| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:28 - Aug 2 with 1024 views | Lord_Lucan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:09 - Aug 2 by nrb1985 |
I'm a pragmatist and call things as I see them.
They are generating huge profits currently due to factors outside of their control. I don't think that's very controversial. |
I like a man who looks further into the depth of things and whilst I wouldn't be against a windfall tax I am certainly not for one.
Previous poster (might have been you) also mentioned that when Covid hit the price went below zero, this is true.
I think my problem though is that the government still funds these giants to mothball old sites and also to explore new sources. They should pay this themselves out of their profits. |  |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:36 - Aug 2 with 985 views | nrb1985 |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:13 - Aug 2 by pointofblue |
Hmm. Shame it isn’t passed on to the consumer. |
if you're talking about a wind fall tax I'm not against that tbh, given (as mentioned) profits aren't been driven by efficiency or innovation but by the oil price. |  | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:45 - Aug 2 with 965 views | nrb1985 |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:16 - Aug 2 by Dubtractor |
It's less that, more your focus on all the good things they are doing re investing (not much) in energy transition, or their publicly stated targets (which we know throughout the years don't necessarily mean too much). [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 11:20]
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Whatever you think about the good or bad they may be doing your original post was about current profits and I'm drawing your attention to the reasons why they are particularly high right now. Something I'm not sure you understood particularly well judging by the tone of your OP. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:45 - Aug 2 with 964 views | nrb1985 |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:16 - Aug 2 by Dubtractor |
It's less that, more your focus on all the good things they are doing re investing (not much) in energy transition, or their publicly stated targets (which we know throughout the years don't necessarily mean too much). [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 11:20]
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Whatever you think about the good or bad they may be doing your original post was about current profits and I'm drawing your attention to the reasons why they are particularly high right now. Something I'm not sure was understood particularly well judging by the tone of your OP. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:46 - Aug 2 with 951 views | chicoazul |
40% to the exchequer (pending the usual R and D and expenses tomfoolery)
Lots of divis for our pensions
I don’t consider myself a boot licker when it comes to these companies but their job is to make money. |  |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:52 - Aug 2 with 944 views | Dubtractor |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:45 - Aug 2 by nrb1985 |
Whatever you think about the good or bad they may be doing your original post was about current profits and I'm drawing your attention to the reasons why they are particularly high right now. Something I'm not sure you understood particularly well judging by the tone of your OP. |
Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring the reason I suggested you seemed like a fossil fuel industry apologist. You're all over this thread defending the industry, and even singing their praises. |  |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:56 - Aug 2 with 937 views | Parsley |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:45 - Aug 2 by nrb1985 |
Whatever you think about the good or bad they may be doing your original post was about current profits and I'm drawing your attention to the reasons why they are particularly high right now. Something I'm not sure was understood particularly well judging by the tone of your OP. |
I understand that energy prices are high but the vast profits being publicised right now feel obscene when people can't afford to heat their homes. It might be great for my pension (genuinely not sure, will have to look into it) but to be honest the fact that I might be warm and toasty in 40 years doesn't mean much to me right now. |  | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:59 - Aug 2 with 919 views | nrb1985 |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:52 - Aug 2 by Dubtractor |
Maybe I do, maybe I don't, but it seems like you're deliberately ignoring the reason I suggested you seemed like a fossil fuel industry apologist. You're all over this thread defending the industry, and even singing their praises. |
I think it's pretty clear you don't and even if I was a fossil fuel apologist that's not really got anything to do with your OP and why BP are making huge profits currently.
See also one of my other replies where I agree that some of these profits should be returned to consumers in a windfall tax. | | | |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:01 - Aug 2 with 911 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:56 - Aug 2 by Parsley |
I understand that energy prices are high but the vast profits being publicised right now feel obscene when people can't afford to heat their homes. It might be great for my pension (genuinely not sure, will have to look into it) but to be honest the fact that I might be warm and toasty in 40 years doesn't mean much to me right now. |
Given that most of the gas that heats our home profits the Norwegian government I suggest a Norwegian windfall tax. One Christmas tree a year simply isn’t good enough… | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:02 - Aug 2 with 907 views | nrb1985 |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:56 - Aug 2 by Parsley |
I understand that energy prices are high but the vast profits being publicised right now feel obscene when people can't afford to heat their homes. It might be great for my pension (genuinely not sure, will have to look into it) but to be honest the fact that I might be warm and toasty in 40 years doesn't mean much to me right now. |
They're being publicized because it's earnings season and they have to publicize them as a listed company. Like they have to do when profits are down as well.
If you have a FTSE 100 tracker in your pension (you almost certainly will) then BP and Shell shares doing well is good as they are two of the top 10 companies in the FTSE 100.
Totally agree with the rest of your post and as stated elsewhere, I'm in favor of a one off windfall tax. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:10 - Aug 2 with 883 views | Parsley |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:02 - Aug 2 by nrb1985 |
They're being publicized because it's earnings season and they have to publicize them as a listed company. Like they have to do when profits are down as well.
If you have a FTSE 100 tracker in your pension (you almost certainly will) then BP and Shell shares doing well is good as they are two of the top 10 companies in the FTSE 100.
Totally agree with the rest of your post and as stated elsewhere, I'm in favor of a one off windfall tax. |
The fact they are publicised is a good thing, as it's important that people know these details, just rubs a little salt in the wound.
Windfall taxes are fine but then it means that you're relying on the government to invest or distribute that money fairly. I'd prefer that there was a way of limiting prices as that would have the most direct benefit to people. There's a price cap on energy suppliers but that only has so much effect while energy companies can charge what they like. I doubt that this is possible but the whole system seems broken at the moment. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:13 - Aug 2 with 865 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 10:56 - Aug 2 by giant_stow |
Good quality debate - keep it coming please - I'll be reading!
My man Ambrose said the other day that Britain currently has huge new offshore wind farms in the pipeline (more than CHina and the most in the world apparently), so if we can just hang on in there and develop good storage... |
Indeed I’m just trying to add some non emotional context. The “big bad corporation” narrative is simplistic when most of the biggest carbon exporters are state owned
My personal view is they aren’t obscene profits when you take into consideration BP’s scale and underlying margin. Some of that will be reinvested and some will just be used as surplus capital to keep a corporate behemoth afloat. They should pay a windfall given how people are struggling. Even if shared out amongst the 30m households in the UK it wouldn’t make a dent in energy bills. I’ll probably get some stick for that but Tesla was just one example of a firm making more profit (despite Elon’s supposed environmental philanthropy). I think it’s something of a click bait headline.
I’m of the view that the reliance on oil and gas is the bigger issue and that governments have led us to this from profiting both directly and indirectly. I’ve always thought that nuclear was the future, alas governments never look beyond the 4/5 year electoral cycle. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:31 - Aug 2 with 822 views | DanTheMan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:13 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Indeed I’m just trying to add some non emotional context. The “big bad corporation” narrative is simplistic when most of the biggest carbon exporters are state owned
My personal view is they aren’t obscene profits when you take into consideration BP’s scale and underlying margin. Some of that will be reinvested and some will just be used as surplus capital to keep a corporate behemoth afloat. They should pay a windfall given how people are struggling. Even if shared out amongst the 30m households in the UK it wouldn’t make a dent in energy bills. I’ll probably get some stick for that but Tesla was just one example of a firm making more profit (despite Elon’s supposed environmental philanthropy). I think it’s something of a click bait headline.
I’m of the view that the reliance on oil and gas is the bigger issue and that governments have led us to this from profiting both directly and indirectly. I’ve always thought that nuclear was the future, alas governments never look beyond the 4/5 year electoral cycle. |
Elon doesn't care about the environment, it's just a convenient industry he can use to enrich himself personally.
How he tricked so many people is beyond me.
I will say though, BP, Shell, Exxon etc. are bad corporations. Genuinely. It's not simplistic to think so. They collectively delayed action on climate change despite knowing the dangers to increase their own profits. That is morally outrageous. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 12:32]
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:41 - Aug 2 with 784 views | chicoazul |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:31 - Aug 2 by DanTheMan |
Elon doesn't care about the environment, it's just a convenient industry he can use to enrich himself personally.
How he tricked so many people is beyond me.
I will say though, BP, Shell, Exxon etc. are bad corporations. Genuinely. It's not simplistic to think so. They collectively delayed action on climate change despite knowing the dangers to increase their own profits. That is morally outrageous. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 12:32]
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There are no good companies. Almost all super large listed commercial entities will act in bad faith in pursuit of profits to a lesser or greater extent. Every company you or I could care to mention will do something deleterious or opaque to pursue their goals. What’s missing is the will to tackle this and to force companies boards shareholders and investors to adjust to better reflect our societal goals, although this is slowly changing. | |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:57 - Aug 2 with 750 views | DanTheMan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:41 - Aug 2 by chicoazul |
There are no good companies. Almost all super large listed commercial entities will act in bad faith in pursuit of profits to a lesser or greater extent. Every company you or I could care to mention will do something deleterious or opaque to pursue their goals. What’s missing is the will to tackle this and to force companies boards shareholders and investors to adjust to better reflect our societal goals, although this is slowly changing. |
Oh I agree, but there are varying degrees of bad. What the energy industry has done (consciously) for me is so far beyond most other companies. | |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:00 - Aug 2 with 743 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:31 - Aug 2 by DanTheMan |
Elon doesn't care about the environment, it's just a convenient industry he can use to enrich himself personally.
How he tricked so many people is beyond me.
I will say though, BP, Shell, Exxon etc. are bad corporations. Genuinely. It's not simplistic to think so. They collectively delayed action on climate change despite knowing the dangers to increase their own profits. That is morally outrageous. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 12:32]
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I don’t disagree. Point being that the state owned firms are currently even worse. Equinor (Statoil) of progressive Norway in 2020 were spending just 2pc of annual capital on renewables and 95pc of energy production from oil and gas. Far lower than those firms you listed. I picked this as an example because we certainly should hold our standards higher than Venezuela, China, Middle East.
Additionally the Norwegian government recently approved artic exploration.
Can it be said then, that government can be no more trusted than corporations? How can we speed up the energy transition if governments don’t take the responsibility? We are doomed! | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:01 - Aug 2 with 742 views | longtimefan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 09:54 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
China and Europe have both been increasingly hoovering up gas as “clean energy” driving additional demand and therefore wholesale price.
As I posted the other day western oil companies are generally investing by around 15pc of their capital on renewables. However 2/3rds of reserves sit with state owned oil and gas firms. Those firms are only investing approx 5pc of capital in renewables and green energy. It’s not in their interest as fossil fuels provide precious income to their countries.
We are paying the price of successive governments having no long term vision. We should have gone big into nuclear years ago like the French. |
"We are paying the price of successive governments having no long term vision. We should have gone big into nuclear years ago like the French."
I got slated by a lecturer at Suffolk College in 1981 for writing a very pro nuclear energy essay. Still think I was ahead of the times  | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:03 - Aug 2 with 738 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:01 - Aug 2 by longtimefan |
"We are paying the price of successive governments having no long term vision. We should have gone big into nuclear years ago like the French."
I got slated by a lecturer at Suffolk College in 1981 for writing a very pro nuclear energy essay. Still think I was ahead of the times |
Out of interest, what were his objections? | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:09 - Aug 2 with 714 views | Dubtractor |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:00 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I don’t disagree. Point being that the state owned firms are currently even worse. Equinor (Statoil) of progressive Norway in 2020 were spending just 2pc of annual capital on renewables and 95pc of energy production from oil and gas. Far lower than those firms you listed. I picked this as an example because we certainly should hold our standards higher than Venezuela, China, Middle East.
Additionally the Norwegian government recently approved artic exploration.
Can it be said then, that government can be no more trusted than corporations? How can we speed up the energy transition if governments don’t take the responsibility? We are doomed! |
"We are doomed!"
Hard to disagree with that sentiment. In the not too distant future there will be history lessons looking at the human response to the unfolding environmental disaster of the last 50 years or so, and people will wonder why we not only failed to respond, but in some cases poured (literal) petrol onto the fire. | |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:10 - Aug 2 with 712 views | DanTheMan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:00 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I don’t disagree. Point being that the state owned firms are currently even worse. Equinor (Statoil) of progressive Norway in 2020 were spending just 2pc of annual capital on renewables and 95pc of energy production from oil and gas. Far lower than those firms you listed. I picked this as an example because we certainly should hold our standards higher than Venezuela, China, Middle East.
Additionally the Norwegian government recently approved artic exploration.
Can it be said then, that government can be no more trusted than corporations? How can we speed up the energy transition if governments don’t take the responsibility? We are doomed! |
I think 2pc is genuinely high from what I've read, which is damning in of itself. The article I linked earlier actually goes into their capital expenditure a bit more with some sources, although obviously they aren't overly transparent about what they are spending for the most part.
But on your overall point, whether it is companies or state owned operations, the industry as a whole is about as objectionable as is possible. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 13:10]
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:21 - Aug 2 with 677 views | longtimefan |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:03 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Out of interest, what were his objections? |
From what I recall it was mainly just a complete rejection of nuclear power in it's entirety. It was part of a general studies module, so it wasn't as though he was particularly qualified in the subject. I think it just the case that he was anti nuclear - pro CND. I remember complaining about the marking to the course tutor as I didn't consider it fair and reasoned. The tutor agreed and got the mark bumped up! | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:24 - Aug 2 with 666 views | jeera |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:31 - Aug 2 by DanTheMan |
Elon doesn't care about the environment, it's just a convenient industry he can use to enrich himself personally.
How he tricked so many people is beyond me.
I will say though, BP, Shell, Exxon etc. are bad corporations. Genuinely. It's not simplistic to think so. They collectively delayed action on climate change despite knowing the dangers to increase their own profits. That is morally outrageous. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 12:32]
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Esso went further than that of course what 'encouraging' Bush to not sign the Kyoto Protocol and hiring auditors to attack Greenpeace with the hope of finding dirt on them to shut them up.
Other companies have lines placed throughout Africa, having hired mercenaries to force villagers from their homes or be killed. An industry rife with corruption.
But we've been made reliant on their services, and then their profits for our pensions.
It's all wrapped up. |  |
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| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:33 - Aug 2 with 639 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 12:02 - Aug 2 by nrb1985 |
They're being publicized because it's earnings season and they have to publicize them as a listed company. Like they have to do when profits are down as well.
If you have a FTSE 100 tracker in your pension (you almost certainly will) then BP and Shell shares doing well is good as they are two of the top 10 companies in the FTSE 100.
Totally agree with the rest of your post and as stated elsewhere, I'm in favor of a one off windfall tax. |
You appreciate a windfall tax has already been introduced? It's not a one-off tax either, and spans multiple years for groups like BP. Gives them a tax rate of circa 65% in big parts of their business. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:34 - Aug 2 with 636 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:10 - Aug 2 by DanTheMan |
I think 2pc is genuinely high from what I've read, which is damning in of itself. The article I linked earlier actually goes into their capital expenditure a bit more with some sources, although obviously they aren't overly transparent about what they are spending for the most part.
But on your overall point, whether it is companies or state owned operations, the industry as a whole is about as objectionable as is possible. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 13:10]
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“I think 2pc is genuinely high from what I've read”.
According to the Economist the average for western oil companies is 15pc which is a magnitude higher. 5pc for state owned firms.
Of course none of which is enough but the fact that profit orientated firms are outpacing state owned is pretty damning. | | | |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 13:40 - Aug 2 with 627 views | NthQldITFC |
| More obscene profits for an energy company...... on 11:10 - Aug 2 by DanTheMan |
Delaying cutting down emissions and not investing vast amounts of money in renewables is not pragmatism, it's suicide. Profits are not pragmatic in the long term. [Post edited 2 Aug 2022 11:12]
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We're pretty much at the point where your post could have read "it was suicide" and "in the short term" in my opinion.
The endless bullsh!t and self-justification from these profit-obsessed cults in the face of not only environmental collapse, but imminent societal collapse is not only immoral to the extreme, but will actually be self-destructive if or when law and order breaks down as a result of their moronic greed. |  |
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