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A couple of interesting articles, the first based on analysis in Haaretz a left wing Israeli newspaper, the second from a left wing Israeli website. The latter suggests that the current campaign is deliberately much less targeted than previous campaigns in Gaza.
Of course I can't vouch for any of this, but the following passages from the second article give pause for thought.
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets”.
The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”
According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.
In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:02 - Dec 10 with 3421 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:28 - Dec 10 by DJR
A couple of interesting articles, the first based on analysis in Haaretz a left wing Israeli newspaper, the second from a left wing Israeli website. The latter suggests that the current campaign is deliberately much less targeted than previous campaigns in Gaza.
Of course I can't vouch for any of this, but the following passages from the second article give pause for thought.
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets”.
The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”
According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.
In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.
It's completely clear that isreal is deliberately aiming for the destruction of civilian infrastructure and treating the children of Gaza as permissable military targets. Or 'collateral damage' as people have called Gazas children previously on here. The sickening siege of Gazas children needs to end now
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:25 - Dec 11 with 3229 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Dec 9 by DJR
"We hope the humanitarian organisations can get their act together and provide the support that is required."
I listened to this on the World at One yesterday and thought the Israeli spokesman came across as pretty callous when it came to the plight of civilians.
[Post edited 9 Dec 2023 9:22]
An Israeli spokesman has recently tweeted that the UN must do better when it comes to aid, even though humanitarian assistance is the responsibility of the occupying power.
But this from the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs indicate just how difficult things are.
Tens of thousands of IDPs, who have arrived in Rafah (in the south) since 3 December, continued facing extreme overcrowded and dire conditions both inside and outside shelters. They wait for hours in large crowds around aid distribution centres, in desperate need of food, water, shelter, health, and protection. In the absence of an adequate number of latrines, open-air defecation is widespread, increasing concerns of the spread of disease particularly during rains and related flooding.
The Rafah governorate remained the main area in Gaza where limited aid distributions are taking place. Aid distribution in the rest of the Gaza Strip has largely stopped over the past few days due to the intensity of hostilities and restrictions of movement along the main roads, except for limited fuel deliveries to key service providers, and the abovementioned convoy to al Ahli hospital.
On 10 December, as of 22:00, 100 trucks carrying humanitarian supplies entered from Egypt into Gaza, the same volume as in most days since the resumption of hostilities on 1 December. This is well below the daily average of 500 truckloads (including fuel) that entered every working day prior to 7 October. The ability of the UN to receive incoming aid has been significantly impaired over the past few days by several factors. These include a shortage of trucks within Gaza; telecommunications blackouts; and the increasing number of staff who were unable to travel to the Rafah crossing due to the intensity of hostilities.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:21 - Dec 13 with 3125 views
תיעוד שיוצא מרצועת עזה הבוקר.רוב תשומת הלב ממוקדת בקרבות,באבידות במטרות ובהצהרות והוויכוח על היום שאחרי,אבל עבור מאות אלפים לקבל אוהל תקני זה כמו וילה.לרוב אין אוהלים וביום גשום כזה המצב מחפיר.בעזה יש גם טורים ולעמוד שעות כדי לקבל פיתה או שקית קמח ואפילו להטעין את הטלפון. pic.twitter.com/JcYjlDBRvp
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:21 - Dec 13 by DJR
This from the Haaretz journalist, Jack Khoury.
תיעוד שיוצא מרצועת עזה הבוקר.רוב תשומת הלב ממוקדת בקרבות,באבידות במטרות ובהצהרות והוויכוח על היום שאחרי,אבל עבור מאות אלפים לקבל אוהל תקני זה כמו וילה.לרוב אין אוהלים וביום גשום כזה המצב מחפיר.בעזה יש גם טורים ולעמוד שעות כדי לקבל פיתה או שקית קמח ואפילו להטעין את הטלפון. pic.twitter.com/JcYjlDBRvp
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:21 - Dec 13 by DJR
This from the Haaretz journalist, Jack Khoury.
תיעוד שיוצא מרצועת עזה הבוקר.רוב תשומת הלב ממוקדת בקרבות,באבידות במטרות ובהצהרות והוויכוח על היום שאחרי,אבל עבור מאות אלפים לקבל אוהל תקני זה כמו וילה.לרוב אין אוהלים וביום גשום כזה המצב מחפיר.בעזה יש גם טורים ולעמוד שעות כדי לקבל פיתה או שקית קמח ואפילו להטעין את הטלפון. pic.twitter.com/JcYjlDBRvp
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:43 - Dec 13 by noggin
Tragic! And a perfect breeding ground for disease. If the rockets don't kill them, the dysentery will.
This today from Reuters.
The United Nations humanitarian office said on Wednesday that Gaza faced a “public health disaster” due to the collapse of its health system and the spread of disease caused by overcrowding.
“We all know that the health care system is or has collapsed,” said Lynn Hastings, the U.N. Humanitarian Coordinator for the Occupied Palestinian Territory.
“We’ve got a textbook formula for epidemics and a public health disaster.”
The United Nations and aid groups have sounded the alarm about the spread of infectious disease in Gaza, where the internal displacement of 85% of the population has caused overcrowding in shelters and other temporary living facilities.
WHO has reported a sharp uptick in acute respiratory infections, diarrhoea, lice, scabies and other fast-spreading diseases.
Hastings said people in Gaza had to line up for hours just to access a toilet.
“You can imagine what the sanitation conditions are like,” she said.
WHO said on Tuesday that only 11 of Gaza’s 36 hospitals were partially functional, one in the north and 10 in the south of the enclave.
Hasting said that almost half of Gaza’s population of 2.3 million was now in Rafah in the southern tip of the enclave to escape Israeli bombardment.
“This is leading to nothing but a health crisis,” she said.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:28 - Dec 13 with 2917 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:07 - Dec 10 by leitrimblue
It's completely clear that isreal is deliberately aiming for the destruction of civilian infrastructure and treating the children of Gaza as permissable military targets. Or 'collateral damage' as people have called Gazas children previously on here. The sickening siege of Gazas children needs to end now
I know you are being facetious but it does seem that some right-wingers in Israel are happy for Hamas to get increased support so that they can label all Palestinians as supporters of Hamas and make a justification for expelling all of them from the land controlled (or to which access is controlled) by Israel.
It is as if they do not even realise that they have already been found out. on 20:04 - Dec 13 by WeWereZombies
I know you are being facetious but it does seem that some right-wingers in Israel are happy for Hamas to get increased support so that they can label all Palestinians as supporters of Hamas and make a justification for expelling all of them from the land controlled (or to which access is controlled) by Israel.
Edit: Thread title changed yet again
[Post edited 14 Dec 2023 10:30]
Heres the key. Israeli ambassador saying, this mornibg, 'absolutely no' to any two state solution.
Which means israeli occupation and control forever.
And yet they will still claim not to understand why Hamas is an attractive place for dispossessed, oppressed people who see them as the only entity willing or able to stand up for them. They have little to lose.
'Israel's ambassador to the UK has said the country would not accept a two-state solution after the war in Gaza ends.
Asked about the prospect of Palestinians having their own state, Tzipi Hotovely told Sky News: "Absolutely no."
The two-state solution is the idea that establishing an independent Palestine alongside Israel would create a way for the two peoples to co-exist peacefully.
The policy is supported by Israel's close ally the US and other Western nations.'
So it is either regime change in Israel or an internationally imposed Palestinian state that is required to give any hope of peace.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:28 - Dec 10 by DJR
A couple of interesting articles, the first based on analysis in Haaretz a left wing Israeli newspaper, the second from a left wing Israeli website. The latter suggests that the current campaign is deliberately much less targeted than previous campaigns in Gaza.
Of course I can't vouch for any of this, but the following passages from the second article give pause for thought.
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets”.
The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
“Nothing happens by accident,” said another source. “When a 3-year-old girl is killed in a home in Gaza, it’s because someone in the army decided it wasn’t a big deal for her to be killed — that it was a price worth paying in order to hit [another] target. We are not Hamas. These are not random rockets. Everything is intentional. We know exactly how much collateral damage there is in every home.”
According to the investigation, another reason for the large number of targets, and the extensive harm to civilian life in Gaza, is the widespread use of a system called “Habsora” (“The Gospel”), which is largely built on artificial intelligence and can “generate” targets almost automatically at a rate that far exceeds what was previously possible. This AI system, as described by a former intelligence officer, essentially facilitates a “mass assassination factory.”
According to the sources, the increasing use of AI-based systems like Habsora allows the army to carry out strikes on residential homes where a single Hamas member lives on a massive scale, even those who are junior Hamas operatives. Yet testimonies of Palestinians in Gaza suggest that since October 7, the army has also attacked many private residences where there was no known or apparent member of Hamas or any other militant group residing. Such strikes, sources confirmed to +972 and Local Call, can knowingly kill entire families in the process.
In the majority of cases, the sources added, military activity is not conducted from these targeted homes. “I remember thinking that it was like if [Palestinian militants] would bomb all the private residences of our families when [Israeli soldiers] go back to sleep at home on the weekend,” one source, who was critical of this practice, recalled.
The above post related to so-called targeted attacks but the following suggests 40-45% of attacks are not even targeted.
Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since 7 October have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs”, a new US intelligence assessment says, according to a report by CNN.
The network’s report says:
The assessment, compiled by the office of the director of national intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided. The rest have been precision-guided munitions, the assessment says.
Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.
Experts told CNN that if Israel is using unguided munitions at the rate the US believes they are, that undercuts the Israeli claim that they are trying to minimise civilian casualties.
“I’m extremely surprised and concerned,” said Brian Castner, a former explosive ordnance disposal officer who now serves as Amnesty International’s senior crisis adviser on arms and military operations.
He said:
It’s bad enough to be using the weapons when they are precisely hitting their targets. It is a massive civilian harm problem if they do not have that accuracy, and if you can’t even give a benefit of the doubt that the weapon is actually landing where the Israeli forces intended to.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:25 - Dec 14 by redrickstuhaart
Heres the key. Israeli ambassador saying, this mornibg, 'absolutely no' to any two state solution.
Which means israeli occupation and control forever.
And yet they will still claim not to understand why Hamas is an attractive place for dispossessed, oppressed people who see them as the only entity willing or able to stand up for them. They have little to lose.
Looks cynical and intentional.
Apologies for not replying directly to your post, I was still drafting my previous one when it landed on the forum.
'Israel's ambassador to the UK has said the country would not accept a two-state solution after the war in Gaza ends.
Asked about the prospect of Palestinians having their own state, Tzipi Hotovely told Sky News: "Absolutely no."
The two-state solution is the idea that establishing an independent Palestine alongside Israel would create a way for the two peoples to co-exist peacefully.
The policy is supported by Israel's close ally the US and other Western nations.'
So it is either regime change in Israel or an internationally imposed Palestinian state that is required to give any hope of peace.
I don't think regime change in Israel will make any difference because my view is that the mood in Israel has changed for the good. Of course, Netanyahu appears to be doomed, but I am seeing very little criticism in Israel of the war aims, which with its emphasis on security seem to me to also rule out a two state solution.
And without Israel playing ball, there is no chance of an internationally imposed Palestinian state.
I don't think regime change in Israel will make any difference because my view is that the mood in Israel has changed for the good. Of course, Netanyahu appears to be doomed, but I am seeing very little criticism in Israel of the war aims, which with its emphasis on security seem to me to also rule out a two state solution.
And without Israel playing ball, there is no chance of an internationally imposed Palestinian state.
Netanyahu is on borrowed time and will pay the price for the lapse in security on October 7th. More than half the country had already opposed hisa far-right government’s judicial reform. So put that and 7/10 together and he is finished. I'd say the same goers for his hard right religious extremists in coalition with him, who will also share the blame.
But he won't be replaced as Prime Minister by the leader of the Labor Party. The new government will probably be Likud led but hopefully alongside centrist parties like National Unity and Yesh Atid. Those two parties should tone down the judiciary reforms and will not support increased settlement-building in the West Bank. However, after 7/10, they will be in no mood to start negotiating with the PA.
'Israel's ambassador to the UK has said the country would not accept a two-state solution after the war in Gaza ends.
Asked about the prospect of Palestinians having their own state, Tzipi Hotovely told Sky News: "Absolutely no."
The two-state solution is the idea that establishing an independent Palestine alongside Israel would create a way for the two peoples to co-exist peacefully.
The policy is supported by Israel's close ally the US and other Western nations.'
So it is either regime change in Israel or an internationally imposed Palestinian state that is required to give any hope of peace.
It's thoroughly depressing isn't.
We have large scale pro-palestinian marches singing for the non-existence of Israel whilst the Israeli state is firmly against the existence of Palestine. I just don't see how there is any hope of peace in this part of the world given the two diametrically opposed positions right now.
We have large scale pro-palestinian marches singing for the non-existence of Israel whilst the Israeli state is firmly against the existence of Palestine. I just don't see how there is any hope of peace in this part of the world given the two diametrically opposed positions right now.
Awful.
This is a welcome statement from the Foreign Secretary.
Extremist settlers, by targeting and killing Palestinian civilians, are undermining security and stability for both Israelis and Palestinians.
Israel must take stronger action to stop settler violence and hold the perpetrators accountable.
It's so obvious really. It's difficult to think of a better way to create a generation of angry extremists then what is going on now in Gaza. It's almost if certain right wing Isreali politicians know they wouldn't stand a chance of election with a peaceful and prosperous Palestine on there doorstep...
We have large scale pro-palestinian marches singing for the non-existence of Israel whilst the Israeli state is firmly against the existence of Palestine. I just don't see how there is any hope of peace in this part of the world given the two diametrically opposed positions right now.
Awful.
I doubt very much that everyone on marches in support of a ceasefire are desiring the non-existence of the Israeli state. I very much hope that it is a minority that are singing songs for it. Here is an excellent Palestinian singer (as part of a project devised by London Jew Leon Rosselson) who I saw back in the time of the suicide bombers and who shouted from the stage 'I don't want to die for Palestine, I want to live for Palestine':
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:43 - Dec 14 by leitrimblue
It's so obvious really. It's difficult to think of a better way to create a generation of angry extremists then what is going on now in Gaza. It's almost if certain right wing Isreali politicians know they wouldn't stand a chance of election with a peaceful and prosperous Palestine on there doorstep...
This from an article in Haaretz yesterday appears to prove your point.
Poll Shows High Palestinian Support of Hamas, Overwhelming Majority Wants Abbas Out
42 percent of those polled in Gaza and 44 percent in the West Bank said they supported Hamas; 88 percent, overall, wanted Abbas to resign; and the most popular politician was revealed as Marwan Barghouti, a prisoner in an Israeli jail
A wartime opinion poll among Palestinians published Wednesday shows a rise in support for Hamas, which appears to have ticked up, even in the devastated Gaza Strip, as well as an overwhelming rejection of Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas, with nearly 90 percent saying he must resign.
The findings by a Palestinian pollster signal more difficulties ahead for the Biden administration's postwar vision for Gaza and raise questions about Israel's stated goal of ending Hamas' military and governing capabilities.
The survey was conducted from Nov. 22 to Dec. 2 among 1,231 people in the West Bank and Gaza and had an error margin of 4 percentage points. In Gaza, poll workers conducted 481 in-person interviews during a weeklong cease-fire that ended Dec.1.
Shikaki, who runs regular polls, said the error margin was one percentage point higher than usual because of disruptions caused by the mass displacement of residents during the Israel-Hamas war.
44 percent in the West Bank said they supported Hamas, up from just 12 percent in September. In Gaza, Hamas had 42 percent support, up slightly from 38 percent three months ago.
It has to be pointed out that we are, as usual, only following the US.
And it appears to me to be more a case of window dressing, because it doesn't target Israeli politicians who encourage the settlers, or the IDF which turns a blind eye to settler violence. It also ignores the elephant in the room, Gaza.
Netanyahu is on borrowed time and will pay the price for the lapse in security on October 7th. More than half the country had already opposed hisa far-right government’s judicial reform. So put that and 7/10 together and he is finished. I'd say the same goers for his hard right religious extremists in coalition with him, who will also share the blame.
But he won't be replaced as Prime Minister by the leader of the Labor Party. The new government will probably be Likud led but hopefully alongside centrist parties like National Unity and Yesh Atid. Those two parties should tone down the judiciary reforms and will not support increased settlement-building in the West Bank. However, after 7/10, they will be in no mood to start negotiating with the PA.
If National Unity are centrists then there really is no hope.
It has to be pointed out that we are, as usual, only following the US.
And it appears to me to be more a case of window dressing, because it doesn't target Israeli politicians who encourage the settlers, or the IDF which turns a blind eye to settler violence. It also ignores the elephant in the room, Gaza.
[Post edited 15 Dec 2023 13:54]
And settlers are not the only ones attacking civilians in the West Bank, if this is anything to go by.
Our teams are witnessing a shocking increase in Israeli attacks against civilians in Jenin, the West Bank. Attacks on healthcare have also increased dramatically and become systematic... pic.twitter.com/RXHFkvxhsg
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