| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. 10:13 - Feb 26 with 6519 views | WD19 |
At western media types who seem to be increasingly suggesting that the Ukrainians are only ‘going to make things worse for themselves’ by resisting…..and suggestion ‘all this could be sorted and we could go back to normal’ and ‘avoid the deaths of innocent civilians’ if the Ukrainians would just agree to demilitarise and become neutral.
I know we all want it to go away, but giving a bully what he wants for a quiet life never quite works out how you hope in the long run. Some in the west …..having wooed them away from Russias sphere of influence…..are now letting Ukraine down badly. |  | | |  |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 12:47 - Feb 26 with 2300 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
A very good point that I had not thought of and very well made.
I guess there is an argument of desperate measures in desperate times but this is a good point. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 12:49 - Feb 26 with 2298 views | Lord_Lucan |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 12:46 - Feb 26 by Lord_Lucan |
I was thinking this morning ,if we had to arm civilians in UK with machine guns, how many would eventually be handed back or kept. |
Tottenham away could be risky. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 12:53 - Feb 26 with 2280 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 12:49 - Feb 26 by Lord_Lucan |
Tottenham away could be risky. |
Riskier than Millwall. "Nobody likes us and we don't care ... and we all have machine guns to prove it too!" | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:12 - Feb 26 with 2227 views | bluelagos |
Of course the whole thing is way more complicated than a simple goodies v baddies narrative.
But be clear - whatever historic injustices there have been, whatever fears or otherwise Russia has and whatever dishonesty/deceit has occurred in the past 30 years (per your link) - none of that is in any way a justification for Russia invading another country and the inevitable loss of life and humanitarian catastrophe that will follow.
Anyone seeking to explain away Russian aggression as a reaction to previous Western policies or historic wars is pretty close to being an apologist for Putin's murderous actions.
Putin's actions are unjustifyable and the position/argument of "Yeah but Nato" of some people on the far left is pretty disgusting to be honest.
By contrast - it's welcome to see Bernie Sanders taking a principled stance. Shame some on the far left in Britain don't share his principles.
|  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:37 - Feb 26 with 2192 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:12 - Feb 26 by bluelagos |
Of course the whole thing is way more complicated than a simple goodies v baddies narrative.
But be clear - whatever historic injustices there have been, whatever fears or otherwise Russia has and whatever dishonesty/deceit has occurred in the past 30 years (per your link) - none of that is in any way a justification for Russia invading another country and the inevitable loss of life and humanitarian catastrophe that will follow.
Anyone seeking to explain away Russian aggression as a reaction to previous Western policies or historic wars is pretty close to being an apologist for Putin's murderous actions.
Putin's actions are unjustifyable and the position/argument of "Yeah but Nato" of some people on the far left is pretty disgusting to be honest.
By contrast - it's welcome to see Bernie Sanders taking a principled stance. Shame some on the far left in Britain don't share his principles.
|
You are totally right - a lot of people are using these historical accounts to justify Putin's actions. But it doesn't follow that everyone is. Having the mentality that any peaceful solution - no matter how compromising - is preferable to war, does not mean you are apologising for the enemy.
There is no justification for what Putin is doing. He is a lunatic and a bully, but unfortunately for us, a very powerful one. Standing up to a bully should always be the default option, but if said bully is imminently threatening the life of a loved one, then logic and principle can go out of the window. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:42 - Feb 26 with 2175 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:37 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
You are totally right - a lot of people are using these historical accounts to justify Putin's actions. But it doesn't follow that everyone is. Having the mentality that any peaceful solution - no matter how compromising - is preferable to war, does not mean you are apologising for the enemy.
There is no justification for what Putin is doing. He is a lunatic and a bully, but unfortunately for us, a very powerful one. Standing up to a bully should always be the default option, but if said bully is imminently threatening the life of a loved one, then logic and principle can go out of the window. |
Given that Ukraine is not under our control, what would your peaceful solution be? Would this extend to every country that Putin chooses to enter or just the Ukraine? It does look like the west is going to resist taking any military action and that is understandable. So you are actually arguing for the course of action currently being taken?
As much as you maintain that you oppose what Putin is doing, I presume you can see why much of what you have posted in the past 3 days is seen as an apology for him? [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 13:48]
| |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:52 - Feb 26 with 2157 views | Churchman |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:37 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
You are totally right - a lot of people are using these historical accounts to justify Putin's actions. But it doesn't follow that everyone is. Having the mentality that any peaceful solution - no matter how compromising - is preferable to war, does not mean you are apologising for the enemy.
There is no justification for what Putin is doing. He is a lunatic and a bully, but unfortunately for us, a very powerful one. Standing up to a bully should always be the default option, but if said bully is imminently threatening the life of a loved one, then logic and principle can go out of the window. |
Actually, standing up to a piece of work like Putin is the only option. If you don’t, somebody else will have to eventually. It cannot just be left to the likes of the extraordinarily brave lady in the attached.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2022/feb/25/ukrainian-woman-sunflower-se |  | | |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:57 - Feb 26 with 2152 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:42 - Feb 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Given that Ukraine is not under our control, what would your peaceful solution be? Would this extend to every country that Putin chooses to enter or just the Ukraine? It does look like the west is going to resist taking any military action and that is understandable. So you are actually arguing for the course of action currently being taken?
As much as you maintain that you oppose what Putin is doing, I presume you can see why much of what you have posted in the past 3 days is seen as an apology for him? [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 13:48]
|
The reason why the last discussion went on for so long was that I disagreed passionately that I was apologising for Putin, in the same way that I believe Kohl, Herd, Thatcher, Major, Mitterand, Baker et al. weren't apologising for Gorbachev in 1991 when they negotiated the unification of Germany. A willingness to negotiate with the enemy doesn't mean you agree with them.
My solution is to give Putin the assurance that Ukraine won't join NATO. Nothing more than that. It's a crap situation to be in, but that is unfortunately the compromise. This is what he's been asking for, and judging by his apparent willingness to enter into discussions with Zelenskyy, it seems he still does. I know he also wants demilitarisation of the Baltic states, but I believe that's a bluff. If making the assurance works, then war is averted. If it doesn't, and Putin then finds other excuses to invade other countries, then the assurance is torn up and, I imagine, a much more serious conflict is inevitable. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 14:01]
| |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:57 - Feb 26 with 2149 views | jeera |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:37 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
You are totally right - a lot of people are using these historical accounts to justify Putin's actions. But it doesn't follow that everyone is. Having the mentality that any peaceful solution - no matter how compromising - is preferable to war, does not mean you are apologising for the enemy.
There is no justification for what Putin is doing. He is a lunatic and a bully, but unfortunately for us, a very powerful one. Standing up to a bully should always be the default option, but if said bully is imminently threatening the life of a loved one, then logic and principle can go out of the window. |
No, that doesn't make any sense at all.
Of course any war could be avoided if the aggressor's demands are met.
You could apply that 'logic' to any war ever.
Whilst we're at it, do me a favour and transfer your bank account's balance across to me please, there's a good chap. It would save any arguments about who really owns the money if you just comply now. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:03 - Feb 26 with 2136 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:57 - Feb 26 by jeera |
No, that doesn't make any sense at all.
Of course any war could be avoided if the aggressor's demands are met.
You could apply that 'logic' to any war ever.
Whilst we're at it, do me a favour and transfer your bank account's balance across to me please, there's a good chap. It would save any arguments about who really owns the money if you just comply now. |
So if someone kidnapped your loved one and told you they would kill them if you don't give them £1m, you'd ignore them out of principle? | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:05 - Feb 26 with 2126 views | jeera |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:03 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
So if someone kidnapped your loved one and told you they would kill them if you don't give them £1m, you'd ignore them out of principle? |
You're stretching there pal.
A whole country has been invaded and you're still making excuses, blaming the victims for not complying.
Now, about my money. | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:07 - Feb 26 with 2117 views | Wacko |
I wholeheartedly support Ukrainian efforts to resist occupation and very much admire this woman's actions.
On a geopolitical level, it's not as simple | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:07 - Feb 26 with 2115 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 13:57 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
The reason why the last discussion went on for so long was that I disagreed passionately that I was apologising for Putin, in the same way that I believe Kohl, Herd, Thatcher, Major, Mitterand, Baker et al. weren't apologising for Gorbachev in 1991 when they negotiated the unification of Germany. A willingness to negotiate with the enemy doesn't mean you agree with them.
My solution is to give Putin the assurance that Ukraine won't join NATO. Nothing more than that. It's a crap situation to be in, but that is unfortunately the compromise. This is what he's been asking for, and judging by his apparent willingness to enter into discussions with Zelenskyy, it seems he still does. I know he also wants demilitarisation of the Baltic states, but I believe that's a bluff. If making the assurance works, then war is averted. If it doesn't, and Putin then finds other excuses to invade other countries, then the assurance is torn up and, I imagine, a much more serious conflict is inevitable. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 14:01]
|
What makes you think that anyone is unwilling to negotiate with Putin?
And what similarity at all do you think this has with the reunification of Germany?
The joining NATO argument is simply an excuse. There has been no negotiation with Putin over this and Ukraine are not about to join either. | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:10 - Feb 26 with 2111 views | Guthrum |
The problem with hurridly armed civilians is that they lack any of the training to operate in such an extremely high-stress environment. They haven't been taught to identify friend from foe (especially important in a conflict where both sides are using the same equipment and vehicles). Nor how to coordinate and work as tactical units. Nor even how to shoot properly (e.g. not blazing off all their ammo shooting too high to hit anything). Instincts on how to move and take cover have not been instilled.
There are logistical issues. When their rifle's magazine is empty, where do they get more ammo from? Are they inadvertantly diverting resources away from more effective troops?
There is a big danger of quickly getting killed by trained enemies or even of shooting their own side. With the best will in the world, can they stand up to a major attack backed by tanks and artillery, or will the confusion and terror get the better of them?
The most effective way to use them is as guards in rear areas, relieving trained soldiers to go to the front line. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:13 - Feb 26 with 2111 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:07 - Feb 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
What makes you think that anyone is unwilling to negotiate with Putin?
And what similarity at all do you think this has with the reunification of Germany?
The joining NATO argument is simply an excuse. There has been no negotiation with Putin over this and Ukraine are not about to join either. |
What makes you think that anyone is unwilling to negotiate with Putin?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-ukraine-tensions-putin-united-states-nato-se
Ukraine are now willing to negotiate, hopefully that will happen
And what similarity at all do you think this has with the reunification of Germany?
It's intrinsically linked. Did you read what I posted? | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:14 - Feb 26 with 2107 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:05 - Feb 26 by jeera |
You're stretching there pal.
A whole country has been invaded and you're still making excuses, blaming the victims for not complying.
Now, about my money. |
I'm not making any excuses or blaming* anyone. I want an end to any conflict
*actually I blamed Putin in a previous post. There's no justification for his actions [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 14:15]
| |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:16 - Feb 26 with 2095 views | Churchman |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:14 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
I'm not making any excuses or blaming* anyone. I want an end to any conflict
*actually I blamed Putin in a previous post. There's no justification for his actions [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 14:15]
|
We all want that. But it cannot be at any costs. | | | |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:22 - Feb 26 with 2089 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:16 - Feb 26 by Churchman |
We all want that. But it cannot be at any costs. |
Well this is why it's so complicated, and things go into the realm of the hypothetical. In my opinion not being able to join NATO isn't a massive sacrifice. A lot of countries manage without membership. But this is for another debate another time. Enjoy the game! | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:40 - Feb 26 with 2073 views | cbower |
I can see the following scenario:
EU / UN or some other international grouping will set up "peace" talks. Putin will agree to a ceasefire. His conditions will involve an official land grab of the territories in Eastern Ukraine to include international recognition of these new borders. Ukraine will resist but a la Czechoslovakia in the late 1930s with Hitler, the international community will sell Ukraine down the river for the sake of "peace" by which they really mean a return to the accepted flow of cash and resources on the international financial markets. It all comes down to economics for world leaders. Always has, always will. |  |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:52 - Feb 26 with 2055 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
The article states that the US had said what grounds they were willing to negotiate on - they were willing to talk. Russia, didn't like them not agreeing so have invaded. There is one aggressor here.
Put it this way, Jeera is prepared to talk to you about transferring the funds from your account. However, if you don't transfer them to him first, the discussions are off the table and he will come and kill you and take the money from you anyway. Why haven't you transferred your money already? What do you mean you might call the police over this threat? They aren't interested (and you are making apologies for that disinterest). | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 15:18 - Feb 26 with 2009 views | Wacko |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:52 - Feb 26 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The article states that the US had said what grounds they were willing to negotiate on - they were willing to talk. Russia, didn't like them not agreeing so have invaded. There is one aggressor here.
Put it this way, Jeera is prepared to talk to you about transferring the funds from your account. However, if you don't transfer them to him first, the discussions are off the table and he will come and kill you and take the money from you anyway. Why haven't you transferred your money already? What do you mean you might call the police over this threat? They aren't interested (and you are making apologies for that disinterest). |
I don't think your analogy is correct because as far as I know Jeera is not an incredibly powerful despotic leader!
I think a better one is: you're Scum struggling against relegation. You're due to play Ipswich, currently the best team in the league, who offer you a 1-0 defeat before the game. Do you take it, helping your goal difference out in relation to others around you, or do you go toe-to-toe with them in the (unlikely) hope of beating them? Neither decision results in you putting on a Town shirt and actively scoring against your own team (even though in this case it would be preferable ;) )
The German unification treaty and the (albeit verbal) assurances that were made happened at a time when the Soviet Union had weakened. Yet those leading the discussions still felt this was the best course of action in order to remove Soviet troops from Germany. We're now faced with a much stronger Russia who are occupying another country - what do we do? | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 15:32 - Feb 26 with 1983 views | Juggsy |
Not quite sure what you expect the West to do in all honestly. Putin looking pretty deranged currently and has a Nuclear deterrent and all that. |  | | |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 17:43 - Feb 26 with 1921 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Reports suggesting it’s not going very well for Russia. Putin probably had delusions of Ukrainians welcoming him with open arms.
I forecast a 300pc rise in Russian generals having balcony accidents. | | | |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 17:46 - Feb 26 with 1909 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 17:43 - Feb 26 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Reports suggesting it’s not going very well for Russia. Putin probably had delusions of Ukrainians welcoming him with open arms.
I forecast a 300pc rise in Russian generals having balcony accidents. |
Or maybe if there are that sort of proportion of them opposing him, it will be Putin who has the accident. | |
| |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 18:03 - Feb 26 with 1865 views | Churchman |
| I am starting to get quite annoyed…. on 14:22 - Feb 26 by Wacko |
Well this is why it's so complicated, and things go into the realm of the hypothetical. In my opinion not being able to join NATO isn't a massive sacrifice. A lot of countries manage without membership. But this is for another debate another time. Enjoy the game! |
The ability of a sovereign country to choose what it does and align with whoever it wishes is everything. If it cannot do that, it’s a puppet state. It’s nothing. A vassal.
For me it’s crystal clear. The scumbag Putins of this world have a completely different view. 180 degrees. There’s no shades of freedom. You have it or you don’t. If you don’t it’s worth fighting for. [Post edited 26 Feb 2022 18:14]
| | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
