| Derby embargo lifted 09:49 - May 11 with 11489 views | FromReuserWithLove |
and I have a feeling Warne may be interested in some of our fringe players. Could see a few being of interest to an ambitious L1 side and of course he knows Ladapo very well. |  | | |  |
| Derby embargo lifted on 11:55 - May 12 with 1194 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Derby embargo lifted on 10:50 - May 12 by jayessess |
It's not odd, it's maximising the value of your assets!
Selling a player for £500k now, when you could sell for more in 12 months time or use him in 12 months time rather than pay more for someone with a similar ceiling isn't good business. Whether the difference is £250k or £5m, it'd still be bad business.
It's hard for me to tell what El Mizouni's level is. He's just had his first full season in the EFL and will have developed as a player from his last games for us. Clearly the other clubs who are interested reckon they're going to be able to realise more value for him. Derby obviously think he'll excel in League One (which would up his value considerably). Watford, whose aspirations are similar to ours, clearly think there's a good chance they realise a profit out of him. [Post edited 12 May 2023 11:03]
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You're talking like it's given though and it's not.
Let's say he moved to Derby and sits on the bench this season? Plays 15 games and a handful of subs Then what's he worth? Not more, plus he's on a shorter contract and then there is maybe less interest
Are you honestly saying you think he breaks into our 1st team in the next 2 years? I donr belive he does. Moving him allows us to something else with the money now when you have 2 or 3 clubs (allegedly) clamouring for his signature.
Lincoln thought tbe same about Teddy, a player who had championship experience, how has that gone?
QPR thought the same about Andre, how has that gone?
The key word in your post is COULD.
If we're using Watford as a guide as to how we should be doing business then we have serious issues.
You move your fringe players on and it adds to the pot, helps you bring in better than what you have, then your current 1st teamers become fringe players and you can sell them.
Add to that profits on the players you probably don't want to sell but can't turn it down and you're talking. You have to do both
That's exactly what we've been doing under GC and it's worked so far.
Under evens we clung onto players with potential until they were 24 or 25 and they left for little or no money. We have to be ruthless, he's nowhere near the 1st team, even if kicks on he's not going to be at the level we are looking to recruit at, we are in a position where 2 or 3 clubs at least are keen and can negotiate from a position of strength, why risk all that becaues he MIGHT be worth a bit more in 2 years?
None of can say, maybe he's at his max value now, maybe not. I'm not even anti sending him on loan, I'm just saying if you can get good money for him now you take it..
Either way it's a gamble, people are talking like he's going to be a champions league player once day..... only if its at Cluj or somewhere. [Post edited 12 May 2023 11:58]
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| Derby embargo lifted on 12:25 - May 12 with 1155 views | jayessess |
| Derby embargo lifted on 11:55 - May 12 by BlueandTruesince82 |
You're talking like it's given though and it's not.
Let's say he moved to Derby and sits on the bench this season? Plays 15 games and a handful of subs Then what's he worth? Not more, plus he's on a shorter contract and then there is maybe less interest
Are you honestly saying you think he breaks into our 1st team in the next 2 years? I donr belive he does. Moving him allows us to something else with the money now when you have 2 or 3 clubs (allegedly) clamouring for his signature.
Lincoln thought tbe same about Teddy, a player who had championship experience, how has that gone?
QPR thought the same about Andre, how has that gone?
The key word in your post is COULD.
If we're using Watford as a guide as to how we should be doing business then we have serious issues.
You move your fringe players on and it adds to the pot, helps you bring in better than what you have, then your current 1st teamers become fringe players and you can sell them.
Add to that profits on the players you probably don't want to sell but can't turn it down and you're talking. You have to do both
That's exactly what we've been doing under GC and it's worked so far.
Under evens we clung onto players with potential until they were 24 or 25 and they left for little or no money. We have to be ruthless, he's nowhere near the 1st team, even if kicks on he's not going to be at the level we are looking to recruit at, we are in a position where 2 or 3 clubs at least are keen and can negotiate from a position of strength, why risk all that becaues he MIGHT be worth a bit more in 2 years?
None of can say, maybe he's at his max value now, maybe not. I'm not even anti sending him on loan, I'm just saying if you can get good money for him now you take it..
Either way it's a gamble, people are talking like he's going to be a champions league player once day..... only if its at Cluj or somewhere. [Post edited 12 May 2023 11:58]
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Who's suggesting he's a future Champions League player? Or even that he's going to break into our first team in 2 years time?
I'm saying that it only makes sense to sell if we think his value has peaked. Obviously, if we think he's going to stink out the place in League One and spend the rest of his career in League Two then we should sell now.
There's an element of gambling in every transfer. But I'd say taking a transfer fee on the best young midfielder in League 2 because you're worried he'll struggle in League 1 and lose his value is a bit on the conservative side for me. |  |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 12:38 - May 12 with 1144 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Derby embargo lifted on 12:25 - May 12 by jayessess |
Who's suggesting he's a future Champions League player? Or even that he's going to break into our first team in 2 years time?
I'm saying that it only makes sense to sell if we think his value has peaked. Obviously, if we think he's going to stink out the place in League One and spend the rest of his career in League Two then we should sell now.
There's an element of gambling in every transfer. But I'd say taking a transfer fee on the best young midfielder in League 2 because you're worried he'll struggle in League 1 and lose his value is a bit on the conservative side for me. |
I'd say the opposite, holding onto a player that's nowhere near your 1st team on the basis that they might be worth a bit more if they manage another good season is conservative. Taking the moment and putting it tomuse is the more aggressive strategy.
My point was even if he has decent l1 season doesnhis value rise that much? Some yes but its nor like were going to miss out on mega money sonagakn, if we can do something with what we can get now whu wouldn't we. If we don't think he's ever going to be good enough for us thag tells its own story as to what his ceiling is. Not going to be good enough, move them on.
Have to agree to disagree. I'll trust KM and GC whatever they decide [Post edited 12 May 2023 12:41]
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| Derby embargo lifted on 12:56 - May 12 with 1127 views | jayessess |
| Derby embargo lifted on 12:38 - May 12 by BlueandTruesince82 |
I'd say the opposite, holding onto a player that's nowhere near your 1st team on the basis that they might be worth a bit more if they manage another good season is conservative. Taking the moment and putting it tomuse is the more aggressive strategy.
My point was even if he has decent l1 season doesnhis value rise that much? Some yes but its nor like were going to miss out on mega money sonagakn, if we can do something with what we can get now whu wouldn't we. If we don't think he's ever going to be good enough for us thag tells its own story as to what his ceiling is. Not going to be good enough, move them on.
Have to agree to disagree. I'll trust KM and GC whatever they decide [Post edited 12 May 2023 12:41]
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Think you're wildly over-estimating how much use £500k is going to be to us in the Championship.
On his value rising. Well, we've been looking to pay up to £2m for a good League One midfielder in his early/mid-twenties (Jack Taylor), we sold two League One midfielders at fees that were double that (Dozzell) and four times that (Downes). El Mizouni's profile wouldn't be far off those three after a productive season. | |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 13:07 - May 12 with 1106 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Derby embargo lifted on 12:56 - May 12 by jayessess |
Think you're wildly over-estimating how much use £500k is going to be to us in the Championship.
On his value rising. Well, we've been looking to pay up to £2m for a good League One midfielder in his early/mid-twenties (Jack Taylor), we sold two League One midfielders at fees that were double that (Dozzell) and four times that (Downes). El Mizouni's profile wouldn't be far off those three after a productive season. |
If 500k pays Luongos salary for a year I'd say its very helpful
Downes who ww could all see would got the PL went about £1.5 million (plus sell on) and had demonstrated he could operate at least championship level previously
Dozzell shows the folly of spending a million quid badly.
Jack Taylor figures are just mooted and based on our previous over paying for Posh players I'm not convinced is worth 2 mil.
So we're saying wait another season for maybe an extra 500k (assuming 500k is what we want which we don't know because again, its a number I plucked from thin air)
How many other clubs (us aside) are paying that kind of money flor L1 players (which El Miz isn't, yet)
Imo, given we have just gone up and need to make sure we establish ourselves back in the division at the very least, anything that comes in helps with that and that can only be a good thing.
As opposed to sitting on him because maybe, maybe not he's worth a little bit more later. | |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 13:26 - May 12 with 1079 views | hoppy |
| Derby embargo lifted on 13:07 - May 12 by BlueandTruesince82 |
If 500k pays Luongos salary for a year I'd say its very helpful
Downes who ww could all see would got the PL went about £1.5 million (plus sell on) and had demonstrated he could operate at least championship level previously
Dozzell shows the folly of spending a million quid badly.
Jack Taylor figures are just mooted and based on our previous over paying for Posh players I'm not convinced is worth 2 mil.
So we're saying wait another season for maybe an extra 500k (assuming 500k is what we want which we don't know because again, its a number I plucked from thin air)
How many other clubs (us aside) are paying that kind of money flor L1 players (which El Miz isn't, yet)
Imo, given we have just gone up and need to make sure we establish ourselves back in the division at the very least, anything that comes in helps with that and that can only be a good thing.
As opposed to sitting on him because maybe, maybe not he's worth a little bit more later. |
Mentioning Peterborough... they always sell well and get good fees for players of a similar ilk... they never seem to get relatively low fees for that kind of player with potential.
I think we will be far better at that type of thing with the current ownership/CEO direction, as player trading is quite a different ballgame with Ashton than we've previously had and he will no doubt get the best fees possible, or judge better the right time to sell an asset in that way. |  |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 13:46 - May 12 with 1046 views | jayessess |
| Derby embargo lifted on 13:07 - May 12 by BlueandTruesince82 |
If 500k pays Luongos salary for a year I'd say its very helpful
Downes who ww could all see would got the PL went about £1.5 million (plus sell on) and had demonstrated he could operate at least championship level previously
Dozzell shows the folly of spending a million quid badly.
Jack Taylor figures are just mooted and based on our previous over paying for Posh players I'm not convinced is worth 2 mil.
So we're saying wait another season for maybe an extra 500k (assuming 500k is what we want which we don't know because again, its a number I plucked from thin air)
How many other clubs (us aside) are paying that kind of money flor L1 players (which El Miz isn't, yet)
Imo, given we have just gone up and need to make sure we establish ourselves back in the division at the very least, anything that comes in helps with that and that can only be a good thing.
As opposed to sitting on him because maybe, maybe not he's worth a little bit more later. |
I mean, isn't that part of the point? We sold Downes and Dozzell after League One campaigns where the team was bad and neither of them had individually outstanding seasons, for fees that were many multiples of what we'd get for El Mizouni now.
There's no indication that the club has the kind of cashflow problems where £500k would make any difference to anything. And in any case FFP is calculated over 3 years - so revenue now or revenue next Summer doesn't matter.
Our record on selling players after very good EFL loan spells is not great. Off the top of my head we missed out on significant profits from Matt Clarke, Kieffer Moore, Jack Marriott and Jordan Rhodes. For once we seem to be a position where we aren't scrabbling around for change down the back of the sofa, we should actually take advantage of that. | |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 14:45 - May 12 with 994 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Derby embargo lifted on 07:55 - May 12 by BlueandTruesince82 |
It's about both.
It's about doing good business where we can. To scoff at a decent fee for a player who is nowhere near tbe 1st team is foolhardy IMO esp on the basis that he might be worth a bit more down the line.
How much more? Do you see him as a possible PL player. Those we in our squad we are comparing him too never have been? So to turn up your nose at 500k must mean you think he'll be worth many millions at some stage, I'm not convinced there is that much in him.
We all laughed at Simpson, 1 good half season in L2 and ge that means he'll be great he thinks? Lol was the general consensus but now after barely 6 months more suddenly we're bigging El Miz up like he's the next KDB.
A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. He's nit going g to play herez he's 22, not old of course but an age where he should be pushing to get in the squad which he isn't. Out ambition is higher and clubs are ready to put down monet now.
I'm the face of all that holding on to him because he might be worth a but more later just seems odd
Edit should add that 500k is a no I plucked our of thin air, I imagine any fee will be undisclosed so its all hypotheticals around the figures.
Though I'd be keen to know what people would take [Post edited 12 May 2023 8:26]
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I'd keep El Miz at £500k, but if someone's offering a monet I think we should sell. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 14:48 - May 12 with 982 views | hype313 |
| Derby embargo lifted on 14:45 - May 12 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'd keep El Miz at £500k, but if someone's offering a monet I think we should sell. |
They do go for big bucks these days, but not sure the club would take paintings as payment. [Post edited 12 May 2023 14:49]
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| Derby embargo lifted on 15:06 - May 12 with 933 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Derby embargo lifted on 13:46 - May 12 by jayessess |
I mean, isn't that part of the point? We sold Downes and Dozzell after League One campaigns where the team was bad and neither of them had individually outstanding seasons, for fees that were many multiples of what we'd get for El Mizouni now.
There's no indication that the club has the kind of cashflow problems where £500k would make any difference to anything. And in any case FFP is calculated over 3 years - so revenue now or revenue next Summer doesn't matter.
Our record on selling players after very good EFL loan spells is not great. Off the top of my head we missed out on significant profits from Matt Clarke, Kieffer Moore, Jack Marriott and Jordan Rhodes. For once we seem to be a position where we aren't scrabbling around for change down the back of the sofa, we should actually take advantage of that. |
I think the point is in Downes you really are comparing apples and oranges he was already proved at Champioonship level and in Dozzell we see how quickly a players value can drop off, would anyone spend a million on him now?
Clarke is a bit of Red Herring, he was part of tbe deal for Webster. I'll admit we should of kept him but Evans needed the money and we still got a profit.
Jack Marriot looking back I'd say it was right we let him go, again his big fee came of the back of one good season and he's hasn't come close to justifying that kind of money since.
Moore, fair enough but he never looked like being a player whilst he was here did he. As I've said there is a risk, we can mitigate against it somewhat and we need to press on now.
Rhodes yes but then it was clear he would score goals, anyone could see that, he started from a higher ceiling but you can't account for Keane being a nob
Again for every example you give I can point to a Teddy Bishop as a counter weight.
We're going round in circles making the same arguments at this stage so we'll have to wait and see and if and when El Miz moves somewhere for millions you can say Intold you so and I be fine with that.
He's nowhere nearr our team, he's isn't going to be. If money is on the table now then I think take it. Be aggressive, use it wisely. You disagree that's fine, as I've said for every players that's kicks on there are more who don't, were all just guessing but it worked for us last season so why shouldn't it now. I don't see the point in holding onto players for maybe, we've done it for too long under Evans and its mostly got us nowhere
I can't go round in circles on it any more becaues it's just the same arguments in different orders at this point | |
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| Derby embargo lifted on 16:36 - May 12 with 893 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Derby embargo lifted on 14:48 - May 12 by hype313 |
They do go for big bucks these days, but not sure the club would take paintings as payment. [Post edited 12 May 2023 14:49]
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Well that doesn't paint Ashton in a very good light. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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