| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? 17:49 - Aug 24 with 4351 views | DJR |
As the former has been ruled out by both parties, it looks like we are in for the latter.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/aug/24/uk-faces-stark-choice-of-higher
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/tax-and-public-finances-fundamentals
The report also suggests the need for tax reform with the following example being rather striking.
The tax liability incurred by an individual generating £40,000 of income varies across three different legal forms. The differences are stark. For an employee, the tax liability for a job generating £40,000 of income is £11,326. That compares with £8,135 for a
self-employed person and just £6,604 when the income is earned through a company (allowing it to be paid out partially in the form of dividends). Even these figures will understate the degree of disparity in cases where business owners are able to take income in the form of capital gains which are often taxed at lower rates than dividends
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:46 - Aug 25 with 1295 views | DanTheMan |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:41 - Aug 25 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
What are talking about? Are you saying my Economics tutors, and current industry are/were pushing conspiracy theories. Stay off Qanon mate. |
He's talking about people conflating discussions about globalism which is all fine and dandy and an unfortunate coopting of the term used by conspiracy theorists who label people globalists who want to create a one world Government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory)
There's some overlap but when people you don't know start talking about the issues with globalism or globalists, it's very hard to know which route they are going to go down.
I don't think Bankster is a conspiracy theorist. |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:47 - Aug 25 with 1294 views | DJR |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:44 - Aug 25 by jayessess |
In what sense do those things affect the Middle Class? The median income in the UK is £27,756 p.a. To pay the higher rate at £125k you would have to be in the 99th UK percentile for income.
The tax burden in Britain is not especially high. As a proportion of GDP it is 7.2% lower than the EU14 average (the 14 states that made up the EU pre-2004), where GDP per capita is also higher on average. All those countries make more money, then spend a higher proportion of it on public services, so ... their public services are better. Not rocket science really.
(As an aside, the talking point that Britain's tax burden is "the highest since the war" is rather misleading. The tax burden in Britain was largely stable between 2005 to 2020, then rose sharply during 2021, largely because there was a boom in corporate profits during Covid. That still didn't take the tax burden into "highest since the war" territory, that line comes from an ONS projection for 2027-28, based on the tax bands remaining the same and wages continuing to rise with inflation)
Politicians in Britain love a "well, actually, it's more complicated than that", which is why when it comes to discussing public services, there's always this argument that "throwing money at the problem isn't enough", followed by a load of largely pie in the sky stuff about increasing efficiency or private sector innovation or new technology. But, generally speaking, the problem with the UK's public services and infrastructure is that we get what we pay for. [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 9:51]
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Very well put.
Sadly though, it is impossible to have a rational debate about these issues, and especially taxation, with, for example, many people whipped into a frenzy about inheritance tax they will never pay given the existence of an up to £1 million pound exemption (depending on the value of the family home) on the death of a surviving spouse with children. [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 10:20]
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:48 - Aug 25 with 1292 views | itfcjoe |
The state pension burden gets bigger and bigger and without growth in the economy we simply can't afford to pay for it.
There won't be a state pension when I'm old enough to retire, but I effectively pay into it every week, plus a Govt mandated auto enrolment pension.
In 2 years time we will be spending more on state pension than we will on the police, defence and education combined. It's a terrible use of funds and the triple lock has exacerbated that totally.
There needs to be some form of means testing for it, because there are big swathes of pensioners in poverty who need what they get and more, but there are so many who just don't require it, who are sitting on so much wealth, who are costing the state moment with complex health needs etc.....but no one will dare touch it - so they will just keep squeezing the middle further and further until the pips squeak |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:58 - Aug 25 with 1264 views | Darth_Koont |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 08:47 - Aug 25 by Herbivore |
The Tories are the root cause, mate. |
You’re right but those roots have taken hold far beyond the Conservative party.
There’s clearly been a right-wing economic consensus across the main parties for over 20 years. Barring 2015-2019 when the possibility of social democracy and actually investing in the UK, its services, infrastructure and people was on the table.
We seem ultimately blinded by the impression (drip-fed by our right-wing media) that the market and its assumed efficiencies will always find a way. But markets don’t care much about building for the future and need to see returns over a much more limited and profit-driven timeframe. The sort of shallow approach that doesn’t address the underlying challenges in our economy and society but does line pockets and sees much, much more money and career opportunities thrown at our political class in return. |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:09 - Aug 25 with 1249 views | Darth_Koont |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:44 - Aug 25 by jayessess |
In what sense do those things affect the Middle Class? The median income in the UK is £27,756 p.a. To pay the higher rate at £125k you would have to be in the 99th UK percentile for income.
The tax burden in Britain is not especially high. As a proportion of GDP it is 7.2% lower than the EU14 average (the 14 states that made up the EU pre-2004), where GDP per capita is also higher on average. All those countries make more money, then spend a higher proportion of it on public services, so ... their public services are better. Not rocket science really.
(As an aside, the talking point that Britain's tax burden is "the highest since the war" is rather misleading. The tax burden in Britain was largely stable between 2005 to 2020, then rose sharply during 2021, largely because there was a boom in corporate profits during Covid. That still didn't take the tax burden into "highest since the war" territory, that line comes from an ONS projection for 2027-28, based on the tax bands remaining the same and wages continuing to rise with inflation)
Politicians in Britain love a "well, actually, it's more complicated than that", which is why when it comes to discussing public services, there's always this argument that "throwing money at the problem isn't enough", followed by a load of largely pie in the sky stuff about increasing efficiency or private sector innovation or new technology. But, generally speaking, the problem with the UK's public services and infrastructure is that we get what we pay for. [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 9:51]
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Well said.
Increasingly, it seems that the real problem with our economy and society is our inability/unwillingness to deal with reality. | |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:34 - Aug 25 with 1225 views | chicoazul |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 09:58 - Aug 25 by Darth_Koont |
You’re right but those roots have taken hold far beyond the Conservative party.
There’s clearly been a right-wing economic consensus across the main parties for over 20 years. Barring 2015-2019 when the possibility of social democracy and actually investing in the UK, its services, infrastructure and people was on the table.
We seem ultimately blinded by the impression (drip-fed by our right-wing media) that the market and its assumed efficiencies will always find a way. But markets don’t care much about building for the future and need to see returns over a much more limited and profit-driven timeframe. The sort of shallow approach that doesn’t address the underlying challenges in our economy and society but does line pockets and sees much, much more money and career opportunities thrown at our political class in return. |
If there is a right wing consensus, why is the country in so much debt? |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:45 - Aug 25 with 1206 views | jayessess |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:34 - Aug 25 by chicoazul |
If there is a right wing consensus, why is the country in so much debt? |
What's the relationship between those two things supposed to be?
UK debt relative to GDP was significantly lower than now between 1964 and 1980, yet every time I hear about the 1970s the period is referenced as some mad failed experiment in socialism.
UK debt was considerably higher between 1926 and 1936, widely regarded historically as periods of considerable austerity and fiscal orthodoxy, under mostly Conservative chancellors schooled in classical liberal economics.
Levels of public debt are shaped by all sorts of things that either aren't within the power of national governments to control (ie. global recessions) or simply don't map onto a binary where the left is pro-debt and the right is anti-debt (for e.g. Truss' tax cuts were in a direct sense pro-debt, but were certainly conservative in motivation). |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:53 - Aug 25 with 1186 views | giant_stow |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 22:21 - Aug 24 by DJR |
But in the example I gave in the OP, the ordinary employee is bearing the burden more than the self-employed or those who have set up a company.
And in Westminster (which has properties valued in the tens of millions), the top council tax rate (Band H) is 1,824.10 which is less than a Band C property where I live.
As the report suggests, there needs to be reform (as well as increases) which, as well as making the system fairer, might actually benefit the ordinary person. [Post edited 24 Aug 2023 22:26]
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I'll stick my neck out and say that it's right for the self employed or business owners to pay less tax. They take more risks and have far less employment rights. Apologies. |  |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:54 - Aug 25 with 1184 views | chicoazul |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:45 - Aug 25 by jayessess |
What's the relationship between those two things supposed to be?
UK debt relative to GDP was significantly lower than now between 1964 and 1980, yet every time I hear about the 1970s the period is referenced as some mad failed experiment in socialism.
UK debt was considerably higher between 1926 and 1936, widely regarded historically as periods of considerable austerity and fiscal orthodoxy, under mostly Conservative chancellors schooled in classical liberal economics.
Levels of public debt are shaped by all sorts of things that either aren't within the power of national governments to control (ie. global recessions) or simply don't map onto a binary where the left is pro-debt and the right is anti-debt (for e.g. Truss' tax cuts were in a direct sense pro-debt, but were certainly conservative in motivation). |
Well for a start there is noting conservative about neoliberalism or Ayn Rand. Truss was a very incompetent and stupid revolutionary not a conservative.
What I am saying is, there is not a right wing consensus but a left wing one and has been for decades. It’s not right wing to shut the economy for instance. People will say we had to do it but I disagree. | |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 11:23 - Aug 25 with 1156 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:53 - Aug 25 by giant_stow |
I'll stick my neck out and say that it's right for the self employed or business owners to pay less tax. They take more risks and have far less employment rights. Apologies. |
Everyone thinks we should pay more tax unless it’s themselves.
People are always railing about City bonuses on here, but for virtually all of them 50pc will go straight into the treasury. The richest people in this country are not on PAYE and will pay a much lower % in CGT on their dividends. If you want to tax the genuinely wealthy you need to target business owners. |  | | |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 11:26 - Aug 25 with 1151 views | jayessess |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:54 - Aug 25 by chicoazul |
Well for a start there is noting conservative about neoliberalism or Ayn Rand. Truss was a very incompetent and stupid revolutionary not a conservative.
What I am saying is, there is not a right wing consensus but a left wing one and has been for decades. It’s not right wing to shut the economy for instance. People will say we had to do it but I disagree. |
To have a meaningful discussion about what's left/right/conservative, I think you've got to have some sort of shared political taxonomy. If your starting point is that neo-liberalism is not fundamentally a development of late 20th Century conservativism, then that's a pretty idiosyncratic map you're working from and quite difficult to have a coherent conversation around.
The advocates of neo-liberal economics all saw themselves in the classical conservative traditions, did their work largely (although sadly not exclusively) in classic conservative parties, appealed to classic conservative doctrine and won elections largely with conservative support. Think it's hard to see them as not being within that politics and really the dominant part of it for several decades.
The lockdowns I find hard to place as a left/right policy really. Some variety of lock down was adopted by almost every government around the world. The partial exception being Sweden, under a social democrat. Economic restrictions during wars and crises are pretty common. Was rationing during the Second World War left or right? Was the Marshall Plan during the Cold War left or right? Not sure they were either.
(Also, I'm not sure why a series of exceptional emergency measures adopted for a year rank as an indication of a decades long consensus but neoliberalism doesn't) [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 11:32]
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 11:35 - Aug 25 with 1123 views | Darth_Koont |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:34 - Aug 25 by chicoazul |
If there is a right wing consensus, why is the country in so much debt? |
Because we bail out businesses and corporations at the heart of our fair-weather economy rather than people.
I get a lot of the logic (if businesses fail so do many workers and their families) but then we’ll still squeeze those who can least afford it with austerity, stagnant wages and in-work poverty for the sake of a fraction of the overall debt.
Privatising profit and socialising the costs strikes me as a particularly neo-liberal, right-wing wheeze. | |
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 12:50 - Aug 25 with 1061 views | DJR |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 10:53 - Aug 25 by giant_stow |
I'll stick my neck out and say that it's right for the self employed or business owners to pay less tax. They take more risks and have far less employment rights. Apologies. |
There is something in what you say, but I am not sure that, say, those on zero hours contracts have much in the way of rights. And when it comes to company failures, it is often the staff that suffer more than the owners. Taking Wilko as an example, I can't believe the CEO has or will suffer financially, and the actual owners will be protected by limited liability.
And whilst there has been something of a clamp-down on bogus self-employment (done really for tax purposes), this is certainly not an area where someone like Gary Lineker takes much in the way of risks. Nor really do tradespeople in times (like much of the last 20 years) when home improvements are such an important feature of the housing market.
However, the reforms would in my view have to recognise issues that the self-employed might have (lack of sick pay). [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 13:03]
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| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 12:14 - Aug 27 with 885 views | DJR |
| Higher taxes or a decline in public services? on 12:50 - Aug 25 by DJR |
There is something in what you say, but I am not sure that, say, those on zero hours contracts have much in the way of rights. And when it comes to company failures, it is often the staff that suffer more than the owners. Taking Wilko as an example, I can't believe the CEO has or will suffer financially, and the actual owners will be protected by limited liability.
And whilst there has been something of a clamp-down on bogus self-employment (done really for tax purposes), this is certainly not an area where someone like Gary Lineker takes much in the way of risks. Nor really do tradespeople in times (like much of the last 20 years) when home improvements are such an important feature of the housing market.
However, the reforms would in my view have to recognise issues that the self-employed might have (lack of sick pay). [Post edited 25 Aug 2023 13:03]
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This article indicates the distinction between employees and workers, the latter of whom have far fewer right than employees. It also comments on the fact that Labour are backtracking on plans to bring the two into line.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/27/labour-backtracking-casual | | | |
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