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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257163 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:21 - Dec 5 with 2433 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:10 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

I remember reading the testimony at the time from the girl in your linked article, who saw another young girl being gang raped by Hamas terrorists before before being shot in the head mid rape. She said how they cut off one of the girl's breasts and tossed it about like a toy.

I hadn't realised until yesterday that her breast was cut of during the rape. Sickening.

At the time, Banksy was more offended that the witness had called the rapists "Palestinians".

It took 57 DAYS for the UN's women's rights body to condemn Hamas' rape. Where marches against these sickening acts of sexual violence?

edit. I make no apology for posting this again. I think it got one reply the last time I linked it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/01/israel-hamas-war-rape-isra
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 20:16]


It is pure evil. Nothing justifies it. Nobody should excuse it or trivialise it.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:24 - Dec 5 with 2418 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:21 - Dec 5 by Rob88

It is pure evil. Nothing justifies it. Nobody should excuse it or trivialise it.


And nobody on here is ... nor the Israeli response.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:34 - Dec 5 with 2378 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:24 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

And nobody on here is ... nor the Israeli response.


Unfortunately I am not as convinced as yourself.

There is also a lot of false moral equivalence.

Good to see the UN stepping in to sort things out………….
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:36 - Dec 5 with 2362 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:34 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Unfortunately I am not as convinced as yourself.

There is also a lot of false moral equivalence.

Good to see the UN stepping in to sort things out………….


There are certainly some who are giving some worrying comments that imply acceptance of Israel's genocidal response. I am sure they don't mean to, though.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:46 - Dec 5 with 2310 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:36 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

There are certainly some who are giving some worrying comments that imply acceptance of Israel's genocidal response. I am sure they don't mean to, though.


Genocidal of who?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:00 - Dec 5 with 2264 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:34 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Unfortunately I am not as convinced as yourself.

There is also a lot of false moral equivalence.

Good to see the UN stepping in to sort things out………….


Can you outline when it starts to become a moral equivalence?

4000+ women and children dead doesn't seem to be the threshold, can you tell us what is?

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:04 - Dec 5 with 2224 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:36 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

There are certainly some who are giving some worrying comments that imply acceptance of Israel's genocidal response. I am sure they don't mean to, though.


I haven't seen one person on here justifying the Israeli government's response. Which is disproportionate, indiscriminate and killing fr too many innocent civilians.

There is wanting Hamas to be completely wiped out and there is disagreeing with the Israeli government's method of doing that. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I would imagine that both of us want the same thing for both the people of Israel and the people of Palestine. Where we differ is that I don't believe there can ever be a negotiated peace with the people who carried out the barbaric acts of October 7th. And you think they can be negotiated wioth in the same manner the British Government did with Sinn Fein and the IRA.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:05 - Dec 5 with 2250 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:46 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Genocidal of who?


As I say, implicit.

EDIT: you know as well as I do the Palestinian people are the ones suffering from the Israeli government's actions.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:23]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:12 - Dec 5 with 2224 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:05 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

As I say, implicit.

EDIT: you know as well as I do the Palestinian people are the ones suffering from the Israeli government's actions.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:23]


?

Interesting you aren’t readily willing to elaborate.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:13]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:15 - Dec 5 with 2203 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:12 - Dec 5 by Rob88

?

Interesting you aren’t readily willing to elaborate.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:13]


Let's put it another way then.

Do you think the actions of Israel are appropriate and justifiable?

EDIT in response to your edit, interesting you appear to be attempting to justify it.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:16]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:18 - Dec 5 with 2183 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:04 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

I haven't seen one person on here justifying the Israeli government's response. Which is disproportionate, indiscriminate and killing fr too many innocent civilians.

There is wanting Hamas to be completely wiped out and there is disagreeing with the Israeli government's method of doing that. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I would imagine that both of us want the same thing for both the people of Israel and the people of Palestine. Where we differ is that I don't believe there can ever be a negotiated peace with the people who carried out the barbaric acts of October 7th. And you think they can be negotiated wioth in the same manner the British Government did with Sinn Fein and the IRA.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:05]


Perhaps you should try reading Rob88's replies.

EDIT: I would also ask how you propose a peaceful settlement without negotiation (even if indirect). You have been asked that several times by several posters and I haven't seen you reply.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:20]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:23 - Dec 5 with 2115 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:18 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

Perhaps you should try reading Rob88's replies.

EDIT: I would also ask how you propose a peaceful settlement without negotiation (even if indirect). You have been asked that several times by several posters and I haven't seen you reply.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:20]


I have replied to that. Several times. Rather than repeat myself, I'll try to dig out one of those previous replies. If I can't find it I will reply again, but I'm watching the second half of the Arsenal v Luton game and I don't want you to think I'm being ignorant by not replying.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:25 - Dec 5 with 2047 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:23 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

I have replied to that. Several times. Rather than repeat myself, I'll try to dig out one of those previous replies. If I can't find it I will reply again, but I'm watching the second half of the Arsenal v Luton game and I don't want you to think I'm being ignorant by not replying.


There you go. On this very thread.

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? by GlasgowBlue 29 Nov 2023 19:23
It depends on what is trying to be negotiated.

If it is some peace and stability, whilst maintaining the status quo, the Israeli should do everything within it's power to prop up Fatah in Gaza once Hamas are out of the way.

But why would Fatah, or anyone from the PA deal with Netanyahu and his coalition of ultra religious zealots. They aren't honest brokers.

Besides which, Abbas and the Fatah leadership are old, weak and don't have the support of the Palestinian people.

In an ideal world, we will reach the stage where Netanyahu and Ben Gvir take the fall for terrible lapse in security on October 7th, and a new government is selected. Probably too much to ask for as moderate party to win as Israel is in siege mode. We saw this in 1996 when Peres lost the election when a two state solution was as close as it has ever been, then Hamas launched a series of suicide attacks and handed the election to Netanyahu. A sliding doors moment. Well done Hamas. Screwed the Palestinian pole over again.


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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:37 - Dec 5 with 2054 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:00 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue

Can you outline when it starts to become a moral equivalence?

4000+ women and children dead doesn't seem to be the threshold, can you tell us what is?

SB


Where are you getting your numbers from?

No doubt there are civilian casualties, and everyone of them a tragedy.

It’s strange that you think that there would be a number that is acceptable.

I personally don’t think any number is a good number.

The tragic consequence of war is civilians are always caught in the cross-fire.

What makes this war all the more difficult is the terrorist organisation have embedded themselves within the civilian population.

I think for me the nuance with this is the intent. I completely reject the notion, as there is no evidence whatsoever to support it, that the killing of civilians is deliberate on behalf of the Israelis, let alone that their intent is genocide (if it weren’t so grotesque I think that notion would be laughable).

I would like to see a cessation of hostilities in Gaza personally, but Hamas has to go. I don’t know how you square that circle. You can make the argument that if you can’t eradicate it and that if one falls another will rise but I find that argument bizarre. It’s a blank cheque to a terrorist organisation except it is number of lives of non-believers and not money.

Personally, as I have said many times I think the UN should keep true to their founding charter and play a bigger part. That should see them ensure Hamas cannot commit atrocities and that the Palestinian lives are valued more than they currently appear to be. Problem with that is I think the UN are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:42 - Dec 5 with 2033 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:05 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

As I say, implicit.

EDIT: you know as well as I do the Palestinian people are the ones suffering from the Israeli government's actions.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:23]


You think Israel is trying to eliminate the Palestinian people?

Just so you know, that is mad!

You must also think, for one of the most modern and capable militaries in the world, they are making a meal of it against an effectively defenceless population. You must be tapping your watch thinking, they not done it already.

Doesn’t stack logically does it.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:46 - Dec 5 with 2020 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:34 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Unfortunately I am not as convinced as yourself.

There is also a lot of false moral equivalence.

Good to see the UN stepping in to sort things out………….


Nobody here has defended, or not been shocked/saddened by the attack on 7th Oct, it was evil. You however seem to be thoroughly encouraged by Israel's response. This is no longer Hamas using a few civilians as human shields, it's full on ethnic cleansing. Those Palestinians 'lucky' enough to still be alive are being advised to move to baron areas with no water, shelter or sanitation. That is equally evil to the Hamas attacks. Thousands of women and children killed by indiscriminate bombing and now thousands will likely die of disease. If you think that's acceptable, then you yourself are evil.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:48 - Dec 5 with 2009 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:18 - Dec 5 by Nthsuffolkblue

Perhaps you should try reading Rob88's replies.

EDIT: I would also ask how you propose a peaceful settlement without negotiation (even if indirect). You have been asked that several times by several posters and I haven't seen you reply.
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 21:20]


Lol
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:54 - Dec 5 with 1973 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:46 - Dec 5 by noggin

Nobody here has defended, or not been shocked/saddened by the attack on 7th Oct, it was evil. You however seem to be thoroughly encouraged by Israel's response. This is no longer Hamas using a few civilians as human shields, it's full on ethnic cleansing. Those Palestinians 'lucky' enough to still be alive are being advised to move to baron areas with no water, shelter or sanitation. That is equally evil to the Hamas attacks. Thousands of women and children killed by indiscriminate bombing and now thousands will likely die of disease. If you think that's acceptable, then you yourself are evil.


How would you stop what I posted happening again?

See my answer about the UN involvement and Hamas being the governing authority for Palestine regarding the looming humanitarian crisis.

Btw beware of the numbers being reported. I am sure they are horrifically high but I believe the numbers as much as I believe in Father Christmas.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:56 - Dec 5 with 1965 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:37 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Where are you getting your numbers from?

No doubt there are civilian casualties, and everyone of them a tragedy.

It’s strange that you think that there would be a number that is acceptable.

I personally don’t think any number is a good number.

The tragic consequence of war is civilians are always caught in the cross-fire.

What makes this war all the more difficult is the terrorist organisation have embedded themselves within the civilian population.

I think for me the nuance with this is the intent. I completely reject the notion, as there is no evidence whatsoever to support it, that the killing of civilians is deliberate on behalf of the Israelis, let alone that their intent is genocide (if it weren’t so grotesque I think that notion would be laughable).

I would like to see a cessation of hostilities in Gaza personally, but Hamas has to go. I don’t know how you square that circle. You can make the argument that if you can’t eradicate it and that if one falls another will rise but I find that argument bizarre. It’s a blank cheque to a terrorist organisation except it is number of lives of non-believers and not money.

Personally, as I have said many times I think the UN should keep true to their founding charter and play a bigger part. That should see them ensure Hamas cannot commit atrocities and that the Palestinian lives are valued more than they currently appear to be. Problem with that is I think the UN are about as much use as a chocolate fire guard.


The numbers have been discussed many times in this thread, they are pretty much agreed on by numerous external agencies including MSF, UN, Unicef etc. I am surprised given your heavy involvement that you've not seen those discussions.

Can I ask why you have questioned the numbers?

I don't think any number is acceptable but I am not the one trying to obfuscate around a moral equivalence. GB has labelled the bombing "disproportionate and indiscriminate" - if you agree with that then how can it not be deliberate that there are civilian casualties? You don't avoid them by being indiscriminate and disproportionate.

So we are back to the original question, why don't you think there is a moral equivalence? Even if you think there isn't an equivalence in the method there most certainly is in the result.

Saying that all the casualties are a tragedy but that Hamas has to go is getting tiresome - it's essentially excusing the killing of large numbers of innocents for an end goal which suits your view.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:57 - Dec 5 with 1964 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:54 - Dec 5 by Rob88

How would you stop what I posted happening again?

See my answer about the UN involvement and Hamas being the governing authority for Palestine regarding the looming humanitarian crisis.

Btw beware of the numbers being reported. I am sure they are horrifically high but I believe the numbers as much as I believe in Father Christmas.


Why don't you believe the numbers? Is it because you don't want it on your conscience?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:57 - Dec 5 with 1958 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:46 - Dec 5 by noggin

Nobody here has defended, or not been shocked/saddened by the attack on 7th Oct, it was evil. You however seem to be thoroughly encouraged by Israel's response. This is no longer Hamas using a few civilians as human shields, it's full on ethnic cleansing. Those Palestinians 'lucky' enough to still be alive are being advised to move to baron areas with no water, shelter or sanitation. That is equally evil to the Hamas attacks. Thousands of women and children killed by indiscriminate bombing and now thousands will likely die of disease. If you think that's acceptable, then you yourself are evil.


This. Which bit of Gaza are they all supposed to move to now?

Which bit is NOT according to IDF, a Hamas hideout?

And how do they even check these maps and QR codes with no power of communications....

And where do they get water, food, medical care, etc etc even when they go there?

Its genocidal.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:58 - Dec 5 with 1958 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:54 - Dec 5 by Rob88

How would you stop what I posted happening again?

See my answer about the UN involvement and Hamas being the governing authority for Palestine regarding the looming humanitarian crisis.

Btw beware of the numbers being reported. I am sure they are horrifically high but I believe the numbers as much as I believe in Father Christmas.


"Btw beware of the numbers being reported. I am sure they are horrifically high but I believe the numbers as much as I believe in Father Christmas."

Can you please retract this statement? It's misinformation.

The numbers have been confirmed by numerous independent and external agencies, to cast doubt on them is pretty unacceptable and you've be all over it if someone did something similar the other way around.

SB
[Post edited 5 Dec 2023 22:58]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:17 - Dec 5 with 1902 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:56 - Dec 5 by StokieBlue

The numbers have been discussed many times in this thread, they are pretty much agreed on by numerous external agencies including MSF, UN, Unicef etc. I am surprised given your heavy involvement that you've not seen those discussions.

Can I ask why you have questioned the numbers?

I don't think any number is acceptable but I am not the one trying to obfuscate around a moral equivalence. GB has labelled the bombing "disproportionate and indiscriminate" - if you agree with that then how can it not be deliberate that there are civilian casualties? You don't avoid them by being indiscriminate and disproportionate.

So we are back to the original question, why don't you think there is a moral equivalence? Even if you think there isn't an equivalence in the method there most certainly is in the result.

Saying that all the casualties are a tragedy but that Hamas has to go is getting tiresome - it's essentially excusing the killing of large numbers of innocents for an end goal which suits your view.

SB


Have they independently verified them and if so how so?

I have questioned the numbers as I imagine it is bl00dy difficult to keep tally in such circumstances, in addition the numbers, as far as I understand it are originating from a terrorist organisation. I’ve never really trusted those kinds of things tbh.

Why do I think raping someone to death is different from someone losing their life as a tragic consequence of war. Seriously, are you asking me that?

So you think Hamas should exist?

I’ll tell you what I really think, the whole thing is a fcking mess.

The bit I struggle with is the lack of balance with some people.

I can completely understand the Israelis wanting to eliminate Hamas. Look at the American response (and most of the NATO counties) after 911. I think of it had happened on your street, your family, your friends, you’d feel the same. I am also able to hold two conflicting thoughts at once, so I also understand and sympathise with the plight of the ordinary Palestinian who want nothing to do with Israel, nothing to do with Hamas and just wants to live like you or I, at home in peace.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:21 - Dec 5 with 1889 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:57 - Dec 5 by noggin

Why don't you believe the numbers? Is it because you don't want it on your conscience?


I don’t want it on my conscience?

This is desperate stuff.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:22 - Dec 5 with 1885 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:17 - Dec 5 by Rob88

Have they independently verified them and if so how so?

I have questioned the numbers as I imagine it is bl00dy difficult to keep tally in such circumstances, in addition the numbers, as far as I understand it are originating from a terrorist organisation. I’ve never really trusted those kinds of things tbh.

Why do I think raping someone to death is different from someone losing their life as a tragic consequence of war. Seriously, are you asking me that?

So you think Hamas should exist?

I’ll tell you what I really think, the whole thing is a fcking mess.

The bit I struggle with is the lack of balance with some people.

I can completely understand the Israelis wanting to eliminate Hamas. Look at the American response (and most of the NATO counties) after 911. I think of it had happened on your street, your family, your friends, you’d feel the same. I am also able to hold two conflicting thoughts at once, so I also understand and sympathise with the plight of the ordinary Palestinian who want nothing to do with Israel, nothing to do with Hamas and just wants to live like you or I, at home in peace.


"Look at the American response (and most of the NATO counties) after 911."

Exactly, a million killed, and for what?

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