| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 07:58 - Jan 9 with 1937 views | gordon |
Here's an informative twitter thread on the subject. It's complicated is the answer, unfortunately.
|  | |  |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:16 - Jan 9 with 1874 views | Meadowlark |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 07:58 - Jan 9 by gordon |
Here's an informative twitter thread on the subject. It's complicated is the answer, unfortunately.
|
An informative thread from a farmer justifying why his profits are more important than the natural world. Of course rich farmers and agrochemical companies want to use these poisons.
How many insects do you see now, compared to when you were a child? How can killing pollinators be a good thing? |  | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:40 - Jan 9 with 1847 views | jonbull88 |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:16 - Jan 9 by Meadowlark |
An informative thread from a farmer justifying why his profits are more important than the natural world. Of course rich farmers and agrochemical companies want to use these poisons.
How many insects do you see now, compared to when you were a child? How can killing pollinators be a good thing? |
What people don’t know is that neonicotinoids have been used as a seed treatment in a range of crops. Sugar beet is one of the main crops, oil seed rape is another, widely grown in the uk.
On our family farm we grow roughly 12000t of sugar beet per year, this year our yields thanks to yellow virus are down 35%. The argument from us farmers is that the seed treatment alternative atm is to continually spray the crop. We sprayed our beet about 8 times last year, compared to 2 or 3 previously. Each time you drive through a crop you kill insects, far more than any seed treatment does.
It is similar with oil seed rape, without neonicotinoids, the crop becomes susceptible to a pest called flee beetle. This pest eats the crop as it is growing, they then leave eggs in the growing crop and the larvae have been know to eat crops from the inside out later on in the growing year. We have known farmers lose crops weeks prior to harvest because of this. Just like sugar beet the only way of semi controlling this pest is to continually spray, some spray up to 10 times for this.
Bees are very important part of the farm, and like the man on the Twitter feed we do everything we can to protect them (we have 3 hives on our farm), however it has been said by many scientists that the loss of crops like oil seed rape will actually do more damage as the crops tend to get replaced by wheat or barley, all of which aren’t as beneficial for bees.
The other argument from us is that we have had them banned, however many other countries, (including many in the European Union) are still able to farm with them. As our crops are failing we then import products from these countries. We were pushing for a ban on importing products from other countries that use the neonicotinoids chemical to make it fair on our agricultural industry.
Overall speaking from the side of the fence that uses them, they are needed as the alternatives are either less environmentally friendly or just not there yet. The loss of bees and other insects can also be blamed on the changing climate, something I have noticed in my years on the farm. The weather patterns are changing and not for the better! |  | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:43 - Jan 9 with 1840 views | DanTheMan |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:40 - Jan 9 by jonbull88 |
What people don’t know is that neonicotinoids have been used as a seed treatment in a range of crops. Sugar beet is one of the main crops, oil seed rape is another, widely grown in the uk.
On our family farm we grow roughly 12000t of sugar beet per year, this year our yields thanks to yellow virus are down 35%. The argument from us farmers is that the seed treatment alternative atm is to continually spray the crop. We sprayed our beet about 8 times last year, compared to 2 or 3 previously. Each time you drive through a crop you kill insects, far more than any seed treatment does.
It is similar with oil seed rape, without neonicotinoids, the crop becomes susceptible to a pest called flee beetle. This pest eats the crop as it is growing, they then leave eggs in the growing crop and the larvae have been know to eat crops from the inside out later on in the growing year. We have known farmers lose crops weeks prior to harvest because of this. Just like sugar beet the only way of semi controlling this pest is to continually spray, some spray up to 10 times for this.
Bees are very important part of the farm, and like the man on the Twitter feed we do everything we can to protect them (we have 3 hives on our farm), however it has been said by many scientists that the loss of crops like oil seed rape will actually do more damage as the crops tend to get replaced by wheat or barley, all of which aren’t as beneficial for bees.
The other argument from us is that we have had them banned, however many other countries, (including many in the European Union) are still able to farm with them. As our crops are failing we then import products from these countries. We were pushing for a ban on importing products from other countries that use the neonicotinoids chemical to make it fair on our agricultural industry.
Overall speaking from the side of the fence that uses them, they are needed as the alternatives are either less environmentally friendly or just not there yet. The loss of bees and other insects can also be blamed on the changing climate, something I have noticed in my years on the farm. The weather patterns are changing and not for the better! |
Thanks for the response to this.
I saw the original petition to the Government some time ago (the one they were asked not to share on social media) and thought it sounded really bad, like we were going to start immediately going back on the previous pledges not to go backwards on environmental standards but it seems there is more to it. |  |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:46 - Jan 9 with 1825 views | Jambo |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:16 - Jan 9 by Meadowlark |
An informative thread from a farmer justifying why his profits are more important than the natural world. Of course rich farmers and agrochemical companies want to use these poisons.
How many insects do you see now, compared to when you were a child? How can killing pollinators be a good thing? |
I wasn’t going to reply but felt compelled to.
An insightful thread is posted and you immediately just went straight for a tired cliche.
I can assure you that Tom is not rich farmer.
Lifting the ban on neonicotinoids is like having your arms untied. Frankly, we couldn’t grow Sugar Beet without it.
If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind.
Now, you might say so what - the ban also affected oilseed rape too - the area of OSR grown last year was the smallest since the 70’s , imagine the impact of thousands of acres of flowering plants diminishing on pollinators. Insects thrive on it.
UK agriculture is at the forefront of trying more sustainable farming practices, field margins, cover crops , skylark patches etc are all ways that we are working to address the bad practices that were developed after WW2 when the nation needed to be fed.
How many insects did you count as a child? And don’t forget...creme eggs were bigger too. |  | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:49 - Jan 9 with 1813 views | NthQldITFC |
Simplistic rhetorical question alert (I don't know enough to have great certainty in my opinion on this), but...
Do we keep making excuses for dangerous 'short-term solutions' on the basis of economic hardships for some, until everything is dead? [Post edited 9 Jan 2021 9:49]
|  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 10:15 - Jan 9 with 1759 views | gordon |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:49 - Jan 9 by NthQldITFC |
Simplistic rhetorical question alert (I don't know enough to have great certainty in my opinion on this), but...
Do we keep making excuses for dangerous 'short-term solutions' on the basis of economic hardships for some, until everything is dead? [Post edited 9 Jan 2021 9:49]
|
Tom Clarke has lots of his land in HLS, which is literally the tool that society has designed to deliver nature-friendly farming.
For me the point is more that on the one hand, we allow supermarkets to drive down prices to the extent that for farming to be economic it requires high levels of efficiency and large-scale production, while on the other hand we also blame farmers for the fact that small-scale, nature-friendly farming is largely a thing of the past, certainly in the lowlands.
And then you can get massive public support for this sort of ban which is largely performative and probably won't substantively improve wildlife outcomes, but will make us as consumers feel better. | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 10:19 - Jan 9 with 1744 views | gordon |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:40 - Jan 9 by jonbull88 |
What people don’t know is that neonicotinoids have been used as a seed treatment in a range of crops. Sugar beet is one of the main crops, oil seed rape is another, widely grown in the uk.
On our family farm we grow roughly 12000t of sugar beet per year, this year our yields thanks to yellow virus are down 35%. The argument from us farmers is that the seed treatment alternative atm is to continually spray the crop. We sprayed our beet about 8 times last year, compared to 2 or 3 previously. Each time you drive through a crop you kill insects, far more than any seed treatment does.
It is similar with oil seed rape, without neonicotinoids, the crop becomes susceptible to a pest called flee beetle. This pest eats the crop as it is growing, they then leave eggs in the growing crop and the larvae have been know to eat crops from the inside out later on in the growing year. We have known farmers lose crops weeks prior to harvest because of this. Just like sugar beet the only way of semi controlling this pest is to continually spray, some spray up to 10 times for this.
Bees are very important part of the farm, and like the man on the Twitter feed we do everything we can to protect them (we have 3 hives on our farm), however it has been said by many scientists that the loss of crops like oil seed rape will actually do more damage as the crops tend to get replaced by wheat or barley, all of which aren’t as beneficial for bees.
The other argument from us is that we have had them banned, however many other countries, (including many in the European Union) are still able to farm with them. As our crops are failing we then import products from these countries. We were pushing for a ban on importing products from other countries that use the neonicotinoids chemical to make it fair on our agricultural industry.
Overall speaking from the side of the fence that uses them, they are needed as the alternatives are either less environmentally friendly or just not there yet. The loss of bees and other insects can also be blamed on the changing climate, something I have noticed in my years on the farm. The weather patterns are changing and not for the better! |
If those are Honey Bee hives then that won't be helping native pollinators, because Honey Bees aren't native to UK and will be in competition for resources with native pollinators in some situations. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 10:22 - Jan 9 with 1736 views | gordon |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:46 - Jan 9 by Jambo |
I wasn’t going to reply but felt compelled to.
An insightful thread is posted and you immediately just went straight for a tired cliche.
I can assure you that Tom is not rich farmer.
Lifting the ban on neonicotinoids is like having your arms untied. Frankly, we couldn’t grow Sugar Beet without it.
If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind.
Now, you might say so what - the ban also affected oilseed rape too - the area of OSR grown last year was the smallest since the 70’s , imagine the impact of thousands of acres of flowering plants diminishing on pollinators. Insects thrive on it.
UK agriculture is at the forefront of trying more sustainable farming practices, field margins, cover crops , skylark patches etc are all ways that we are working to address the bad practices that were developed after WW2 when the nation needed to be fed.
How many insects did you count as a child? And don’t forget...creme eggs were bigger too. |
"If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind."
I struggle a bit with this argument. If you applied this logic to the regulation of child labour, you might say:
"we should turn a blind eye to working conditions in Leicester's illegal garment sweat shops, because if we don't the garments will just be made in Bangladesh where conditions are worse." | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 11:36 - Jan 9 with 1685 views | Meadowlark |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:46 - Jan 9 by Jambo |
I wasn’t going to reply but felt compelled to.
An insightful thread is posted and you immediately just went straight for a tired cliche.
I can assure you that Tom is not rich farmer.
Lifting the ban on neonicotinoids is like having your arms untied. Frankly, we couldn’t grow Sugar Beet without it.
If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind.
Now, you might say so what - the ban also affected oilseed rape too - the area of OSR grown last year was the smallest since the 70’s , imagine the impact of thousands of acres of flowering plants diminishing on pollinators. Insects thrive on it.
UK agriculture is at the forefront of trying more sustainable farming practices, field margins, cover crops , skylark patches etc are all ways that we are working to address the bad practices that were developed after WW2 when the nation needed to be fed.
How many insects did you count as a child? And don’t forget...creme eggs were bigger too. |
But it's not a tired cliche.
Do these chemicals kill pollinators? Yes.
Are they a cheap option for farmers who want to increase profits? Yes.
I understand that farmers want to keep profits high, and I understand that they have a better understanding of what effects these chemicals might have in terms of crop production, but just like banning coal power stations, and petrol cars we have to stop thinking of profits ahead of the environment.
As a youngster, every time we went out in the car in the summer the windscreen would be covered with insects. Later on, my motorcycle visor would be plastered with them.
Every time you opened the door or switched on an outside light in the evening swarms of moths would congregate. Outside lamps were surrounded by a cloud of insects.
Your creme egg analogy implies that it is inevitable that the insect population will continue to decrease, and that this is a good thing. Surely not? | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 11:58 - Jan 9 with 1662 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
A very interesting debate.
One thing I have noticed recently is a lot more birds of prey (especially buzzards which I don't recall ever seeing round here until the last few years). This is a sign of a healthy ecosystem.
It would be a very blinkered farmer who wanted to do something that made a short term profit without regard to the environment (and that is not to say they don't exist). I would love to spend time looking at quality resources on both sides of this debate but it does look rather like this is one of those situation where there should be a sensible compromise. Allowing for pre-treatment of seed appears to be completely different from spraying them. Is that a fair summary? |  |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 12:56 - Jan 9 with 1617 views | Radlett_blue |
Another thing I've notice this year is far more worm casts etc on golf courses. I'm told this is because the pesticides used aren't banned, just that the manufacturers don't find it worth going through the complex process of proving that they're not generally harmful.
While I'm sure worms are an important part of the ecosystem, I was wondering if anyone knew if this was why the casts were more in evidence. |  |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 13:40 - Jan 9 with 1575 views | stantheman |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 10:15 - Jan 9 by gordon |
Tom Clarke has lots of his land in HLS, which is literally the tool that society has designed to deliver nature-friendly farming.
For me the point is more that on the one hand, we allow supermarkets to drive down prices to the extent that for farming to be economic it requires high levels of efficiency and large-scale production, while on the other hand we also blame farmers for the fact that small-scale, nature-friendly farming is largely a thing of the past, certainly in the lowlands.
And then you can get massive public support for this sort of ban which is largely performative and probably won't substantively improve wildlife outcomes, but will make us as consumers feel better. |
In my old profession in the foundry industry nearly all the companies I worked in were priced out by costs to upgrade equipment to make them compatible with new environmental regulations. So what happened is they closed the factories down and outsourced manufacturing to India and China who generally have no consideration to environmental or H&S regs etc. The offshoot of this is that quality of product also suffered and subsequently the company lost customers and went under anyway. To keep driving costs down to keep everyone happy all you do is export the problems to other countries who do not have the same values as you. |  | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 13:42 - Jan 9 with 1570 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 12:56 - Jan 9 by Radlett_blue |
Another thing I've notice this year is far more worm casts etc on golf courses. I'm told this is because the pesticides used aren't banned, just that the manufacturers don't find it worth going through the complex process of proving that they're not generally harmful.
While I'm sure worms are an important part of the ecosystem, I was wondering if anyone knew if this was why the casts were more in evidence. |
I would imagine a lot of rain is a major part of the reason. | |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 13:51 - Jan 9 with 1551 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:40 - Jan 9 by jonbull88 |
What people don’t know is that neonicotinoids have been used as a seed treatment in a range of crops. Sugar beet is one of the main crops, oil seed rape is another, widely grown in the uk.
On our family farm we grow roughly 12000t of sugar beet per year, this year our yields thanks to yellow virus are down 35%. The argument from us farmers is that the seed treatment alternative atm is to continually spray the crop. We sprayed our beet about 8 times last year, compared to 2 or 3 previously. Each time you drive through a crop you kill insects, far more than any seed treatment does.
It is similar with oil seed rape, without neonicotinoids, the crop becomes susceptible to a pest called flee beetle. This pest eats the crop as it is growing, they then leave eggs in the growing crop and the larvae have been know to eat crops from the inside out later on in the growing year. We have known farmers lose crops weeks prior to harvest because of this. Just like sugar beet the only way of semi controlling this pest is to continually spray, some spray up to 10 times for this.
Bees are very important part of the farm, and like the man on the Twitter feed we do everything we can to protect them (we have 3 hives on our farm), however it has been said by many scientists that the loss of crops like oil seed rape will actually do more damage as the crops tend to get replaced by wheat or barley, all of which aren’t as beneficial for bees.
The other argument from us is that we have had them banned, however many other countries, (including many in the European Union) are still able to farm with them. As our crops are failing we then import products from these countries. We were pushing for a ban on importing products from other countries that use the neonicotinoids chemical to make it fair on our agricultural industry.
Overall speaking from the side of the fence that uses them, they are needed as the alternatives are either less environmentally friendly or just not there yet. The loss of bees and other insects can also be blamed on the changing climate, something I have noticed in my years on the farm. The weather patterns are changing and not for the better! |
Weren't your poor yields this year more down to the appalling germination and early growth rates due to an exceptionally dry Spring hence the ridiculously small beet size this year?
Also isn't it true that intensive growing methods encourage the proliferation of certain insect infestations? |  |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 15:05 - Jan 9 with 1487 views | stonojnr |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:46 - Jan 9 by Jambo |
I wasn’t going to reply but felt compelled to.
An insightful thread is posted and you immediately just went straight for a tired cliche.
I can assure you that Tom is not rich farmer.
Lifting the ban on neonicotinoids is like having your arms untied. Frankly, we couldn’t grow Sugar Beet without it.
If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind.
Now, you might say so what - the ban also affected oilseed rape too - the area of OSR grown last year was the smallest since the 70’s , imagine the impact of thousands of acres of flowering plants diminishing on pollinators. Insects thrive on it.
UK agriculture is at the forefront of trying more sustainable farming practices, field margins, cover crops , skylark patches etc are all ways that we are working to address the bad practices that were developed after WW2 when the nation needed to be fed.
How many insects did you count as a child? And don’t forget...creme eggs were bigger too. |
was that the reason for the drop in growing of oil seed rape last year then ?
Id assumed it was just some crop rotation thing, but it was really noticeable riding around Suffolk last year, I dont think I saw a single field growing any, it was just fields of barley and vegetables instead, asparagus oddly became a big crop as well. whereas previous years you couldnt not ride without passing a field of oil seed rape somewhere.
and there were plenty of days in summer I was plagued by insects on a ride, if anything the lower volumes of traffic meant there were more of them to contend with | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 19:48 - Jan 9 with 1404 views | Suffolktractor |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 13:51 - Jan 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Weren't your poor yields this year more down to the appalling germination and early growth rates due to an exceptionally dry Spring hence the ridiculously small beet size this year?
Also isn't it true that intensive growing methods encourage the proliferation of certain insect infestations? |
It was a difficult spring for beet due to the weather, but the over riding issue was the huge number of aphids that cause the disease that turns the beet leaves yellow and hammer the yields.
Neonicatiods were banned on beet in uk two years ago, in spite of this many EU countries and most the rest of the beet growing world continue to use neonicatiods.
Please bear in mind sugar beet is a biennial crop, meaning it is harvested before it flowers, therefore bees will not be present in the field as there is nothing for them to forage. | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 19:49 - Jan 9 with 1391 views | Bluefish |
If you haven't watched it yet watch the film dark waters and then look into Monsanto as well |  |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 20:54 - Jan 12 with 1242 views | Meadowlark |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:46 - Jan 9 by Jambo |
I wasn’t going to reply but felt compelled to.
An insightful thread is posted and you immediately just went straight for a tired cliche.
I can assure you that Tom is not rich farmer.
Lifting the ban on neonicotinoids is like having your arms untied. Frankly, we couldn’t grow Sugar Beet without it.
If this wasn’t permitted we would effectively be encouraging other countries to grow sugar beet instead who have a low regard for farming with nature in mind.
Now, you might say so what - the ban also affected oilseed rape too - the area of OSR grown last year was the smallest since the 70’s , imagine the impact of thousands of acres of flowering plants diminishing on pollinators. Insects thrive on it.
UK agriculture is at the forefront of trying more sustainable farming practices, field margins, cover crops , skylark patches etc are all ways that we are working to address the bad practices that were developed after WW2 when the nation needed to be fed.
How many insects did you count as a child? And don’t forget...creme eggs were bigger too. |
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/11/insect-populations-suffering | | | |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 21:01 - Jan 12 with 1234 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 15:05 - Jan 9 by stonojnr |
was that the reason for the drop in growing of oil seed rape last year then ?
Id assumed it was just some crop rotation thing, but it was really noticeable riding around Suffolk last year, I dont think I saw a single field growing any, it was just fields of barley and vegetables instead, asparagus oddly became a big crop as well. whereas previous years you couldnt not ride without passing a field of oil seed rape somewhere.
and there were plenty of days in summer I was plagued by insects on a ride, if anything the lower volumes of traffic meant there were more of them to contend with |
"you couldn't not ride without ..."
Wow! | |
| |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 09:52 - Jan 13 with 1083 views | Radlett_blue |
| This cannot be a good idea surely. on 15:05 - Jan 9 by stonojnr |
was that the reason for the drop in growing of oil seed rape last year then ?
Id assumed it was just some crop rotation thing, but it was really noticeable riding around Suffolk last year, I dont think I saw a single field growing any, it was just fields of barley and vegetables instead, asparagus oddly became a big crop as well. whereas previous years you couldnt not ride without passing a field of oil seed rape somewhere.
and there were plenty of days in summer I was plagued by insects on a ride, if anything the lower volumes of traffic meant there were more of them to contend with |
There was plenty of rape in the fields around Radlett last summer. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
