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Are we still supposed to listen to these Very Real Concerns and be the bigger people by reaching across the aisle to unify?
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
Serious answers only please on 07:25 - Jan 7 by Steve_M
Indeed. Most of those yesterday have very little that should be listened to but that does not go for everyone who voted Trump. Given the widespread disinformation pumped out by Fox News and even worse places on Facebook then there must be people whose minds can be changed - not trying is a route solely to further polarisation.
Pretty much this and what others have said
I don’t believe anyone has actually been saying that extreme racist loons should be listened to anyway. As opposed to the absolutely massive middle ground of ‘normal’ people
Humans are complex creatures. Lots of people (probably all) that are inherently decent will hold blind spots in some areas, be it through ignorance, stupidity or just their own experiences. In much the same way that people who are essentially horrible abusive c*nts day in day out to people can hold the right views on lots of subjects
70m+ people that voted for Trump in the US, or 17m-odd for Brexit in the UK aren’t all racist loons. Continuing to just label anyone and everyone who says anything remotely outside of the ‘right’ viewpoint as thick racist simpletons helps nobody, and only serves to push more and more people into extreme positions
Highlighting crass stupidity since sometime around 2010
Serious answers only please on 10:52 - Jan 7 by Guthrum
They're not looking for facts, but for solutions to the things which are making them hurt - economic pressure, social dislocation, feelings of disenfranchisement.
The biggest problem with a facts-based, rational approach is that you can't offer those solutions. Mostly because they are very difficult (or impossible), expensive and require a lot of time/work. Someone whose best hope, since the mines closed, is a minimum wage job in a warehouse shipping nice stuff for the well-off understandably does not have the resources to put in* and lacks patience.
It is possible to present things as a project, to get these people on board and involved. But you have to be seen to be delivering, rather than mouthing platitudes and keep on letting the divides increase. Also, you face stiff competition from manipulators seeking to vampirically suck their energy for their own ends, promising things they have no intention of making good on.
* To move location or for self-improvement.
Excellent post.
I think the bit about a project and getting people on board is particularly important. I think a lot of these people (not the full-on nazis) just want a "tribe" and a sense of belonging, and the politics comes second to that.
We mock the MAGA hats but I think they were actually really important, in a similar way to football colours etc, in making people feel part of something.
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Serious answers only please on 12:12 - Jan 7 with 1278 views
Serious answers only please on 11:44 - Jan 7 by CrayonKing
Excellent post.
I think the bit about a project and getting people on board is particularly important. I think a lot of these people (not the full-on nazis) just want a "tribe" and a sense of belonging, and the politics comes second to that.
We mock the MAGA hats but I think they were actually really important, in a similar way to football colours etc, in making people feel part of something.
Indeed. From what I've seen, they often only have the haziest idea about the politics anyway (certainly in practical terms). It's all about "us" versus "them", "owning the libs" and chest-beating for tribal prestige.
Was reading something in a book the other day about the BNPs rise in Stoke on Trent, and how the main parties had to tie a loose coalition together to stop them getting a majority on council.
They tried lots to win the people back round, but just slating the BNP didn't work, and telling people they were racist and wrong didn't - they won by good governance, by showing them up to be lazy and bad representatives, highlighting lack of work, lack of meetings attended etc.
It's difficult when people become zealots, sometimes people are just lost - none of those lot last night will ever vote Democrat - but the left can push people on the right to the far right
I don’t believe anyone has actually been saying that extreme racist loons should be listened to anyway. As opposed to the absolutely massive middle ground of ‘normal’ people
Humans are complex creatures. Lots of people (probably all) that are inherently decent will hold blind spots in some areas, be it through ignorance, stupidity or just their own experiences. In much the same way that people who are essentially horrible abusive c*nts day in day out to people can hold the right views on lots of subjects
70m+ people that voted for Trump in the US, or 17m-odd for Brexit in the UK aren’t all racist loons. Continuing to just label anyone and everyone who says anything remotely outside of the ‘right’ viewpoint as thick racist simpletons helps nobody, and only serves to push more and more people into extreme positions
Yes, not treating, say, Trump voters as a single homogeneous mass is a good start.
Serious answers only please on 22:50 - Jan 6 by Nthsuffolkblue
This is the problem, too many are so entrenched and will not listen. I agree that misinformation should be challenged on social media platforms too. It is good that Twitter has been prepared to do this to the President too.
Ultimately, there is a careful balance between freedom of speech and preventing unacceptable things.
What specifically have you in mind?
Your first sentence is spot on. While there are still those who see themselves as victims and won't accept any facts other than the ones that support their own world view then it is going to be difficult. This is a video from the Washington Post of a summary from the right-wing media - Fox, OAN. It's only 2:30 mins but shows the way ahead isn't easy.
Don't believe a word I say. I'm only kidding. Or am I?
Serious answers only please on 14:32 - Jan 7 by itfcjoe
Was reading something in a book the other day about the BNPs rise in Stoke on Trent, and how the main parties had to tie a loose coalition together to stop them getting a majority on council.
They tried lots to win the people back round, but just slating the BNP didn't work, and telling people they were racist and wrong didn't - they won by good governance, by showing them up to be lazy and bad representatives, highlighting lack of work, lack of meetings attended etc.
It's difficult when people become zealots, sometimes people are just lost - none of those lot last night will ever vote Democrat - but the left can push people on the right to the far right
But why is it always up to us to be the nice ones? Let's take the BNP for example, these are people who have abhorrent views and everyone else has to bend over backwards to be nice to them and their supporters?
I'm just absolutely done with it. It's getting worse and no amount of "I understand your concerns but..." helps.
Serious answers only please on 14:52 - Jan 7 by DanTheMan
But why is it always up to us to be the nice ones? Let's take the BNP for example, these are people who have abhorrent views and everyone else has to bend over backwards to be nice to them and their supporters?
I'm just absolutely done with it. It's getting worse and no amount of "I understand your concerns but..." helps.
You don't have to be nice to the BNP, those actively looking to stand for them and what they represent are beyond the pail. But you do have to ensure that their message isn't allowed to go unfettered and unfiltered out there - it needs to be challenged, and they need to be shown up.
But if people agree with parts of what they are saying, and turn a blind eye to other parts then they can't just be written off - these people have been beaten in the past by exposing them for what they are, and how they fail in every part of what they should be doing.
Serious answers only please on 14:59 - Jan 7 by itfcjoe
You don't have to be nice to the BNP, those actively looking to stand for them and what they represent are beyond the pail. But you do have to ensure that their message isn't allowed to go unfettered and unfiltered out there - it needs to be challenged, and they need to be shown up.
But if people agree with parts of what they are saying, and turn a blind eye to other parts then they can't just be written off - these people have been beaten in the past by exposing them for what they are, and how they fail in every part of what they should be doing.
Maybe for me it's just that the "turning a blind eye" bit is as good as supporting them.
If them getting criticised for doing so pushes you further into it then for me you already believed it to begin with. You just weren't comfortable saying so. I very much doubt someone getting called racist turned them into an actual racist when they weren't before for example.
Serious answers only please on 15:02 - Jan 7 by DanTheMan
Maybe for me it's just that the "turning a blind eye" bit is as good as supporting them.
If them getting criticised for doing so pushes you further into it then for me you already believed it to begin with. You just weren't comfortable saying so. I very much doubt someone getting called racist turned them into an actual racist when they weren't before for example.
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 15:09]
Maybe it's a case of being naive to it, rather than turning a deliberate blind eye - who knows. But I do find that decent people end up following those very far from similar viewpoints, and they aren't lost causes
Serious answers only please on 16:37 - Jan 7 by ElderGrizzly
Schumer has just upped the game significantly
That's mah senator!
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
I think so, yes. However, it does infuriate me that 4 years ago Clinton supporters were denounced as sneering, out of touch elitists because they didn't support the winning candidate, yet in a few days I'm sure the same people will be telling us that Trump's defeat means that his supporters' views should be respected.
I do think these answers largely stem from real concerns though. I'd wager people who get swept up by these Trump/Farage movements don't start off as racists, they're just attracted to different arguments about why their pay is low, they can't see their GP or get on the housing ladder. While most politicians' responses to those issues would be to increase the minimum wage/improve employment security, put more money into the NHS and increase the social housing stock, right-wing demagogues will blame all 3 issues on foreigners. For some, that's a much easier and more attractive line to take than the more complex solutions offered up by the left and centre.
Although it's clear that Trump and Farage are racist and exploit this sentiment in their campaign methods, they do this because it helps them achieve alternative aims. Most people aren't going to accept their vision of a deregulated utopia, so they have to create distraction methods to do it. UKIP were going nowhere for 15 years just banging on about the EU, but until they exploited immigration and linked it to class issues, they managed to bring more people onside and achieve the Brexit vote - something which was delivered by voters whose' economic views couldn't be further from Farage's. The US is a little more complex because they're further to the right, but I highly doubt Trump would've won ex-Democrats solely on a ticket of de-regulation - he had to offer a scapegoat, which he has done with terrifying success.
Of course, a sizeable chunk will hold racist views, but I'd like to think the vast majority are decent folks who have been exploited. My answer to it is to criticise the politicians but avoid name calling towards their supporters - sadly we won't win these people back by hurling insults back. That alone won't cause voters to abandon Trumpism, but it's a start. When they go low, you go high" springs to mind. The real blame lays with the Tory/GOP enablers who knew better but supported these demagogues for their own gain.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
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