| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? 19:16 - Mar 1 with 7589 views | Darth_Koont |
Utterly shocking how useless and pointless they are as a political project. They’re even incompetent at pushing their “flagship” competence idea.
FWIW I don’t even blame Starmer. He could still be a decent, thoughtful and principled man. I blame the empty suits in the team around him who look to be stuck somewhere in the last century and are seemingly devoid of any ideas about how to tackle 2021 and beyond. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:40 - Mar 1 with 1506 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 19:53 - Mar 1 by StokieBlue |
For months now you've ignored context entirely.
We are in the middle of a pandemic, going crazy with alternative policies at the moment would be pointless and would likely alienate even more support. The Tories are giving away money as they have no choice so it's hard to even promise more state intervention.
It's much more important to get through the pandemic, let the Tories have a surge and then let it be eroded over the next few years. That is the time to make new and bold policies and be an alternative.
Worst ever party indeed. The previous leadership are the ones that got us into this position. Continually asking for policies didn't change the realities of the world we are currently in.
Now I know you'll totally disagree, call me naïve and carry on. I'll let you do that and others can continue from here.
SB |
Not sure of your evidence for any of that Stokie.
But I suppose it depends on perspective and how you see the current and future challenges facing the UK and its citizens. Personally, I don’t think a tepid centre-right defence of the status quo is going to cut it at all. Hell, they’re even making Boris look like he has more of a grasp and a better answer! | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:43 - Mar 1 with 1505 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:36 - Mar 1 by Bluefish |
Just let it go with corbz like everyone else has. He isn't coming back and he is irrelevant for everyone else, his only legacy is wasting a golden opportunity (more than one) to beat some useless Tories |
You’re confusing “Corbz” with socialism/social democracy. That ain’t going away unless you bury your head even further in the sand. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:55 - Mar 1 with 1484 views | giant_stow |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:43 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
You’re confusing “Corbz” with socialism/social democracy. That ain’t going away unless you bury your head even further in the sand. |
It would have been interesting to see what a very left Labour could have done without Corbyn as leader. If they'd got in and done all the furlough stuff too, I spose everyone would have hailed the arrival of the true socialists! |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:01 - Mar 1 with 1470 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:55 - Mar 1 by giant_stow |
It would have been interesting to see what a very left Labour could have done without Corbyn as leader. If they'd got in and done all the furlough stuff too, I spose everyone would have hailed the arrival of the true socialists! |
The furlough isn’t socialist per se – it’s a fairly standard response around the world.
What would be socialist is to understand how these measures can and should feed into the normal care of citizens and combating injustice/inequality. Essentially, there’s the same logic for Universal Basic Income and that’s only going to increase as the value of human labour drops. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:02 - Mar 1 with 1466 views | WeWereZombies |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:28 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure it was me, but think it was the same thread.
Them getting even the most vanilla social democracy wrong, let alone anything more progressive than that has been like a sick joke. |
I think that might have been me, I found it fascinating that Corbyn was so easily led by agenda setting that his party was to in opposition the right of, if memory serves, John Major in government when the policies were analysed. Some of that was down to the way the economy has changed the last quarter of a century, some down media treatment making the party reactive rather than proactive. But it still leaves an apparent vacuum in the political acumen of Momentum and Corbyn.
I am hopeful still that Starmer is a return to pragmatic Socialism, and that he is carefully planning an adequate response not just to Johnson's 'not a second thought' reactive administration but to the times we find ourselves in. That's what we want from a political party, isn't it? |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:07 - Mar 1 with 1456 views | Guthrum |
Proof of the pudding will be in the election - and that's still the best part of four years away.
Politics is in a sort of stasis at the moment, Covid being the only issue of real significance. Everything else has been pushed well into the background, people aren't interested. There's limited mileage in simply carping at the Government over their performance. There are few alternatives to how things are going now (vaccination, careful reopening) and it eventually just sounds like whining.
Thus there are few openings for dynamic and effective opposition.
What will be more telling is from the latter part of this year onwards, assuming we emerge from the pandemic as hoped. Other issues will begin to rear their heads, not least the economic recovery, unemployment and social/work changes. Plus Brexit effects and the potential of relationship troubles with Northern Ireland and with Scotland (assuming the SNP don't consume themselves with infighting). That is when we are going to see what kind of thing the Starmer Labour Party really is. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:09 - Mar 1 with 1450 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:02 - Mar 1 by WeWereZombies |
I think that might have been me, I found it fascinating that Corbyn was so easily led by agenda setting that his party was to in opposition the right of, if memory serves, John Major in government when the policies were analysed. Some of that was down to the way the economy has changed the last quarter of a century, some down media treatment making the party reactive rather than proactive. But it still leaves an apparent vacuum in the political acumen of Momentum and Corbyn.
I am hopeful still that Starmer is a return to pragmatic Socialism, and that he is carefully planning an adequate response not just to Johnson's 'not a second thought' reactive administration but to the times we find ourselves in. That's what we want from a political party, isn't it? |
Unfortunately there’s little to no indication of that from what Labour have said and done over the past 11 months.
That might have to change as they’ve made little to no dent in the Tories despite everything that’s gone on and with Brexit now not the defining issue.
But I fear that these people aren’t really capable of much more than trying to follow the mood and always significantly later and more cautiously than others. So no-one is enthused by them at all, not even their traditional supporters. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:26 - Mar 1 with 1418 views | J2BLUE |
A party with policies to match your views won't get elected so you'll just have to carry on sneering at anyone who doesn't agree and thinking they're intellectually beneath you.
And yes, Starmer has been underwhelming, no doubt about it. , |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:32 - Mar 1 with 1409 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
I didn't vote for Starmer in the LLC I voted for Lisa Nandy. The reason why is because I had seen first hand that although Starmer is clearly a very intelligent guy, he doesn't make people care. He was essentially the voice of remain after the Brexit result, but he was never really galvanising anyone, or speaking about the topic like he cared about it, even though he did.
Now being entertaining isn't the qualities that I want in a PM, but having a large set of cojones is, and someone who is passionate and most importantly somebody who will answer questions directly, which also Starmer seems to struggle with. I understand some of his abstentions and have found others fairly ridiculous, I think his PMQ performances have dipped and he would benefit from speaking classes. Most importantly, I still have no idea what he stands for. I want Keir Starmer to be our next prime minister. But right now I cannot see that happening. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:51 - Mar 1 with 1387 views | tractordownsouth |
I had a look the other day at the polling in Brazil and the US (two countries with an even worse Covid response compared to the UK) in March and now. Trump actually increased his polling between March and November despite holding mass rallies, telling people to inject bleach and mocking mask wearers. Likewise, Bolsonaro is now further ahead in the polls than he was in March 2020, despite displaying a similarly irresponsible attitude.
Sure, the Labour polling has stalled, but to go from a 20 point deficit in March and a 12 point deficit in December 2019 to a 5 or 6 point deficit now (even with the Tory vaccine bounce) shows that Starmer's first year has been moderately successful. Likewise, Labour polling in Wales (where the party is in government) has increased significantly since March, and again since the success of the vaccine rollout. I've disagreed with Starmer's stance on schools and lack of action on transphobia but this shows that for all the shouting about being behind against the worst government ever (an assessment I don't disagree with) the evidence shows it is an international trend that opposition parties are struggling to break through at the moment, so it's not a disaster.
It's also interesting that the people who were happy to charge into the 2019 election when we were 12 points behind are the same ones who are claiming it's a crisis now to be behind by half that margin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2020_United_Sta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Brazilian_general_ele |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:53 - Mar 1 with 1383 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:26 - Mar 1 by J2BLUE |
A party with policies to match your views won't get elected so you'll just have to carry on sneering at anyone who doesn't agree and thinking they're intellectually beneath you.
And yes, Starmer has been underwhelming, no doubt about it. , |
Strange take.
You agree but don’t agree. And think this is in some way about intellect rather than differing priorities. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:58 - Mar 1 with 1372 views | J2BLUE |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:53 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Strange take.
You agree but don’t agree. And think this is in some way about intellect rather than differing priorities. |
I think he needs to show more, tell us where he stands and not take a fortnight before opposing some minor issue and ignoring everything else going on.
You would oppose anything that isn't completely in line with your views and a party completely in line with your view has no chance of getting elected. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:59 - Mar 1 with 1370 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:51 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
I had a look the other day at the polling in Brazil and the US (two countries with an even worse Covid response compared to the UK) in March and now. Trump actually increased his polling between March and November despite holding mass rallies, telling people to inject bleach and mocking mask wearers. Likewise, Bolsonaro is now further ahead in the polls than he was in March 2020, despite displaying a similarly irresponsible attitude.
Sure, the Labour polling has stalled, but to go from a 20 point deficit in March and a 12 point deficit in December 2019 to a 5 or 6 point deficit now (even with the Tory vaccine bounce) shows that Starmer's first year has been moderately successful. Likewise, Labour polling in Wales (where the party is in government) has increased significantly since March, and again since the success of the vaccine rollout. I've disagreed with Starmer's stance on schools and lack of action on transphobia but this shows that for all the shouting about being behind against the worst government ever (an assessment I don't disagree with) the evidence shows it is an international trend that opposition parties are struggling to break through at the moment, so it's not a disaster.
It's also interesting that the people who were happy to charge into the 2019 election when we were 12 points behind are the same ones who are claiming it's a crisis now to be behind by half that margin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2020_United_Sta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2022_Brazilian_general_ele |
Biden fought and won an election during a pandemic – and did so by not retreating to flag-shagging, low taxes, turning a blind eye to injustice and punching left. Quite the opposite in fact.
It’s a strange world when the US Democrats feel and act significantly left of Labour. And it seems that even Johnson might pass them left soon or at least occupy the same centre-right space.
Seriously, mate. Starter et al have been rubbish and more unpopular the more they’ve spoken. And that’s without saying anything of any substance. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:06 - Mar 1 with 1348 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:58 - Mar 1 by J2BLUE |
I think he needs to show more, tell us where he stands and not take a fortnight before opposing some minor issue and ignoring everything else going on.
You would oppose anything that isn't completely in line with your views and a party completely in line with your view has no chance of getting elected. |
Thanks for telling me what I would oppose. I’d have nothing against Starmer’s Labour if they were moderate right-wingers and not the party of opposition in a two-horse race.
FWIW I am completely opposed to a lack of a genuine and progressive alternative given the much more real and major issues facing the UK and the world as a whole. Posturing around some far-off electoral success is missing the point entirely about the discussions we should be having now, especially during a pandemic. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:21 - Mar 1 with 1324 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 21:59 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Biden fought and won an election during a pandemic – and did so by not retreating to flag-shagging, low taxes, turning a blind eye to injustice and punching left. Quite the opposite in fact.
It’s a strange world when the US Democrats feel and act significantly left of Labour. And it seems that even Johnson might pass them left soon or at least occupy the same centre-right space.
Seriously, mate. Starter et al have been rubbish and more unpopular the more they’ve spoken. And that’s without saying anything of any substance. |
I agree that a centre-left coalition should be built, but the fact that you're accusing Starmer of flag shagging whilst defending Biden and supporting Nicola Sturgeon (both of whom rightly use their country's flag, just as Starmer does) shows that you're holding them to different standards depending on your previously-held views on them.
As for the low taxes thing, Johnson isn't moving to the left of Labour. It's standard centre-left Keynesian economics to lower taxes in a recession and increase them in a boom - by advocating tax rises now, you're implying that budgets need to be balanced instantly and regardless of the state of the economy, which is a Tory argument. I'm in favour of a windfall tax now as certain companies have made excess profits during this pandemic, but putting taxes up shouldn't be a priority until we're back on our feet. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:47 - Mar 1 with 1297 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:21 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
I agree that a centre-left coalition should be built, but the fact that you're accusing Starmer of flag shagging whilst defending Biden and supporting Nicola Sturgeon (both of whom rightly use their country's flag, just as Starmer does) shows that you're holding them to different standards depending on your previously-held views on them.
As for the low taxes thing, Johnson isn't moving to the left of Labour. It's standard centre-left Keynesian economics to lower taxes in a recession and increase them in a boom - by advocating tax rises now, you're implying that budgets need to be balanced instantly and regardless of the state of the economy, which is a Tory argument. I'm in favour of a windfall tax now as certain companies have made excess profits during this pandemic, but putting taxes up shouldn't be a priority until we're back on our feet. |
This thread just exemplifies why we are going to have to accept Governments like the current one for the foreseeable future.
The electorate is broadly right of centre (or at least around 50% of it is). There is one major party prepared to follow public opinion about as far right as necessary to prevent any genuine opposition on the right. Meanwhile there are 3 or more parties fighting to share the rest of the vote and splitting it so effectively that a landslide Government can easily be voted in on 43.6% of the vote share.
What the left-leaning parties should be doing is forming a coalition to bring a form of proportional representation or single transferable vote. However, too many of them are still of the misunderstanding that they can hold power or think aligning themselves in any way with each other will destroy their reputation/credibility. In fact to such a degree that the LibDems even get into bed with the Conservatives and yet still the Conservatives roll out the "watch out for the LibLab pact" argument.
How depressing it is. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:54 - Mar 1 with 1289 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:21 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
I agree that a centre-left coalition should be built, but the fact that you're accusing Starmer of flag shagging whilst defending Biden and supporting Nicola Sturgeon (both of whom rightly use their country's flag, just as Starmer does) shows that you're holding them to different standards depending on your previously-held views on them.
As for the low taxes thing, Johnson isn't moving to the left of Labour. It's standard centre-left Keynesian economics to lower taxes in a recession and increase them in a boom - by advocating tax rises now, you're implying that budgets need to be balanced instantly and regardless of the state of the economy, which is a Tory argument. I'm in favour of a windfall tax now as certain companies have made excess profits during this pandemic, but putting taxes up shouldn't be a priority until we're back on our feet. |
No, it doesn’t need to be balanced straightaway but this is a gift horse for anyone remotely interested in redistributing wealth and trying to counteract growing inequality. It’s a tax on profit that has been way too low in normal times anyway – a point I’ve made repeatedly on here over the past couple of years. But we have Starmer triangulating for effect and Nandy not even seeming to grasp the basics in her take yesterday.
It’s woeful stuff.
As for the flags, the US politicians have always used flags and red, white and blue colours for as long as I can remember and the SNP is defined by its name and the independence question. Starmer’s “family, nation and opportunity” posturing is pure cosmetics but just feeds into the Tories’ own agenda. It’s also not working.
He needs a new team and a new approach at least. But the question is whether he’s now trapped in this charade because to abandon it and talk real issues and bolder solutions would seem even more unconvincing and shallow than currently. Incredible really that this mess is all his and his team’s own doing, with the support of the PLP and the media, and with no Brexit and 120,000 deaths from Covid on the watch of a corrupt, lying and patently self-interested government. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:02 - Mar 1 with 1271 views | StokieBlue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 20:40 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure of your evidence for any of that Stokie.
But I suppose it depends on perspective and how you see the current and future challenges facing the UK and its citizens. Personally, I don’t think a tepid centre-right defence of the status quo is going to cut it at all. Hell, they’re even making Boris look like he has more of a grasp and a better answer! |
The evidence of what I cited is clear for anyone who wishes to see it, some of it is even in your own thread.
- We clearly are in the middle of a pandemic.
- The Tories are clearly giving away vast sums because they have no choice.
- The Tories are surging due to the vaccine rollout.
- That lead will be eroded but any policies stated now will get no traction due to the above 3 things.
- Given this it's clearly not the time to be making grand policy choices.
Furthermore if we look at this thread as a proxy for the country you are currently sitting on -6 votes whilst myself and SteveM are sitting on +19 with essentially the opposite view. Whilst this is certainly a very small sample size it probably reaches across demographics and certainly reaches across parties so I would postulate that it is you who is in the minority opinion here.
I honestly don't see why this is difficult. Starmer hasn't been that good but it's virtually impossible for him to be so at the moment. I don't think any other opposition leader would be doing that much better given the current priorities of the country. The news is entirely about the pandemic and getting the country back to normal, nobody except you cares very much the future challenges at the moment. That time will come and when it does these types of threads will make much more sense and will be a better debate.
As is stands they are totally pointless because it's simply not the right time. Sometimes pragmatism is the best (and in this case only) way forward.
SB [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 23:03]
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:08 - Mar 1 with 1262 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:47 - Mar 1 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This thread just exemplifies why we are going to have to accept Governments like the current one for the foreseeable future.
The electorate is broadly right of centre (or at least around 50% of it is). There is one major party prepared to follow public opinion about as far right as necessary to prevent any genuine opposition on the right. Meanwhile there are 3 or more parties fighting to share the rest of the vote and splitting it so effectively that a landslide Government can easily be voted in on 43.6% of the vote share.
What the left-leaning parties should be doing is forming a coalition to bring a form of proportional representation or single transferable vote. However, too many of them are still of the misunderstanding that they can hold power or think aligning themselves in any way with each other will destroy their reputation/credibility. In fact to such a degree that the LibDems even get into bed with the Conservatives and yet still the Conservatives roll out the "watch out for the LibLab pact" argument.
How depressing it is. |
Agree with you here. The Tories, under FPTP at least, have a lock on the c. 40% of votes they need for a majority. And the firepower of the media when needed.
A splintered anti-Tory majority need a coalition to challenge that. I think PR and a Green New Deal would be a great platform, especially coupled with a commitment to fight systemic racism and inequality. These are the issues that are already overtaking party politics and can be harnessed to great effect. And of course, these are the issues that really matter in the real world too.
Hopefully this can pick up momentum. Clive Lewis is already pushing this and might be a possible leadership challenger. But if not it may end up engulfing the Labour Party anyway given how little the current leadership has to offer. [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 23:09]
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:11 - Mar 1 with 1255 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:54 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
No, it doesn’t need to be balanced straightaway but this is a gift horse for anyone remotely interested in redistributing wealth and trying to counteract growing inequality. It’s a tax on profit that has been way too low in normal times anyway – a point I’ve made repeatedly on here over the past couple of years. But we have Starmer triangulating for effect and Nandy not even seeming to grasp the basics in her take yesterday.
It’s woeful stuff.
As for the flags, the US politicians have always used flags and red, white and blue colours for as long as I can remember and the SNP is defined by its name and the independence question. Starmer’s “family, nation and opportunity” posturing is pure cosmetics but just feeds into the Tories’ own agenda. It’s also not working.
He needs a new team and a new approach at least. But the question is whether he’s now trapped in this charade because to abandon it and talk real issues and bolder solutions would seem even more unconvincing and shallow than currently. Incredible really that this mess is all his and his team’s own doing, with the support of the PLP and the media, and with no Brexit and 120,000 deaths from Covid on the watch of a corrupt, lying and patently self-interested government. |
The party has campaigned against FSM cuts, Universal Credit cuts and the public sector pay freeze, so it's not as if the party isn't interested in tackling inequality. The general vision of being an anti-austerity party was set out by Starmer and Dodds the other week and the specific policies will come before the election - this is the same approach taken by Blair, Miliband and Corbyn.
But still, why is it okay for US and Scottish politicans to embrace their flag, but Starmer's a "flag shagger?" It's double standards. Blair, Brown, Wilson and Attlee all made use of the flag during their periods in charge of the Labour Party too, so it's hardly anything new.
You're still not addressing the fact that opposition parties worldwide are failing to cut through at the moment, even against incumbent governments with a poor record. You can talk about corruption and 120,000 deaths all you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's the same story throught the world. The people who are sounding the alarm about a supposed Labour crisis (Bastani, Jones, Blakeley etc.) are the same ones who have been utterly wrong about almost every political prediction they have made in the past few years. The real test will be the economic and political arguments post-pandemic. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:14 - Mar 1 with 1251 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 22:47 - Mar 1 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This thread just exemplifies why we are going to have to accept Governments like the current one for the foreseeable future.
The electorate is broadly right of centre (or at least around 50% of it is). There is one major party prepared to follow public opinion about as far right as necessary to prevent any genuine opposition on the right. Meanwhile there are 3 or more parties fighting to share the rest of the vote and splitting it so effectively that a landslide Government can easily be voted in on 43.6% of the vote share.
What the left-leaning parties should be doing is forming a coalition to bring a form of proportional representation or single transferable vote. However, too many of them are still of the misunderstanding that they can hold power or think aligning themselves in any way with each other will destroy their reputation/credibility. In fact to such a degree that the LibDems even get into bed with the Conservatives and yet still the Conservatives roll out the "watch out for the LibLab pact" argument.
How depressing it is. |
I'd definitely be in favour of a Lab/Lib/Green alliance in a few key seats with a promise to implement a more proportional system once in government. However, I don't think having only 1 centre-left candidate in every seat would work as there are a fair few Lib Dems who would vote Tory over Labour. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:28 - Mar 1 with 1238 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:02 - Mar 1 by StokieBlue |
The evidence of what I cited is clear for anyone who wishes to see it, some of it is even in your own thread.
- We clearly are in the middle of a pandemic.
- The Tories are clearly giving away vast sums because they have no choice.
- The Tories are surging due to the vaccine rollout.
- That lead will be eroded but any policies stated now will get no traction due to the above 3 things.
- Given this it's clearly not the time to be making grand policy choices.
Furthermore if we look at this thread as a proxy for the country you are currently sitting on -6 votes whilst myself and SteveM are sitting on +19 with essentially the opposite view. Whilst this is certainly a very small sample size it probably reaches across demographics and certainly reaches across parties so I would postulate that it is you who is in the minority opinion here.
I honestly don't see why this is difficult. Starmer hasn't been that good but it's virtually impossible for him to be so at the moment. I don't think any other opposition leader would be doing that much better given the current priorities of the country. The news is entirely about the pandemic and getting the country back to normal, nobody except you cares very much the future challenges at the moment. That time will come and when it does these types of threads will make much more sense and will be a better debate.
As is stands they are totally pointless because it's simply not the right time. Sometimes pragmatism is the best (and in this case only) way forward.
SB [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 23:03]
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But Starmer’s losing support in the wider population even before vaccination ... and critically has been actively happy to lose support in his own party and his own power base.
If you were talking about treading water and waiting for the right opportunity then why has he been taking the wrong opportunities so far?
I think you, Steve and many others have a very narrow and conventional view of this stuff (IMO of course) so I take your informal poll with a pinch of salt. It’s the same nodding along sagely to the status quo and a narrow media view that has brought us amongst other things growing inequality, rising racism and xenophobia, low productivity, Scottish independence, environmental lassitude, a younger generation that can barely get a foot on any sort of rung, Brexit and a Boris Johnson government so I’m more than happy to be on the “wrong” side here. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:30 - Mar 1 with 1234 views | Herbivore |
They're not even the worst major political party in the UK currently. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:34 - Mar 1 with 1224 views | StokieBlue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:28 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
But Starmer’s losing support in the wider population even before vaccination ... and critically has been actively happy to lose support in his own party and his own power base.
If you were talking about treading water and waiting for the right opportunity then why has he been taking the wrong opportunities so far?
I think you, Steve and many others have a very narrow and conventional view of this stuff (IMO of course) so I take your informal poll with a pinch of salt. It’s the same nodding along sagely to the status quo and a narrow media view that has brought us amongst other things growing inequality, rising racism and xenophobia, low productivity, Scottish independence, environmental lassitude, a younger generation that can barely get a foot on any sort of rung, Brexit and a Boris Johnson government so I’m more than happy to be on the “wrong” side here. |
It's all pointless at the moment. At times of crisis the party of power usually get a decent surge in support, as others have pointed out this has been echoed in lots of countries across the world in the current pandemic.
If he was to do as you wanted it would all be ignored and forgotten. The vast majority of people don't care about progressive policies when they can't even leave their home or go to a friends house.
It's all about context and you're posts are all framed in a normal world and we simply aren't in one at the moment.
Come back in a year or 18 months and then your points will be far more relevant and everyone can have a proper debate. I know it's rubbish but unfortunately the whole world is a bit rubbish at the moment.
SB [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 23:35]
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:42 - Mar 1 with 1212 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:11 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
The party has campaigned against FSM cuts, Universal Credit cuts and the public sector pay freeze, so it's not as if the party isn't interested in tackling inequality. The general vision of being an anti-austerity party was set out by Starmer and Dodds the other week and the specific policies will come before the election - this is the same approach taken by Blair, Miliband and Corbyn.
But still, why is it okay for US and Scottish politicans to embrace their flag, but Starmer's a "flag shagger?" It's double standards. Blair, Brown, Wilson and Attlee all made use of the flag during their periods in charge of the Labour Party too, so it's hardly anything new.
You're still not addressing the fact that opposition parties worldwide are failing to cut through at the moment, even against incumbent governments with a poor record. You can talk about corruption and 120,000 deaths all you like, it doesn't change the fact that it's the same story throught the world. The people who are sounding the alarm about a supposed Labour crisis (Bastani, Jones, Blakeley etc.) are the same ones who have been utterly wrong about almost every political prediction they have made in the past few years. The real test will be the economic and political arguments post-pandemic. |
I’ve explained the flags. Also the Union Jack itself isn’t as inclusive as the others you mention. Why is it suddenly so important?
You brought up the US and Biden won an election so not sure your “opposition is tough” argument works. It’s certainly no Brexit, I’m sure you’ll agree.
And the reason it’s not cutting through is because there’s nothing there. This stuff they’ve been “campaigning” for doesn’t go anything like far enough. It’s tinkering and taking certain principled stands while dropping the ball on others. And in no way putting forward a coherent picture of the UK Labour wants to see.
This is like Ipswich under Lambert - always excuses but always still managing to do the wrong things anyway. This has been a real test and they’ve failed it. Whether they can turn that around post-pandemic remains to be seen but considering the narrative is owned by Johnson, and they seem clueless, then I severely doubt it. | |
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