| Dons missing out on the play off final. 10:35 - May 10 with 3625 views | OriginalMarkyP |
I know the temptation is to watch these games, rub your head and think how did all these teams finish above us? We can play these off the park. Roll on next season and HMS Piss the League.
BUT...
It just isn't that simple. There is a reason why it's the more muscular, sh1thousey teams that are challenging for promotion every season we've been in this godforsaken division. With lax refs and poor pitches, you get away with the thug football that you wouldn't higher up. And it levels the playing field. We really do need to be able to compete in the fight as well as the ballet (if you get what I mean). Otherwise we'll get bullied off the park too many times to make the sublime moments count. And I think that's the really difficult winning formula we're always going to have to find. Pretty football, backed up by brawn as well as brains.
And Morsy on his own is not enough to do that. Doesn't matter who is playing up top if we get bullied off the park. |  |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 20:01 - May 10 with 804 views | jayessess |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 17:07 - May 10 by Eireannach_gorm |
What you are talking about is not sh1thousery, they are just different styles of play. When teams have got a bit physical or used gamesmanship we have been unable to counter. We are not smart as a team and seem to consistently fall for the sucker punch. Morsy's post match ban being a perfect example of this ( prod him enough and he will be booked ).
We need to head off these issues before they become a problem. I would suggest we meet fire with fire and if we need to ( like Madrid did ) kill the game when we are ahead. Its not all about pretty football and when the occasion requires, you have to get down and dirty. Nice football and game management are not mutually exclusive |
There's a lot of stuff mixed in here, all of it alluding to a sort of intangible "softness" for which there isn't much evidence but seems to be the go to for lots of Ipswich fans.
Like I say, there was no discernible pattern where we struggled more against "physical teams" this season.
There was gamesmanship in games that we dropped points in because... every single team in this league, including us, engages in gamesmanship! We played keep ball and wasted time at Doncaster, Oxford, Gillingham, Wycombe and Plymouth, we just don't notice because it's us doing it.
Not sure how a retrospective red card counts as "falling for a sucker punch". Didn't help Accrington much, did it!
We need to "kill the game when we are ahead" is just obvious, isn't it? It's what all football teams want to do. It's bit a harder to do than just deciding to be a bit more "streetwise". |  |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:21 - May 11 with 750 views | Hullblue |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 17:40 - May 10 by OriginalMarkyP |
I think you'll find what I'm talking about is not us playing thug football it's about playing good football and yet being able to counter the teams who overwhelm us physically (and sometimes just through tactical sh1thousery).
That's not the English Football Fans' answer to everything either. Have you watched much Italian football? Or even Spanish football? At the highest level those teams have incredible players but they are tactically canny and quite content to be physical when required. Mateo Materazzi? Sergio Ramos? Giorgio Chiellini?
I think you'll find that these players would be more than happy to bend the rules to win. To pull shirts. To stamp on feet. To trash talk. To cut you off at the knees. Yet they are all world class continental players. And they are all winners. And light years ahead of any league one player in ability.
To say 'this is English football fans' answer for absolutely everything' is just dumb. |
I never said you were talking about us playing 'thug football.'
I also never said that Italian and Spanish teams aren't physical or capable of the dark arts.
What I am saying is your opinion in the original post is the one I hear from English football fans about their team more than any other. It's either that or something about a lack of passion and desire.
If you could produce one bit of evidence that we got 'bullied off the park' last season I'd be interested to see it. Until then, I'll be more interested in why we failed to create and take enough chances towards the end of the season.
It's so easy to just say oh we weren't physical enough (which is why it's such a common explanation). It takes a bit more effort to sit there and think about, for instance, whether Celina and Chaplin compliment each other as number 10s.
I did also say it was nothing personal - your last comment suggests you missed that bit. |  |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 14:02 - May 11 with 700 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:21 - May 11 by Hullblue |
I never said you were talking about us playing 'thug football.'
I also never said that Italian and Spanish teams aren't physical or capable of the dark arts.
What I am saying is your opinion in the original post is the one I hear from English football fans about their team more than any other. It's either that or something about a lack of passion and desire.
If you could produce one bit of evidence that we got 'bullied off the park' last season I'd be interested to see it. Until then, I'll be more interested in why we failed to create and take enough chances towards the end of the season.
It's so easy to just say oh we weren't physical enough (which is why it's such a common explanation). It takes a bit more effort to sit there and think about, for instance, whether Celina and Chaplin compliment each other as number 10s.
I did also say it was nothing personal - your last comment suggests you missed that bit. |
Ipswich 0 Rotherham 2.
Their own players said they came with with a plan to strangle us off the park and that's exactly what they did.
Here's what Paul Warne had to say after the match,
“I'm really proud of my group. I say how much I love my players all the time, but they're great. They take on information and they work so hard out of possession of the ball.
“We sort of suffocated Ipswich really because of our work ethic and we got two good goals, and on another night we could have had another couple.
“As away performances go, I'm really pleased. They're a really good team and Cooky is a brilliant manager who will have success here no doubt, but tonight he was against a really good Rotherham side who managed the game really well."
They bullied us off the park. I remember. I watched it.
One piece of evidence is what you asked for. There you go. [Post edited 11 May 2022 14:04]
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 14:17 - May 11 with 687 views | jayessess |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 14:02 - May 11 by OriginalMarkyP |
Ipswich 0 Rotherham 2.
Their own players said they came with with a plan to strangle us off the park and that's exactly what they did.
Here's what Paul Warne had to say after the match,
“I'm really proud of my group. I say how much I love my players all the time, but they're great. They take on information and they work so hard out of possession of the ball.
“We sort of suffocated Ipswich really because of our work ethic and we got two good goals, and on another night we could have had another couple.
“As away performances go, I'm really pleased. They're a really good team and Cooky is a brilliant manager who will have success here no doubt, but tonight he was against a really good Rotherham side who managed the game really well."
They bullied us off the park. I remember. I watched it.
One piece of evidence is what you asked for. There you go. [Post edited 11 May 2022 14:04]
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I was there too and Rotherham bossed the game because they were tactically superior. They identified all our natural out balls and set out to press in numbers when we tried to use them. The only time we managed to play through them was a couple of times where individual skill by Celina beat their press.
For a manager, looking at that and saying "we need to be tougher so we aren't bullied!" is pointless. You need to work out why your out balls are getting cut off, how you can generate space, how you can bypass their press. Having tougher guys out there wouldn't have done anything that night. Toughness doesn't help you when you've got 2 tacklers on you in seconds, every time you get the ball.
In 180 minutes of football we found a way through Rotherham for a grand total of 23 minutes. The 23 minutes where it was 2 on 2 in midfield, rather than 2 on 3. [Post edited 11 May 2022 14:18]
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 14:57 - May 11 with 659 views | Hullblue |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 14:17 - May 11 by jayessess |
I was there too and Rotherham bossed the game because they were tactically superior. They identified all our natural out balls and set out to press in numbers when we tried to use them. The only time we managed to play through them was a couple of times where individual skill by Celina beat their press.
For a manager, looking at that and saying "we need to be tougher so we aren't bullied!" is pointless. You need to work out why your out balls are getting cut off, how you can generate space, how you can bypass their press. Having tougher guys out there wouldn't have done anything that night. Toughness doesn't help you when you've got 2 tacklers on you in seconds, every time you get the ball.
In 180 minutes of football we found a way through Rotherham for a grand total of 23 minutes. The 23 minutes where it was 2 on 2 in midfield, rather than 2 on 3. [Post edited 11 May 2022 14:18]
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This.
It's also notable that the Rotherham manager mentions the players 'taking information on' which suggests he thinks it's primarily a tactical thing. Edit: he also talks about working hard twice, which is another bare minimum, but doesn't say anything about them bullying us.
It's similar to the Cheltenham away game where Tozer kept lobbing long throws into the box and we ended up losing.
The answer isn't buying more big defenders (which I think we did after that game - buying Burgess who didn't really improve us) - the answer is keeping the ball better and defending higher up the pitch so we don't expose ourselves to stuff like that so often.
That's exactly what McKenna did and our defensive record became much better after that. He also talked a lot about not getting drawn into the type of game that the opposition usually want against us - scrappy, physical etc - and making sure we play our own game. Again, this contradicts the OP.
I'm obviously not saying we don't need any physical presence or any ability in the dark arts, but those are bare minimums. And we must have reached them in the second half of last season because we conceded so few goals - if teams were really bullying us you'd think they'd have decided to bully the ball into the net a few more times. (Second edit for a typo). [Post edited 11 May 2022 15:01]
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 15:40 - May 11 with 616 views | BlueBlood90 |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:36 - May 10 by Dyland |
We didn't get bullied off the park at all last season. We were simply sh1te too often under Cook, and didn't put away enough chances under McK. Is this a new myth that we were soft? We weren't. The team before had a softer underbelly for sure. |
Due to the amount of late goals we conceded I think it's very fair to suggest we were mentally soft last season. It wasn't one or two unlucky games it happened regularly with both Cook and McKenna in charge. That's what I think we need to change next year. Get a couple of experienced players in with the know-how to see games out. |  |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 17:12 - May 11 with 559 views | jayessess |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 15:40 - May 11 by BlueBlood90 |
Due to the amount of late goals we conceded I think it's very fair to suggest we were mentally soft last season. It wasn't one or two unlucky games it happened regularly with both Cook and McKenna in charge. That's what I think we need to change next year. Get a couple of experienced players in with the know-how to see games out. |
They aren't an inexperienced group though, are they? This year we gave fewer minutes to U23s than all but 4 teams and most of those minutes went to Woolfenden, who has 142 league appearances under his belt.
Meanwhile, Sunderland, who during the run in took a dozen points or so from late winners had one of the youngest squads in the league.
Personally, I hope McKenna is prioritising building on leads, so we aren't routinely dependent on "seeing games out", rather than getting wise old heads in to offer magic protection against late equalisers. | |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 18:26 - May 11 with 526 views | Dennyx4 |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 17:12 - May 11 by jayessess |
They aren't an inexperienced group though, are they? This year we gave fewer minutes to U23s than all but 4 teams and most of those minutes went to Woolfenden, who has 142 league appearances under his belt.
Meanwhile, Sunderland, who during the run in took a dozen points or so from late winners had one of the youngest squads in the league.
Personally, I hope McKenna is prioritising building on leads, so we aren't routinely dependent on "seeing games out", rather than getting wise old heads in to offer magic protection against late equalisers. |
I believe experience is a key ingredient that we don't necessarily have enough of.
I saw a stat during the Wycombe v MK game, which stated the average age of teams across the season in League One. Interestingly the top three teams with the oldest teams were, Wigan, Sheff Wed & Wycombe.
Not sure it is a coincidence that all three made the top six. Admittedly MK was 4th or 5th bottom. (Very young team in comparison). |  | | |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 10:50 - May 12 with 454 views | BlueBlood90 |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 17:12 - May 11 by jayessess |
They aren't an inexperienced group though, are they? This year we gave fewer minutes to U23s than all but 4 teams and most of those minutes went to Woolfenden, who has 142 league appearances under his belt.
Meanwhile, Sunderland, who during the run in took a dozen points or so from late winners had one of the youngest squads in the league.
Personally, I hope McKenna is prioritising building on leads, so we aren't routinely dependent on "seeing games out", rather than getting wise old heads in to offer magic protection against late equalisers. |
Other than Sam Morsy what players would you consider to be leaders in our squad? Everyone would like to simply score an extra goal or two and kill games off but that's not always possible and that's when you rely on experienced leaders to see games out and at present I don't think we don't have anything like enough players who can do that. | |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:12 - May 12 with 444 views | jayessess |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 10:50 - May 12 by BlueBlood90 |
Other than Sam Morsy what players would you consider to be leaders in our squad? Everyone would like to simply score an extra goal or two and kill games off but that's not always possible and that's when you rely on experienced leaders to see games out and at present I don't think we don't have anything like enough players who can do that. |
Difficult to quantify because it's not like you get much insight into what they're saying on and off the pitch, but... Janoi Donacien, George Edmundson, Sone Aluko, Conor Chaplin and Macauley Bonne all strike me as pretty determined characters with good leadership attributes.
But again, I remain to be convinced that more experience directly translates into more durability. We've had teams in the past full of experienced pros who folded like laundry. Not least the 2020-21 squad!
Composure, tactics, discipline, skill, these are what help you get over the line. | |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:24 - May 12 with 431 views | clive_baker |
Yet we did the double over Wycombe this season while failing to beat anyone else in the top 6. |  |
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:26 - May 12 with 429 views | Hullblue |
| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 10:50 - May 12 by BlueBlood90 |
Other than Sam Morsy what players would you consider to be leaders in our squad? Everyone would like to simply score an extra goal or two and kill games off but that's not always possible and that's when you rely on experienced leaders to see games out and at present I don't think we don't have anything like enough players who can do that. |
At a guess, I'd say Walton, Janoi, Edmundson, Evans and Norwood (granted he's leaving now). WIth Morsy as well that's not bad, is it?
Looking back at the late goals we conceded towards the end of the season - Shrewsbury was a long-range effort after Thompson lost a header wasn't it? Not too sure what extra leadership could have done about that.
The Crewe one was wind-assisted - maybe another leader might have demanded that Walton play it short rather than kicking into the wind, but that seems like a tactical thing to me as much as anything.
I can't remember the Wigan goal but they're one of the best teams in the league, so they're pretty likely to score at any time.
Oxford was a corner - that's probably the one you could argue most convincingly was leadership related. Maybe someone reminding Burgess to concentrate a bit more would have helped. But we should have scored more than 1 in that game - that's the real problem for me.
We can't expect to concede many less than we did in the second half of the season, regardless of what time the goals went it. We can (and should, if we want to go up) expect to score more. That's not a leadership problem, that's a tactical and technical problem. [Post edited 12 May 2022 11:29]
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| Dons missing out on the play off final. on 11:48 - May 12 with 417 views | Bluroo |
Yeh, another vote to remain the Ipswich way...
McKennaball was operating at play off form since he took over.
Had we a decent striker who tucked away a few of the numerous clear cut chances we created, we could have taken more points of the likes of Morecombe, Cheltenham, Oxford, Dons and Shrews for example - which would have had us operating at auto form.
So the options are buy a striker or change the entire culture of the club? I know what I think would be more effective. And want to watch.
I'm entirely confident that with a summer transfer window and a pre-season to further embed the vision into the squad, Town will come out of the blocks firing next season and our "style" will be more than sufficient to get out of this league. I know that it's unfashionable to beleive after 20 years of hurt, but I think our ducks are finally in a row.
Last season we took 6 points of shysterhousers Wycombe. We only took 3 points of shysterhousers Accrington and no points of virtually non-shysterhousing Bolton. The principle reason for this is how well or badly we played and how many chances we did or didn't create and score.
It's got nothing to do with how much we cheated and antagonised the opposition.
At the end of the day, we can't affect 500 or so games in the league we're not involved in, only the 46 we are, so it really doesn't matter what "style" other teams are playing most of the time. Let them cheat and kick lumps out of each other for all I care. For the 46 we're involved in, we need 90 points and we don't need to stoop to Accys level to achieve it.
And finally. perhaps one of the reasons a lot of teams promoted from League 1 struggle is they're going up on the basis of shysterhousery? Better to go up playing a brand of football that will be more effective, surely? |  | | |
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