think he managed to grasp some of the long standing problems the club has had for the best part of 10 + years.
Hurst knew the senior pros lacked ambition, fight and work ethic. I'm not for one minute suggesting he had the perfect remedy, but Mick's team was full of journeymen. He signed hungry, (fairly) young players from the lower leagues. Garner and Waghorn didn't want to be here. He was brave, but it went spectacularly wrong.
He also identified there was/is a massive problem with fitness at the club (look at our injury list for the past 10 years) Again, not necessarily with the right solution, but he spotted it and acted on it in training.
Also, perhaps some of our 'old lags' (as described in another post) in the dressing room needed a metaphorical kick up the backside. It was all too comfortable with zero expectations. He wasn't prepared to tolerate that, and took them on. They're (mostly) all still here, and still performing at a mediocre level.
I'd be genuinely interested to see where we'd be with Hurst now. How much worse (really) would things be...we were relegated with zero fight, and are still languishing in the 3rd tier outside the play-off places two seasons later.
This is the worst coached Ipswich side since the 1950s, to pretend otherwise is garbage. They are awful. We've got some decent players, but they are not a decent team.
Lambert is the worst manager we've ever had. It is a miracle he's still here. [Post edited 29 Dec 2020 22:04]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:28 - Dec 30 with 681 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:13 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Glad you agree that we needed a miracle worker in the Mick mould to keep us up.
You seem really keen to hugely undersell just what a disaster Hurst was in his few months in charge. He sold our best players and replaced them with ones that simply weren't good enough. He destroyed morale and managed to turn Bart from the best keeper in the league to a total liability. We were in a terrible state. He inherited a solid platform as well, a squad with a decent blend of youth and experience that had just finished 12th. To come in and turn that into the worst side in the league within three months is more than just "one bad window" and trying to add some quality to the squad in January when we were already as good as relegated was never going to be an easy fix.
Don't get me wrong, Lambert is bloody awful. But Hurst totally destroyed us in less than 4 months and Lambert's complete failure to make us any better subsequently is not quite as bad as Hurst ruining us in the first place. |
Mick McCarthy was a good manager, but "miracle worker" is a significant exaggeration.
I think the idea that Hurst was this uniquely destructive manager from whom we could never expect to recover is a big part of why we're still so rubbish. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:31 - Dec 30 with 668 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:28 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Mick McCarthy was a good manager, but "miracle worker" is a significant exaggeration.
I think the idea that Hurst was this uniquely destructive manager from whom we could never expect to recover is a big part of why we're still so rubbish. |
Who has said we could never expect to recover? If you can't see how much damage he did during his short tenure - and the length of that tenure under the famously lenient ME should give you a big clue - then I don't know what more can be said. He gutted a perfectly capable Championship squad and turned it into dross in just a few months. That's staggeringly bad. Lambert has had a shocker trying to rebuild of course, nobody would argue otherwise, but I can't fathom how someone can't see why Hurst is well in the discussion for being our worst ever manager given what a disaster he was. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:02 - Dec 30 with 654 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:28 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Mick McCarthy was a good manager, but "miracle worker" is a significant exaggeration.
I think the idea that Hurst was this uniquely destructive manager from whom we could never expect to recover is a big part of why we're still so rubbish. |
Mick McCarthy worked a minor miracle to keep us up the season he arrived. It is that sort of job that was needed when Lambert arrived. I make it 7 games that we dropped 16 points from winning positions under Lambert. We would have needed to be resilient enough to have held on to at least 11 of those (including a 2nd minute lead to Millwall where they went 3-1 up in a 16 minute spell) to overhaul Millwall who had 25 goals better goal difference alongside their 13 higher points tally. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:05 - Dec 30 with 646 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 18:31 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Who has said we could never expect to recover? If you can't see how much damage he did during his short tenure - and the length of that tenure under the famously lenient ME should give you a big clue - then I don't know what more can be said. He gutted a perfectly capable Championship squad and turned it into dross in just a few months. That's staggeringly bad. Lambert has had a shocker trying to rebuild of course, nobody would argue otherwise, but I can't fathom how someone can't see why Hurst is well in the discussion for being our worst ever manager given what a disaster he was. |
"Gutted the squad" is a bit dramatic. He sold 3 players, 2 of whom were agitating for a move. If that was enough to make us unsalvageable then how "perfectly capable" can the squad have been? | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:12 - Dec 30 with 632 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:05 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
"Gutted the squad" is a bit dramatic. He sold 3 players, 2 of whom were agitating for a move. If that was enough to make us unsalvageable then how "perfectly capable" can the squad have been? |
The squad that ended 2017/18 WAS perfectly capable but the squad that started 2018/19 was much less so largely because of Hurst and his dealings. |  | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:17 - Dec 30 with 626 views | FoghornGleghorn |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:05 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
"Gutted the squad" is a bit dramatic. He sold 3 players, 2 of whom were agitating for a move. If that was enough to make us unsalvageable then how "perfectly capable" can the squad have been? |
I think you might be rather underestimating the effect. He sold two strikers who had scored a combined 26 the previous season, who wanted out *because of him*. At the same time, off went McG. All of our front line - apart from Sears, who he promptly fell out with - were gone, to be replaced by Harrison and Jackson who'd never played Championship, scored five between them, and cost over £2m. "Gutted the squad", maybe not..."ripped all of its teeth out" sound any better? | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:18 - Dec 30 with 625 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:05 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
"Gutted the squad" is a bit dramatic. He sold 3 players, 2 of whom were agitating for a move. If that was enough to make us unsalvageable then how "perfectly capable" can the squad have been? |
Players who left (OK some were not necessarily Hurst's decision):
Iorfa, Celina, Connolly, Carter-Vickers (all loans)
Webster, Waghorn, McGoldrick, Garner, Hyam, Gleeson, Bru, Carayol.
5 of these players featured in the most starts the previous season and McGoldrick was just outside that group.
He also chose to loan out Drinan, Emmanuel, Morris, Roberts and Woolfenden. Couple that with destroying the confidence of the previous 3-times player of the season, whatever actually happened there.
It was the quality that he replaced them with that decimated the squad. I think some overplay it but it was more than 3 players.
EDIT: Effectively he either lost or sold half of the first team and a significant number of squad players and replaced them exclusively with players who had no experience above League 1 (and in some cases not even at that level): Edun, Chalobah, Donacien, Jackson. (Aside from Matthew Pennington and at the last minute an unfit loan of Jonathan Walters who did suggest he could have made the difference.) [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 19:29]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:36 - Dec 30 with 596 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:05 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
"Gutted the squad" is a bit dramatic. He sold 3 players, 2 of whom were agitating for a move. If that was enough to make us unsalvageable then how "perfectly capable" can the squad have been? |
The squad was perfectly capable, as evidenced by us finishing 12th. It was then terrible once Hurst had worked his magic, as evidenced by us being rooted to the bottom of the table and looking absolutely hopeless. He let key players leave and replaced them with players that weren't remotely good enough. I'm really not sure what you're struggling with on this one, it's really obvious why many consider Hurst to be our worst ever manager, he did a bloody terrible job and transformed an established Championship side into one destined for relegation almost overnight. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:50 - Dec 30 with 590 views | tractordownsouth |
A village idiot could have identified our fitness problems, and he alienated the senior players within 5 minutes of walking through the door. The fact his successor is terrible doesn't make him any less terrible. |  |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 20:52 - Dec 30 with 562 views | jayessess |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:18 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Players who left (OK some were not necessarily Hurst's decision):
Iorfa, Celina, Connolly, Carter-Vickers (all loans)
Webster, Waghorn, McGoldrick, Garner, Hyam, Gleeson, Bru, Carayol.
5 of these players featured in the most starts the previous season and McGoldrick was just outside that group.
He also chose to loan out Drinan, Emmanuel, Morris, Roberts and Woolfenden. Couple that with destroying the confidence of the previous 3-times player of the season, whatever actually happened there.
It was the quality that he replaced them with that decimated the squad. I think some overplay it but it was more than 3 players.
EDIT: Effectively he either lost or sold half of the first team and a significant number of squad players and replaced them exclusively with players who had no experience above League 1 (and in some cases not even at that level): Edun, Chalobah, Donacien, Jackson. (Aside from Matthew Pennington and at the last minute an unfit loan of Jonathan Walters who did suggest he could have made the difference.) [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 19:29]
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Much of that doesn't really belong in Hurst's personal debit column though, does it? [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 20:55]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 21:25 - Dec 30 with 542 views | Herbivore |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 20:52 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Much of that doesn't really belong in Hurst's personal debit column though, does it? [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 20:55]
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Apart from all of the signings, all of the loan decisions, upsetting the senior pros, ruining Bart, and letting Webster, Waghorn and Garner leave. You're right, he's barely culpable. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:26]
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 21:27 - Dec 30 with 536 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 20:52 - Dec 30 by jayessess |
Much of that doesn't really belong in Hurst's personal debit column though, does it? [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 20:55]
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He replaced the players that left with far worse.
How much no one was able to do any better is a moot point but it was his choice to bring in exclusively inexperienced younger players and he was widely criticised for it on here at the time. I will hold my hands up - I thought it was refreshing and could bring improvement. However, I was not responsible for assessing those players' abilities. It is clear Hurst judged them badly wrong. He was then incapable of managing the players who were already here too.
How many of Hurst's signings appear to be better than a mid-table League 1 player right now? Edwards. Possibly Jackson if played alongside Norwood. That must be it. He spent a lot of money on Nolan, Nsiala, Donacien and Harrison. He also brought the worst quintet of loan signings into the club ever. All of them together provided less than Celina did on his own from the previous season. You could argue he was unlucky with Walters but that was a desperate late attempt to correct the mess he had created. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 21:28 - Dec 30 with 531 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 21:25 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
Apart from all of the signings, all of the loan decisions, upsetting the senior pros, ruining Bart, and letting Webster, Waghorn and Garner leave. You're right, he's barely culpable. [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:26]
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Summed up rather better and more succinctly than me. | |
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| Hurst: a retrospective view on 21:32 - Dec 30 with 526 views | PJH |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 19:18 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Players who left (OK some were not necessarily Hurst's decision):
Iorfa, Celina, Connolly, Carter-Vickers (all loans)
Webster, Waghorn, McGoldrick, Garner, Hyam, Gleeson, Bru, Carayol.
5 of these players featured in the most starts the previous season and McGoldrick was just outside that group.
He also chose to loan out Drinan, Emmanuel, Morris, Roberts and Woolfenden. Couple that with destroying the confidence of the previous 3-times player of the season, whatever actually happened there.
It was the quality that he replaced them with that decimated the squad. I think some overplay it but it was more than 3 players.
EDIT: Effectively he either lost or sold half of the first team and a significant number of squad players and replaced them exclusively with players who had no experience above League 1 (and in some cases not even at that level): Edun, Chalobah, Donacien, Jackson. (Aside from Matthew Pennington and at the last minute an unfit loan of Jonathan Walters who did suggest he could have made the difference.) [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 19:29]
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Although if stories at the time are to believed Walters was brought in by ME rather than Hurst so if that is true then even something that could have been a plus was despite Hurst and not because of him. | | | |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 11:20 - Dec 31 with 434 views | patrickswell |
| Hurst: a retrospective view on 10:39 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
That's rather a misrepresentation of what Bart said. He suggested the players didn't really believe they could stay up at that point, a competent new manager might have changed that belief but sadly we got Lambert. The idea that the likes of Chambers and Skuse weren't trying is somewhat ridiculous. |
I remember Bart saying that Lambert arrived and tried to gee the players up that they could beat relegation. However, Bart’s attitude was that there wasn’t enough attacking quality left to score the goals which could win games.
Lambert’s inability to reverse the demoralised slump that our squad seems to have been in since Hurst’s arrival has been his biggest failing. The mentality at this club is terrible, especially when it comes to results in “big” games. |  | | |
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