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“We have [been] told many, many lessons from some Europeans, from the western world,” Infantino said on Saturday. “I think for what we Europeans have been doing [for] the last 3,000 years we should be apologising for [the] next 3,000 years before starting to give moral lessons to people.”
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
There is certainly a lot of hypocrisy in a lot of the complaints about Qatar. For instance, will UK press turn the light on our long-standing and active support for a much worse regime in Saudi Arabia that oppresses more at home and commits atrocities abroad in Yemen and elsewhere? There’s the occasional murmur but basically no, will they f@#%. And the UK public don’t much care about that either.
But this is hypocrisy squared coming from Infantino. Certainly the wrong person to be making the point about how the West and Europe in particular have abused and profited from their empire-building and disregard for human life. That’s something we should never forget when we celebrate our history – the sheer human cost.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:24 - Nov 19 with 1502 views
In response - it is a ridiculous comment from Infantino. He has basically said 'yeah, Qatar is in the wrong, but because we've (as in our ancestors) done bad stuff in the last 3,000 years we can't really comment on it".
I was born underwater, I dried out in the sun.
I started humping volcanoes baby, when I was too young.
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:22 - Nov 19 by Dubtractor
Sorry, didn't spot this when I made my post.
No problem Dubbers, I only just spotted yours. I do love a football threads meets general threads debate! Not so much a World Cup as a World War this year....how appropriate.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:23 - Nov 19 by Darth_Koont
There is certainly a lot of hypocrisy in a lot of the complaints about Qatar. For instance, will UK press turn the light on our long-standing and active support for a much worse regime in Saudi Arabia that oppresses more at home and commits atrocities abroad in Yemen and elsewhere? There’s the occasional murmur but basically no, will they f@#%. And the UK public don’t much care about that either.
But this is hypocrisy squared coming from Infantino. Certainly the wrong person to be making the point about how the West and Europe in particular have abused and profited from their empire-building and disregard for human life. That’s something we should never forget when we celebrate our history – the sheer human cost.
I see that next year's COP conference is in the UAE. These global delegates must enjoy a little Winter sun.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Of course Europeans have the right to comment and object to 21st century slavery. Believe it or not I’ve not enslaved anybody and in many countries slavery and abuses like this were abolished long before anyone in those countries was born. Yes, they still happen, but they’re not systemic/state sponsored to my knowledge.
Should the Italians be apologising for the Romans enslaving most of Europe? The Syrians for Darius’ behaviour? France for the Norman invasion? Belgium for chopping off arms in the Congo? The French for Napoleon’s efforts? Britain for the triangular trade, India etc? Spain, Portugal for destroying South America? Where does it end?
There are still some people alive who were around when Hitler was doing his stuff but I don’t hold current Germans responsible and the time for apologies is passed. Of course Germans have the right to comment on what Putin is doing. The only real use of history is to try and avoid the mistakes and horrors of the past.
This bloke’s comments are basically a snow job to cover over the outrageous corruption and human rights abuses surrounding this appalling event. This is an event of the now and everything about it stinks. Unless his argument is that because most countries have by todays standards an unsavoury past, we have no right to comment on the present.
A ludicrous take from an individual who has no doubt been handsomely ‘paid’ officially and unofficially. Just a view.
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:34 - Nov 19 with 1445 views
I think, in the context, it is worth pointing out humans have been using alcohol before 3,000 years ago, homosexuality is a thing common to different mammals, and the first empires that arose in that time frame of 3,000 years ago-ish, as well as more recent religious cults that spread across the world, all started in the Middle East, so when it comes to empire, control and imposing morality on humans, someone set the model, just sayin’
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:24 - Nov 19 by Dubtractor
In response - it is a ridiculous comment from Infantino. He has basically said 'yeah, Qatar is in the wrong, but because we've (as in our ancestors) done bad stuff in the last 3,000 years we can't really comment on it".
Indeed, it is a case of ....
....any excuse will do.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:34 - Nov 19 by eireblue
I think, in the context, it is worth pointing out humans have been using alcohol before 3,000 years ago, homosexuality is a thing common to different mammals, and the first empires that arose in that time frame of 3,000 years ago-ish, as well as more recent religious cults that spread across the world, all started in the Middle East, so when it comes to empire, control and imposing morality on humans, someone set the model, just sayin’
His opinion is more valid than yours because he used to be ginger, or something.
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:40 - Nov 19 with 1417 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:33 - Nov 19 by Churchman
Of course Europeans have the right to comment and object to 21st century slavery. Believe it or not I’ve not enslaved anybody and in many countries slavery and abuses like this were abolished long before anyone in those countries was born. Yes, they still happen, but they’re not systemic/state sponsored to my knowledge.
Should the Italians be apologising for the Romans enslaving most of Europe? The Syrians for Darius’ behaviour? France for the Norman invasion? Belgium for chopping off arms in the Congo? The French for Napoleon’s efforts? Britain for the triangular trade, India etc? Spain, Portugal for destroying South America? Where does it end?
There are still some people alive who were around when Hitler was doing his stuff but I don’t hold current Germans responsible and the time for apologies is passed. Of course Germans have the right to comment on what Putin is doing. The only real use of history is to try and avoid the mistakes and horrors of the past.
This bloke’s comments are basically a snow job to cover over the outrageous corruption and human rights abuses surrounding this appalling event. This is an event of the now and everything about it stinks. Unless his argument is that because most countries have by todays standards an unsavoury past, we have no right to comment on the present.
A ludicrous take from an individual who has no doubt been handsomely ‘paid’ officially and unofficially. Just a view.
It isn't entirely confined to history though as Western based corporations continue to fleece global resources. Our present is very much built on the foundations of colonialism. However trying to use the above as a get out for FIFA doesn't really wash.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:40 - Nov 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
It isn't entirely confined to history though as Western based corporations continue to fleece global resources. Our present is very much built on the foundations of colonialism. However trying to use the above as a get out for FIFA doesn't really wash.
I think this is somewhat key for me.
Should we, as a nation and not individuals, apologise for the wrongs we caused on the world? Probably in my opinion.
Should I, or anyone else take responsibility for those historical things? Of course not, we were not alive.
Accept what has happened in the past, and learn from it personally.
Part of that learning is criticising the same mistakes we made. Hypocritical perhaps, but I'd take that over the death of thousands of people.
I think that we in the UK had anti homosexuality laws until the 1960s. It is a bit unrealistic to consider how a so called liberal country could have it outlawed for so long, to expect a religiously conservative country to have the same perspective, at the same pace.
It's all a big mess really.
I didn't even realise how tiny the place is. 40 square miles I heard on the radio. It doesn't even seem moral that all this money is wasted on stadia with no legacy for a vanity project. world class football grounds in a tiny radius with no point after four weeks of football.
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:40 - Nov 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
It isn't entirely confined to history though as Western based corporations continue to fleece global resources. Our present is very much built on the foundations of colonialism. However trying to use the above as a get out for FIFA doesn't really wash.
Indeed they do. I would agree that the world is very much defined by its history and colonialism is a big part of that. There is barely a country in the world that hasn’t engaged in it locally or on a big scale.
Corporations and even individuals like Musk will impose themselves on others in a benign and/or aggressive way. History tells me it is a human condition, sadly and the pessimist in me says that’ll never change. Putin is engaged in it as we speak.
But none of this detracts from what has happened in Qatar and the FIFA idiot’s assertion that nobody has a right to comment on the abuses there that have provided an event the world will be watching over the next month. An event awarded through naked corruption.
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:56 - Nov 19 with 1349 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:31 - Nov 19 by BanksterDebtSlave
I see that next year's COP conference is in the UAE. These global delegates must enjoy a little Winter sun.
Agreed.
The UAE are better than most in the region when it comes to the environment and a life after fossil fuels. But that’s still a woefully low bar. And even if the UAE will undoubtedly be affected there’s a world of difference in how a small, wealthy country will deal with it compared to say the populations of Yemen, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Pacific islanders and so on.
They should have COP in the poorest countries to show the real backdrop to this. And underline how there is no escape from the suffering and death beyond mass migration.
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:58 - Nov 19 with 1344 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:46 - Nov 19 by DanTheMan
I think this is somewhat key for me.
Should we, as a nation and not individuals, apologise for the wrongs we caused on the world? Probably in my opinion.
Should I, or anyone else take responsibility for those historical things? Of course not, we were not alive.
Accept what has happened in the past, and learn from it personally.
Part of that learning is criticising the same mistakes we made. Hypocritical perhaps, but I'd take that over the death of thousands of people.
So where do the apologies stop? It’s hard to name a country that doesn’t have dirt on its shoes on this. Does everybody apologise to everybody or do we try and learn?
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 10:03 - Nov 19 with 1322 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:56 - Nov 19 by Churchman
Indeed they do. I would agree that the world is very much defined by its history and colonialism is a big part of that. There is barely a country in the world that hasn’t engaged in it locally or on a big scale.
Corporations and even individuals like Musk will impose themselves on others in a benign and/or aggressive way. History tells me it is a human condition, sadly and the pessimist in me says that’ll never change. Putin is engaged in it as we speak.
But none of this detracts from what has happened in Qatar and the FIFA idiot’s assertion that nobody has a right to comment on the abuses there that have provided an event the world will be watching over the next month. An event awarded through naked corruption.
I am less pessimistic on the human condition but we do have a habit of allowing ourselves to be led by fools! Agree with your conclusion.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:58 - Nov 19 by Churchman
So where do the apologies stop? It’s hard to name a country that doesn’t have dirt on its shoes on this. Does everybody apologise to everybody or do we try and learn?
But we don’t apologise or learn.
Largely, the default is still “Out of sight, out of mind” as we focus on our own selfish interests. And colonialism by proxy is still colonialism.
Look at how we set up Saudi Arabia and Israel as our proxy colonies in the Middle East and help them oppress the local and neighboring populations. The only thing we seem to have learnt is not to fly our own flag.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 10:19 - Nov 19 with 1265 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 09:33 - Nov 19 by Churchman
Of course Europeans have the right to comment and object to 21st century slavery. Believe it or not I’ve not enslaved anybody and in many countries slavery and abuses like this were abolished long before anyone in those countries was born. Yes, they still happen, but they’re not systemic/state sponsored to my knowledge.
Should the Italians be apologising for the Romans enslaving most of Europe? The Syrians for Darius’ behaviour? France for the Norman invasion? Belgium for chopping off arms in the Congo? The French for Napoleon’s efforts? Britain for the triangular trade, India etc? Spain, Portugal for destroying South America? Where does it end?
There are still some people alive who were around when Hitler was doing his stuff but I don’t hold current Germans responsible and the time for apologies is passed. Of course Germans have the right to comment on what Putin is doing. The only real use of history is to try and avoid the mistakes and horrors of the past.
This bloke’s comments are basically a snow job to cover over the outrageous corruption and human rights abuses surrounding this appalling event. This is an event of the now and everything about it stinks. Unless his argument is that because most countries have by todays standards an unsavoury past, we have no right to comment on the present.
A ludicrous take from an individual who has no doubt been handsomely ‘paid’ officially and unofficially. Just a view.
I think you sum everything up perfectly. We cant keep apologising, but we can call out regimes who are downright corrupt and don't appear to want to ever change.
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 10:31 - Nov 19 with 1248 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 10:19 - Nov 19 by Broadhill
I think you sum everything up perfectly. We cant keep apologising, but we can call out regimes who are downright corrupt and don't appear to want to ever change.
“We can’t keep apologising ” ... but there have barely been any apologies.
The British Ambassador apologising to Kenya for atrocities in the 50s was pretty much a first. And that was only because surviving victims won their case.
We clearly have to be dragged into apologising for the past and learning from it even now.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Here's a good one for debate club. on 12:02 - Nov 19 with 1135 views
Here's a good one for debate club. on 10:08 - Nov 19 by Darth_Koont
But we don’t apologise or learn.
Largely, the default is still “Out of sight, out of mind” as we focus on our own selfish interests. And colonialism by proxy is still colonialism.
Look at how we set up Saudi Arabia and Israel as our proxy colonies in the Middle East and help them oppress the local and neighboring populations. The only thing we seem to have learnt is not to fly our own flag.
That’s not quite right though is it? It’s conveniently forgotten that it was Britain that took steps to abolish slavery, albeit over stages and with compensation to slave traders. Those who viewed it at the time as evil in the 18c became the majority in the 19c and it was properly abolished in 1832 then policed. The key (a point made by the historian Neil Oliver at a presentation/event he was doing) was that it was abolished when we didn’t have to. That is learning of a sort - in my view. Quickly enough? Probably not.
Slavery has existed since the dawn of time. For the Vikings, people were a currency. A nothing. For the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Saladin and the Crusaders, Scots, English you name it, the same. The Nazis viewed ‘non-aryans’, whatever they were, the same. The Dutch East India Company were not exactly the most benign and so it goes on. I don’t think anyone in those countries view people the same way now as they did then and surely that’s the point.
People saw the world very differently throughout history. What was done in many places to people across the ages is appalling to modern eyes. But for me it’s not about apologising, since I have nothing to apologise for.
Where we do have an obligation is to improve the lot of people in the poorest countries of the world, for their sake and ours. It’s a core reason why I utterly disagree with this appalling government cutting overseas aid. Use it better - yes. Cut it - no.
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