| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? 19:16 - Mar 1 with 7588 views | Darth_Koont |
Utterly shocking how useless and pointless they are as a political project. They’re even incompetent at pushing their “flagship” competence idea.
FWIW I don’t even blame Starmer. He could still be a decent, thoughtful and principled man. I blame the empty suits in the team around him who look to be stuck somewhere in the last century and are seemingly devoid of any ideas about how to tackle 2021 and beyond. |  |
| |  |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:24 - Mar 2 with 493 views | Herbivore |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:23 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Where did I claim there’s a “full scale Labour rebellion”? Especially one involving MPs or indeed any real pressure from the media?
You misrepresent my other points too. But I’ve answered them during the thread.
I know you won’t take a closer look at what’s going on and how Starmer and Labour aren’t cutting through. Or that what is cutting through is making him and Labour less and less popular. But that’s not going to happen is it? |
Don't the polls show them being more popular now than they were immediately before Starmer became leader? |  |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:25 - Mar 2 with 493 views | GaryCooper |
At least you and your compatriots shall surely have no truck with the current Labour party?
Giving the party a decent chance of future election success, the UK will be permanent tory until you all depart. |  | | |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:25 - Mar 2 with 493 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:07 - Mar 1 by Guthrum |
Proof of the pudding will be in the election - and that's still the best part of four years away.
Politics is in a sort of stasis at the moment, Covid being the only issue of real significance. Everything else has been pushed well into the background, people aren't interested. There's limited mileage in simply carping at the Government over their performance. There are few alternatives to how things are going now (vaccination, careful reopening) and it eventually just sounds like whining.
Thus there are few openings for dynamic and effective opposition.
What will be more telling is from the latter part of this year onwards, assuming we emerge from the pandemic as hoped. Other issues will begin to rear their heads, not least the economic recovery, unemployment and social/work changes. Plus Brexit effects and the potential of relationship troubles with Northern Ireland and with Scotland (assuming the SNP don't consume themselves with infighting). That is when we are going to see what kind of thing the Starmer Labour Party really is. |
Your second paragraph is spot on, attacking the government on COVID would just be met with a response of ‘doing their best, unprecedented etc’ and turned people off. Until about 2 months ago I think the strategy of only really doing so when calling for action was wise and would have worked in the long run post-COVID when the death toll was laid bare
However, the success of the vaccine rollout changes things. People have short memories and assuming that success continues and envisaging a scenario where we are getting back to normality ahead of wider Europe will see those numbers brushed under the carpet. In that respect I think Labour are a bit stuck now, although the post-COVID economic environment will provide plenty of opportunity to outline an alternative to the Tories
Think pointofblue makes a good point about the need for Labour to lead on outlining an approach here too, although I think the time for doing so is a bit further down the road as yet |  |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:27 - Mar 2 with 485 views | Herbivore |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:25 - Mar 2 by GaryCooper |
At least you and your compatriots shall surely have no truck with the current Labour party?
Giving the party a decent chance of future election success, the UK will be permanent tory until you all depart. |
That's the spirit. | |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:27 - Mar 2 with 483 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:17 - Mar 2 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Your first sentence is just a lie. Labour were consistently closing in the polling until December when the vaccination rollout began. The Tories then reopened a small gap which then grew a bit further in Jan when the levels of vaccination ramped up in comparison to other countries and the EU squabble happened, so not sure why you’re pretending otherwise |
Hold your horses. I said Starmer.
Yes, Labour were closing in the polls because that is much more the other side of the coin of the government being catastrophic until the vaccination. Johnson is now leading the way unfortunately and after Labour were useless at establishing a narrative of their own. | |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:34 - Mar 2 with 460 views | StokieBlue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:27 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Hold your horses. I said Starmer.
Yes, Labour were closing in the polls because that is much more the other side of the coin of the government being catastrophic until the vaccination. Johnson is now leading the way unfortunately and after Labour were useless at establishing a narrative of their own. |
Again though, what narrative can the opposition establish in the middle of a pandemic when a vaccine rollout is going pretty well? Can you give an example of a narrative that isn't going to be completely ignored during an ongoing pandemic.
It's just not the time to be attempting to create any grand sweeping narratives.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:38 - Mar 2 with 452 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:24 - Mar 2 by Herbivore |
Don't the polls show them being more popular now than they were immediately before Starmer became leader? |
That starting position was still reeling from Brexit (and Starmer’s own position for Labour that I happened to agree with).
That’s without even addressing how the remarkably evidence-free media attacks against Corbyn put Labour at a disadvantage, while Boris himself was also given a relatively free ride until the pandemic and reality struck.
On a side note, the irony is that the compromise of a second vote on Brexit and taking a step away from a hard Brexit at least was scuppered by the portrayal of Corbyn that the Labour right were happy not to just go along with but actively fuel. Of course, for them, Brexit was never as important as keeping the lefties out, especially a leftie who wouldn’t let them get a first-class ticket on the gravy train. | |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:44 - Mar 2 with 439 views | Herbivore |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:38 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
That starting position was still reeling from Brexit (and Starmer’s own position for Labour that I happened to agree with).
That’s without even addressing how the remarkably evidence-free media attacks against Corbyn put Labour at a disadvantage, while Boris himself was also given a relatively free ride until the pandemic and reality struck.
On a side note, the irony is that the compromise of a second vote on Brexit and taking a step away from a hard Brexit at least was scuppered by the portrayal of Corbyn that the Labour right were happy not to just go along with but actively fuel. Of course, for them, Brexit was never as important as keeping the lefties out, especially a leftie who wouldn’t let them get a first-class ticket on the gravy train. |
This sounds a lot like Ipswich under Paul Lambert, always lots of excuses. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:48 - Mar 2 with 432 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:38 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
That starting position was still reeling from Brexit (and Starmer’s own position for Labour that I happened to agree with).
That’s without even addressing how the remarkably evidence-free media attacks against Corbyn put Labour at a disadvantage, while Boris himself was also given a relatively free ride until the pandemic and reality struck.
On a side note, the irony is that the compromise of a second vote on Brexit and taking a step away from a hard Brexit at least was scuppered by the portrayal of Corbyn that the Labour right were happy not to just go along with but actively fuel. Of course, for them, Brexit was never as important as keeping the lefties out, especially a leftie who wouldn’t let them get a first-class ticket on the gravy train. |
I appreciate that Starmer's starting position (20 points behind) was partly due to the fact that Corbyn was a lame duck leader post-election and the Tories were benefiting from that, so isn't entirely representative of reality. However, the current situation, even with a Tory vaccine bounce (around 5 points behind) is still better than the 2019 election result (11.5 points behind.) |  |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:50 - Mar 2 with 427 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:34 - Mar 2 by StokieBlue |
Again though, what narrative can the opposition establish in the middle of a pandemic when a vaccine rollout is going pretty well? Can you give an example of a narrative that isn't going to be completely ignored during an ongoing pandemic.
It's just not the time to be attempting to create any grand sweeping narratives.
SB |
So how on earth did Biden and the Democrats carry out an actual campaign? How did BLM and the issue of systemic racism dominate the headlines? How do the Greens or XR keep pushing the need for significant intervention to address climate change? How were the issues of systemic wealth and health inequality raised by the pandemic and used to push for the measures needed?
You seem to have a very passive approach to everything. But probably because our politicians and media generally feel the same way.
Meanwhile, in the real world, these issues were never going anywhere. Yet Boris will use the lack of focus and the vaccination to move on with shiny new toys like an Irish Sea tunnel, a World Cup campaign or a fake culture war and putting minorities and the poor back in their box. Even Scotland essentially seeing Independence as a response to this lack of interest and focus on the underlying issues affecting our society and economy will be used to push a flag-waving post-Brexit exceptionalism.
What can we do? We can stop sleepwalking into every situation and the next round of politics that the Tories have defined. [Post edited 2 Mar 2021 15:15]
| |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 14:01 - Mar 2 with 394 views | StokieBlue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:50 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
So how on earth did Biden and the Democrats carry out an actual campaign? How did BLM and the issue of systemic racism dominate the headlines? How do the Greens or XR keep pushing the need for significant intervention to address climate change? How were the issues of systemic wealth and health inequality raised by the pandemic and used to push for the measures needed?
You seem to have a very passive approach to everything. But probably because our politicians and media generally feel the same way.
Meanwhile, in the real world, these issues were never going anywhere. Yet Boris will use the lack of focus and the vaccination to move on with shiny new toys like an Irish Sea tunnel, a World Cup campaign or a fake culture war and putting minorities and the poor back in their box. Even Scotland essentially seeing Independence as a response to this lack of interest and focus on the underlying issues affecting our society and economy will be used to push a flag-waving post-Brexit exceptionalism.
What can we do? We can stop sleepwalking into every situation and the next round of politics that the Tories have defined. [Post edited 2 Mar 2021 15:15]
|
You've not answered the question which is a shame. Can you state a specific narrative that Labour and specifically Starmer should have pushed hard during an ongoing pandemic?
As for your actual response, Biden campaigned against an awful Trump who didn't even have a successful vaccine programme to fall back on. People were thoroughly fed up with Trump and the previous 4 years. It's also not really an equivalence at all given it was a campaign for an actual election rather than trying to change the narrative whilst in opposition during a pandemic and 3 years away from an election.
BLM and XR took a lot of headlines during the summer when C19 wasn't very prevalent. I would also point out that neither is an opposition party and neither are making policies which they will be expected in enact It's once again not an equivalence.
It's not about having a passive approach, it's about doing things when they will actually make a difference and have traction. You want everything done now regardless of whether it's going to get any traction or even be applicable when the election does come round. If he then changes any policies he's created now you'll have a go at him for that.
I would also ask you to take a step back and look at how many people you're arguing with in this thread, the majority of whom are Labour supporters. Given this perhaps your view isn't as widespread as you feel it is.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 14:02 - Mar 2 with 387 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:48 - Mar 2 by tractordownsouth |
I appreciate that Starmer's starting position (20 points behind) was partly due to the fact that Corbyn was a lame duck leader post-election and the Tories were benefiting from that, so isn't entirely representative of reality. However, the current situation, even with a Tory vaccine bounce (around 5 points behind) is still better than the 2019 election result (11.5 points behind.) |
You mean the election that was defined by Brexit and cut across almost all political lines?
What if you went back to Corbyn and Labour’s actual lead when Brexit was basically parked and effectively the same non-question as it was after December 2019? That lead was even with the ongoing campaign to demonise Corbyn personally and with a lack of PLP support.
But really it’s about expunging that middle two years of Corbyn’s reign and ignoring why millions of voters came back to Labour. But that’s who these people are – they don’t want progressive politics, they want power and influence on a personal level and they’d certainly take that in opposition than not at all. | |
| |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 14:24 - Mar 2 with 370 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 14:01 - Mar 2 by StokieBlue |
You've not answered the question which is a shame. Can you state a specific narrative that Labour and specifically Starmer should have pushed hard during an ongoing pandemic?
As for your actual response, Biden campaigned against an awful Trump who didn't even have a successful vaccine programme to fall back on. People were thoroughly fed up with Trump and the previous 4 years. It's also not really an equivalence at all given it was a campaign for an actual election rather than trying to change the narrative whilst in opposition during a pandemic and 3 years away from an election.
BLM and XR took a lot of headlines during the summer when C19 wasn't very prevalent. I would also point out that neither is an opposition party and neither are making policies which they will be expected in enact It's once again not an equivalence.
It's not about having a passive approach, it's about doing things when they will actually make a difference and have traction. You want everything done now regardless of whether it's going to get any traction or even be applicable when the election does come round. If he then changes any policies he's created now you'll have a go at him for that.
I would also ask you to take a step back and look at how many people you're arguing with in this thread, the majority of whom are Labour supporters. Given this perhaps your view isn't as widespread as you feel it is.
SB |
I wrote a longer reply and lost it. But I think you know I am talking about the narrative already with the references to BLM, the environment and wealth inequality as already established major themes.
Similarly you can add PR and political representation, health, education, low productivity, dropping value of human labour, UBI, new ways of working, identity issues, foreign policy, foreign aid, cross-border cooperation, trade etc. etc. can all be added into the mix. These are all issues that exist in and out of a pandemic and in many cases are heightened and illustrated perfectly. Along with the justification to do something about it as with furloughing or raising the level of UC for example.
There’s a narrative there, not necessarily putting all of the details to the fore, but certainly seeing the chance to reboot. That’s a vision Labour could be promoting but instead we’ve got technocratic tinkering as if none of this really matters. It’s that lack of engagement, ambition and hope that’s where Labour are really struggling. And incidentally why people who care about this stuff today let alone tomorrow think they’re so crap. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
