| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? 19:16 - Mar 1 with 7590 views | Darth_Koont |
Utterly shocking how useless and pointless they are as a political project. They’re even incompetent at pushing their “flagship” competence idea.
FWIW I don’t even blame Starmer. He could still be a decent, thoughtful and principled man. I blame the empty suits in the team around him who look to be stuck somewhere in the last century and are seemingly devoid of any ideas about how to tackle 2021 and beyond. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:49 - Mar 1 with 1841 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:34 - Mar 1 by StokieBlue |
It's all pointless at the moment. At times of crisis the party of power usually get a decent surge in support, as others have pointed out this has been echoed in lots of countries across the world in the current pandemic.
If he was to do as you wanted it would all be ignored and forgotten. The vast majority of people don't care about progressive policies when they can't even leave their home or go to a friends house.
It's all about context and you're posts are all framed in a normal world and we simply aren't in one at the moment.
Come back in a year or 18 months and then your points will be far more relevant and everyone can have a proper debate. I know it's rubbish but unfortunately the whole world is a bit rubbish at the moment.
SB [Post edited 1 Mar 2021 23:35]
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I get that Stokie. But the arguments and issues aren’t stopping for the pandemic and waiting for a return to normal. They’re moving ahead. Labour could and should be leading on several of them.
It seems deeply disturbing that we should point to the US and see how even despite the chaos of Trump and a larger-scale pandemic crisis that they are pushing ahead with wider policies and discussions.
We on the other hand seem paralysed and just waiting for Johnson to define the post-Brexit, post-pandemic debate. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:53 - Mar 1 with 1842 views | Ryorry |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 19:54 - Mar 1 by pointofblue |
Have to admit I was going to point out the Conservatives were an utter and complete mess until Cameron took over. Hague could have been a decent leader but took over at the wrong time. |
Cameron was the worst Prime Minister on my lifetime in the sense that he allowed the referendum, ignoring warnings from European officials that it was a massive gamble which could result in catastrophe for the UK. The damage arising from Brexsh1t is likely to adversely affect us for many years to come
I was born in the middle of the last C. btw. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:57 - Mar 1 with 1835 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:42 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
I’ve explained the flags. Also the Union Jack itself isn’t as inclusive as the others you mention. Why is it suddenly so important?
You brought up the US and Biden won an election so not sure your “opposition is tough” argument works. It’s certainly no Brexit, I’m sure you’ll agree.
And the reason it’s not cutting through is because there’s nothing there. This stuff they’ve been “campaigning” for doesn’t go anything like far enough. It’s tinkering and taking certain principled stands while dropping the ball on others. And in no way putting forward a coherent picture of the UK Labour wants to see.
This is like Ipswich under Lambert - always excuses but always still managing to do the wrong things anyway. This has been a real test and they’ve failed it. Whether they can turn that around post-pandemic remains to be seen but considering the narrative is owned by Johnson, and they seem clueless, then I severely doubt it. |
Biden won an election but he was already consistently polling ahead of Trump before Covid, so he didn’t make up any ground over the incumbent despite said incumbent presiding over the worst response in the world. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 00:11 - Mar 2 with 1815 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:57 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
Biden won an election but he was already consistently polling ahead of Trump before Covid, so he didn’t make up any ground over the incumbent despite said incumbent presiding over the worst response in the world. |
Biden widened the gap and increased his vote. Starmer’s personal figures have been going down pretty much throughout.
I know you have to believe this is all going to plan but really can’t see what’s going to suddenly change unless they change their approach and their ideas radically.
As it happens, I remain unconvinced that a powerful vision serves the personal interests of those who now surround Starmer. I think they’d much rather consolidate and represent the left flank of the establishment and that will be the extent of the politics and policies we’ll see. A cynical point of view perhaps but this reeks of Change UK on a bigger scale and we know what happened to all of them. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:04 - Mar 2 with 1749 views | MonkeyAlan |
Boris is a good egg though. |  | | |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:07 - Mar 2 with 1745 views | Herbivore |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:04 - Mar 2 by MonkeyAlan |
Boris is a good egg though. |
It wasn't funny the first time, mate. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:11 - Mar 2 with 1733 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:04 - Mar 2 by MonkeyAlan |
Boris is a good egg though. |
No he certainly isn’t. The Conservatives and Johnson are on another level including, unfortunately for everyone else, how effective they are politically.
So that millions of people nod along, think they’re “good eggs” and vote blindly for them. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:22 - Mar 2 with 1716 views | tractordownsouth |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 00:11 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Biden widened the gap and increased his vote. Starmer’s personal figures have been going down pretty much throughout.
I know you have to believe this is all going to plan but really can’t see what’s going to suddenly change unless they change their approach and their ideas radically.
As it happens, I remain unconvinced that a powerful vision serves the personal interests of those who now surround Starmer. I think they’d much rather consolidate and represent the left flank of the establishment and that will be the extent of the politics and policies we’ll see. A cynical point of view perhaps but this reeks of Change UK on a bigger scale and we know what happened to all of them. |
He didn't widen the gap. His polling leads were on average the same between March and November. By contrast, Labour has gone from an 11 point gap in December 2019 and 20 point gap in March 2020 to a 5 point gap now.
Of course Biden's electoral performance has surpassed Starmer and you can't enact your policies without winning, but it's disingenous to not look at the mess Starmer inherited and the fact that we don't have an election coming up anytime soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2020_United_Sta | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:03 - Mar 2 with 1683 views | 26_Paz |
This is before my time but I think there were some pretty inept Labour oppositions to Thatcher? If I were a Labour supporter I’d be giving him a chance. It’s strange and unique times at the moment ... see how he performs in ‘normal’ times, of which there should be plenty before any election campaign. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:25 - Mar 2 with 1665 views | pointofblue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:03 - Mar 2 by 26_Paz |
This is before my time but I think there were some pretty inept Labour oppositions to Thatcher? If I were a Labour supporter I’d be giving him a chance. It’s strange and unique times at the moment ... see how he performs in ‘normal’ times, of which there should be plenty before any election campaign. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56246532 |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:29 - Mar 2 with 1654 views | WeWereZombies |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:03 - Mar 2 by 26_Paz |
This is before my time but I think there were some pretty inept Labour oppositions to Thatcher? If I were a Labour supporter I’d be giving him a chance. It’s strange and unique times at the moment ... see how he performs in ‘normal’ times, of which there should be plenty before any election campaign. |
My opinion is that the Labour party was it's worst in my lifetime when Callaghan was in power. His stonewalling of interviewers and apparent unawareness of the critical state of the economy at the time allowed the Thatcher administration to creep in and deal a near fatal blow to our manufacturing sector and to the British sense of what is fair and decent. Which one of the Thatcher administrations wins the worst-ever major political party accolade is more difficult to determine. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:29 - Mar 2 with 1654 views | Churchman |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:57 - Mar 1 by tractordownsouth |
Biden won an election but he was already consistently polling ahead of Trump before Covid, so he didn’t make up any ground over the incumbent despite said incumbent presiding over the worst response in the world. |
Did Biden win the election or Trump lose it? I think the latter. I actually don’t think there is much to Biden, but I think Trump demolished his chances by the way he responded to the pandemic. Even the dumbest American could work out that taking bleach was a poor idea for dealing with Covid.
I know it’s a cliche, but as a general rule I do think Governments lose elections rather than opposition winning them. On this debate, I don’t think there is much Starmer can do with the pandemic on. Nobody is interested in anything else at the moment. The test for him will come in a couple of years time.
I have to say, he hasn’t impressed me much to date, but let’s see how he and the Labour Party looks in 2 years time is my take on it. |  | | |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 10:30 - Mar 2 with 1654 views | giant_stow |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:22 - Mar 2 by tractordownsouth |
He didn't widen the gap. His polling leads were on average the same between March and November. By contrast, Labour has gone from an 11 point gap in December 2019 and 20 point gap in March 2020 to a 5 point gap now.
Of course Biden's electoral performance has surpassed Starmer and you can't enact your policies without winning, but it's disingenous to not look at the mess Starmer inherited and the fact that we don't have an election coming up anytime soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2020_United_Sta |
You can stop kicking now - I think hes had enough. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:06 - Mar 2 with 1606 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 09:22 - Mar 2 by tractordownsouth |
He didn't widen the gap. His polling leads were on average the same between March and November. By contrast, Labour has gone from an 11 point gap in December 2019 and 20 point gap in March 2020 to a 5 point gap now.
Of course Biden's electoral performance has surpassed Starmer and you can't enact your policies without winning, but it's disingenous to not look at the mess Starmer inherited and the fact that we don't have an election coming up anytime soon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationwide_opinion_polling_for_the_2020_United_Sta |
You must be looking at a different polling line than me. And the favourability of the Labour leader signals a trend that can be linked to the leader himself as Labour polling is much more complex given MPs, Brexit and how it’s linked to the other side of the coin which is the popularity of the other major party.
Add in how unpopular Starmer has become within his own party membership and among certain trade unions and minorities that should be allies and it’s a pretty poor performance. Within a context when Stokie and others are arguing that there’s nothing Starmer should be saying and doing of substance anyway.
Outflanked on all sides, uncharismatic in style or substance, dropping his pledges and Labour values at every turn, abstaining or voting through dodgy legislation, beholden to large donors, turning allies into enemies, ducking internal party democracy flaws, sweeping things like Labour leaks and islamophobia under the carpet, and doubling down on the factionalism since taking over. None of that’s coming from the outside or being forced on him – these are all choices made by him and the leadership of the party.
If this is your idea of doing well or even OK then things are going to get a lot worse for him and Labour. [Post edited 2 Mar 2021 12:07]
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:33 - Mar 2 with 1588 views | Herbivore |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:06 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
You must be looking at a different polling line than me. And the favourability of the Labour leader signals a trend that can be linked to the leader himself as Labour polling is much more complex given MPs, Brexit and how it’s linked to the other side of the coin which is the popularity of the other major party.
Add in how unpopular Starmer has become within his own party membership and among certain trade unions and minorities that should be allies and it’s a pretty poor performance. Within a context when Stokie and others are arguing that there’s nothing Starmer should be saying and doing of substance anyway.
Outflanked on all sides, uncharismatic in style or substance, dropping his pledges and Labour values at every turn, abstaining or voting through dodgy legislation, beholden to large donors, turning allies into enemies, ducking internal party democracy flaws, sweeping things like Labour leaks and islamophobia under the carpet, and doubling down on the factionalism since taking over. None of that’s coming from the outside or being forced on him – these are all choices made by him and the leadership of the party.
If this is your idea of doing well or even OK then things are going to get a lot worse for him and Labour. [Post edited 2 Mar 2021 12:07]
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Replace Starmer with Corbyn and this could have been written by someone like Lowhouse 18 months or so ago. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:37 - Mar 2 with 1586 views | itfcjoe |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:06 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
You must be looking at a different polling line than me. And the favourability of the Labour leader signals a trend that can be linked to the leader himself as Labour polling is much more complex given MPs, Brexit and how it’s linked to the other side of the coin which is the popularity of the other major party.
Add in how unpopular Starmer has become within his own party membership and among certain trade unions and minorities that should be allies and it’s a pretty poor performance. Within a context when Stokie and others are arguing that there’s nothing Starmer should be saying and doing of substance anyway.
Outflanked on all sides, uncharismatic in style or substance, dropping his pledges and Labour values at every turn, abstaining or voting through dodgy legislation, beholden to large donors, turning allies into enemies, ducking internal party democracy flaws, sweeping things like Labour leaks and islamophobia under the carpet, and doubling down on the factionalism since taking over. None of that’s coming from the outside or being forced on him – these are all choices made by him and the leadership of the party.
If this is your idea of doing well or even OK then things are going to get a lot worse for him and Labour. [Post edited 2 Mar 2021 12:07]
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Pure gold |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:42 - Mar 2 with 1577 views | chicoazul |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:33 - Mar 2 by Herbivore |
Replace Starmer with Corbyn and this could have been written by someone like Lowhouse 18 months or so ago. |
It’s almost as ifLabour are deeply unpopular whoever is in charge and their policy of trying to face every direction at once is useless. |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:53 - Mar 2 with 1559 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:33 - Mar 2 by Herbivore |
Replace Starmer with Corbyn and this could have been written by someone like Lowhouse 18 months or so ago. |
How exactly? This is stuff that Starmer and/or his advisers have chosen to do. This stuff isn’t being amplified or made-up by the media – in fact, when the media aren’t supporting these choices they’re being studiously ignored.
He’s been given a free ride and a series of open goals and yet he’s still fumbling around for a point and slipping backwards. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:54 - Mar 2 with 1557 views | pointofblue |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:42 - Mar 2 by chicoazul |
It’s almost as ifLabour are deeply unpopular whoever is in charge and their policy of trying to face every direction at once is useless. |
This is 5e big issue for me - they need to stop trying to be all things to all people. Choose a direction and stick to it. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:58 - Mar 2 with 1546 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:37 - Mar 2 by itfcjoe |
Pure gold |
Go on then. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:00 - Mar 2 with 1536 views | itfcjoe |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 12:58 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
Go on then. |
The same people in his party who hate him are the same as the left in USA who hated Biden still.
Just a massive re-write of history now Biden has won, he never won over the far left, no one ever can. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:10 - Mar 2 with 1519 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:00 - Mar 2 by itfcjoe |
The same people in his party who hate him are the same as the left in USA who hated Biden still.
Just a massive re-write of history now Biden has won, he never won over the far left, no one ever can. |
They’re not natural supporters and allies definitely. But that’s fair enough given how the Establishment Democrats have been a part of the problem for so long. And why even a disingenuous and dangerous fool like Trump can seem like the solution to so many.
But the fact remains that Biden didn’t try to purge the left. He built a coalition with them during the campaign and he’s even maintaining that coalition in government so far.
Contrast that with the Labour right who have gone out of their way to punch left and disenfranchise the membership including a majority of its grassroots activists and volunteers. They’ve learnt nothing from Biden and the key states. Because this is a Labour party that’s not as serious about getting elected and governing so much as protecting their position and careers in the soft Establishment.
And of course none of this matters to the type of Labour supporters and prospective voters who essentially want the status quo maintained anyway. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:14 - Mar 2 with 1514 views | itfcjoe |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:10 - Mar 2 by Darth_Koont |
They’re not natural supporters and allies definitely. But that’s fair enough given how the Establishment Democrats have been a part of the problem for so long. And why even a disingenuous and dangerous fool like Trump can seem like the solution to so many.
But the fact remains that Biden didn’t try to purge the left. He built a coalition with them during the campaign and he’s even maintaining that coalition in government so far.
Contrast that with the Labour right who have gone out of their way to punch left and disenfranchise the membership including a majority of its grassroots activists and volunteers. They’ve learnt nothing from Biden and the key states. Because this is a Labour party that’s not as serious about getting elected and governing so much as protecting their position and careers in the soft Establishment.
And of course none of this matters to the type of Labour supporters and prospective voters who essentially want the status quo maintained anyway. |
Biden was campaigning to be the President, Starmer isn't (to be PM) yet.
Biden was 'flag shagging' but that's ok because he's American apparently
Biden didn't increase in the polls, whereas Starmer has, but that doesn't matter either
Anything that disagrees with your assessment is brushed over.
You make out there is a full scale Labour rebellion, 3 MPs disagree with the corporation tax position, but they didn't show up to the PLP last night. | |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:17 - Mar 2 with 1507 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 23:28 - Mar 1 by Darth_Koont |
But Starmer’s losing support in the wider population even before vaccination ... and critically has been actively happy to lose support in his own party and his own power base.
If you were talking about treading water and waiting for the right opportunity then why has he been taking the wrong opportunities so far?
I think you, Steve and many others have a very narrow and conventional view of this stuff (IMO of course) so I take your informal poll with a pinch of salt. It’s the same nodding along sagely to the status quo and a narrow media view that has brought us amongst other things growing inequality, rising racism and xenophobia, low productivity, Scottish independence, environmental lassitude, a younger generation that can barely get a foot on any sort of rung, Brexit and a Boris Johnson government so I’m more than happy to be on the “wrong” side here. |
Your first sentence is just a lie. Labour were consistently closing in the polling until December when the vaccination rollout began. The Tories then reopened a small gap which then grew a bit further in Jan when the levels of vaccination ramped up in comparison to other countries and the EU squabble happened, so not sure why you’re pretending otherwise |  |
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| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:23 - Mar 2 with 1492 views | Darth_Koont |
| Are Labour under Starmer the worst-ever major political party? on 13:14 - Mar 2 by itfcjoe |
Biden was campaigning to be the President, Starmer isn't (to be PM) yet.
Biden was 'flag shagging' but that's ok because he's American apparently
Biden didn't increase in the polls, whereas Starmer has, but that doesn't matter either
Anything that disagrees with your assessment is brushed over.
You make out there is a full scale Labour rebellion, 3 MPs disagree with the corporation tax position, but they didn't show up to the PLP last night. |
Where did I claim there’s a “full scale Labour rebellion”? Especially one involving MPs or indeed any real pressure from the media?
You misrepresent my other points too. But I’ve answered them during the thread.
I know you won’t take a closer look at what’s going on and how Starmer and Labour aren’t cutting through. Or that what is cutting through is making him and Labour less and less popular. But that’s not going to happen is it? | |
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